422 réponses à ce sujet

[GreenClover]

Melca36 wrote...
My husband says Fenris is the "THANE KRIOS' of Dragon Age 2

Gosh, I agree with your husband. Fenris indeed belongs to that nice dramatic, too much tragical kind of male characters so many girls and women are fond of. Mm, no offence. I'm just tired of all this drama. I like easy and optimistic people, and Fenris with his "Grrr-I-was-a-slave-my-life-is-so-terrible-I'm-all-alone-no one-understands-me-and-mages-suck!" draws me mad.

Modifié par GreenClover, 29 août 2011 - 05:39 .

[phaonica]

berelinde wrote...
by your own arguments, see below, we must base our assumptions on what we see. We cannot assume that the sample we are seeing is not representative of the whole. We see that Varania has been freed, therefore, if we're going to go by what the game shows us, it's something that happens.

You cannot assume that the sample we are seeing *is* representative of most, either. Otherwise, since a significant number of the mages we see in game are blood mages, we could assume that sample of blood mages is representative of most mages. We see a mage Hawke living mostly uninhibited by Templars. It is something that happens. Does that mean someone could assume that single example is representative of how apostates as a whole are treated in Kirkwall?

I'm not trying to argue that one assumption is correct and the other isn't. I was only trying to express that I am not going to make a judgement like "slaves are better off than mages" when such a judgment is based on a generalized assumption.

Sorry, I am not about to acknowledge that people who have been deliberately brain damaged are shining examples of civil equality. Owain voluntarily submitted to the Rite of Tranquility, but we already know that in Kirkwall, at least, the Rite is forced upon unwilling victims. It is in Ferelden, too, if you remember Jowan, but in Kirkwall, refusing to allow rape by a templar is enough to warrant it.

I didn't say they were. You said that you can't talk to them, not that their information was meaningless to you. You also said that you can't talk to the gallows mages, yet somehow you know about the abuse they are experiencing because they *told* you. So either you can talk to them or you can't.

They are not even allowed control over their own bodies. Templars take what they want and the mages are powerless to resist. Sure, Decimus was a bit sick from the start, but Alain ran away becuse Karras was raping him every night and there was no other way to stop the abuse.
Bethany herself is protected by her relationship to Hawke, but even she acknowledges that mages are routinely subjected to abuse of all flavors. Even non-mages who try to help them are quietly executed while the Order superiors look on and do nothing.

All of this may be true in the Kirkwall Circle, but just because it's true of one Circle doesn't mean it's representative of all of them. Furthermore, even if it were happening in *several* Circles, that doesn't make it representative of all of them. Even further, the abusive actions of several Templars aren't representative of all templars. If you want to argue that the Templar Order and Chantry dogma is inherently oppressive, then that's fine, but to cite these individual cases as examples of the overall mage condition I think is an overgeneralization. These things arguably didn't happen because Chantry dogma is oppressive; these things happened because individual Templars were being abusive.

The Chantry is a religion, not government. ... I do object to someone saying that one group has a right to oppress another group because of an accident of birth.

For what it is worth, I generally agree with you. I think that even if it worked as intended, the white Chantry stystem has permanent internment, which I don't agree with.

Fenris can barely fathom what it even means to be free, so its possible that he views the world as mostly being divided by the masters and and the slaves. Perhaps in his view, a society where the non mages are the masters is perferable to a world where the mages are the masters, not just because he is a non mage, but also because people in general (mages and non mages alike) seem to fare better in the places where the mages aren't the masters. He might be biased, and/or he might be wrong, but I don't find him to be worthy of hatred.

  If we saw more non-apostate mages strolling through Kirkwall, shopping for trinkets or chatting with friends over tea, it would have made the issue seem far less black and white.

That might have worked. If the devs wanted to make the templar side more sympathetic than it was in DAO, they maybe could have turned the abuse down a notch by showing that the Chantry has been know to afford mages more freedoms than previously assumed. I commend the attempt, however. It can't be easy to come up with a scenario that attempts to justify internment to the game's audience for the sake of creating an interesting conflict.

But then, without the oppression, the mages would never have rebelled and there would have been no need for DA3.

Or DA3 could just be about something else.

Modifié par phaonica, 29 août 2011 - 07:40 .

[berelinde]

phaonica wrote...
He might be biased, and/or he might be wrong, but I don't find him to be worthy of hatred.

Wait, is that what this is all about? I don't hate Fenris. I'm not a fan, but I don't actually dislike him. All I'm saying is that his inability to see mages as anything other than slavers with superpowers is really rather limiting, especially given the ample evidence he sees every day that mages in Ferelden and the Free Marches are powerless to stop the abuses done to them. At that point, it isn't ignorance or lack of intelligence that prevents him from acknowledging that Tevinter slaves are not the only ones to have suffered. It's plain old stubbornness.

  If we saw more non-apostate mages strolling through Kirkwall, shopping for trinkets or chatting with friends over tea, it would have made the issue seem far less black and white.

That might have worked. If the devs wanted to make the templar side more sympathetic than it was in DAO, they maybe could have turned the abuse down a notch by showing that the Chantry has been know to afford mages more freedoms than previously assumed. I commend the attempt, however. It can't be easy to come up with a scenario that attempts to justify internment to the game's audience for the sake of creating an interesting conflict.

I suppose that's why almost every mage you see in the game turns into an abomination at one point or another.

It's like making lemonade. You put lemon and sugar in a glass, fill it up with ice and water, and give it a stir. It's too sweet so you dump in a gallon of lemon juice. And then it's too sour, so you add a 5-pound bag of sugar. Wouldn't it have made more sense to add a little bit of each at a time until it was just right?

[sonoko]

GreenClover wrote...

Melca36 wrote...
My husband says Fenris is the "THANE KRIOS' of Dragon Age 2

Gosh, I agree with your husband. Fenris indeed belongs to that nice dramatic, too much tragical kind of male characters so many girls and women are fond of. Mm, no offence. I'm just tired of all this drama. I like easy and optimistic people, and Fenris with his "Grrr-I-was-a-slave-my-life-is-so-terrible-I'm-all-alone-no one-understands-me-and-mages-suck!" draws me mad.

My husband also finds Fenris and Thane very similar and hates both of them with passion.  
But, imo, Fenris is slightly more bearable. At least he can joke. Sometimes. And he isn't going to die very tragically and tear-inducingly from some very tragic and tear-inducing illness.  

[Jestina]

Does anyone else ever mistake Fenris for a walking corpse during battle?

[mesmerizedish]

No way. Corpses can't get ERECTIONS.

[devSin]

Well, at least that armor comes with an easy-access port, for timely release.

I love how his default plate gets a micro chin guard, while Hawke gets a freaking toaster oven. Overcompensate much?

Modifié par devSin, 29 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[Jestina]

That armor probably weighs more than him, No more scrawny emo warriors Bioware.

[mousestalker]

People, if there were no Fenris, then there wouldn't be any Fenders smut and then where would we be?

Sheesh...

[NamiraWilhelm]

hate threads make the baby jesus cry

[berelinde]

That armor is seriously disturbing. Wonder how high somebody's location-specific blood pressure would have to be to displace that much chain mail. And walking around is probably something that happens to other people.

[phaonica]

berelinde wrote...

phaonica wrote...
He might be biased, and/or he might be wrong, but I don't find him to be worthy of hatred.

Wait, is that what this is all about?

Well it wasn't directed at you, so much as the sentiment of the thread title, and was probably a oversimplification of my own stance.

All I'm saying is that his inability to see mages as anything other than slavers with superpowers is really rather limiting, especially given the ample evidence he sees every day that mages in Ferelden and the Free Marches are powerless to stop the abuses done to them. At that point, it isn't ignorance or lack of intelligence that prevents him from acknowledging that Tevinter slaves are not the only ones to have suffered. It's plain old stubbornness.

I do agree that his stance is rather black and white. I would argue the same for a lot of the other DA2 characters, too. It's not that he can't see the helplessness of the mages before the templars, it's that he believes that, were the tables turned and the mages were in charge, that the picture would be worse. He doesn't seem to trust that there is an inbetween because he believes power entices people to gravitate towards a system of masters and slaves. Including his comment "I see no oppression here,"  I don't see this skewing as being stubborness so much as a conditioning and desensitizing that he will probably eventually overcome.

I might agree that he is stubborn in his belief that he thinks the white circle system is less oppressive overall (not just to mages) than the black circle system is, but I don't attribute his stubborness to the refusal to see any oppression in the white circle system at all.

Modifié par phaonica, 29 août 2011 - 09:23 .

[devSin]

berelinde wrote...

That armor is seriously disturbing. Wonder how high somebody's location-specific blood pressure would have to be to displace that much chain mail.

I wonder if he could just phase it through the suit. The ultimate quick and dirty.

[mousestalker]

Besides, wouldn't it chafe? Of course some that bulk could be padding...

[Jestina]

Its one of those old scarfs that Hawke finds in a crate. Maybe he was trying to impress Isabella with his rigging.

[berelinde]

Edit: weird. Posted to the wrong thread. And it included a quote from the other thread.

Modifié par berelinde, 29 août 2011 - 09:36 .

[berelinde]

phaonica wrote...
I might agree that he is stubborn in his belief that he thinks the white circle system is less oppressive overall (not just to mages) than the black circle system is, but I don't attribute his stubborness to the refusal to see any oppression in the white circle system at all.

This is the part where I back out of the thread and say "Whatever."

You don't see it like that? Fine, you don't see it like that. Because our perceptions of the thought processes and mindset of a fictional character are never going to agree. Perception is a funny thing, influenced by a lot of factors. Apparently, it really is possible for people to buy the exact same game and find after they have installed it that the games have nothing in common.

[phaonica]

berelinde wrote...

You don't see it like that? Fine, you don't see it like that. Because our perceptions of the thought processes and mindset of a fictional character are never going to agree. Perception is a funny thing, influenced by a lot of factors. 

Apparently.

Modifié par phaonica, 29 août 2011 - 09:53 .

[Melca36]

mousestalker wrote...

People, if there were no Fenris, then there wouldn't be any Fenders smut and then where would we be?

Sheesh...

Can't stand Fenders fan fiction. It makes no sense to have those characters together.

[Sinaxi]

phaonica wrote...

Tidra wrote...

How is it he expects every single other person that plays this game to not equate loss of emotion with a loss of free will?

I can't think of any real-world examples just now, but bear with me. What about Star Trek Vulcans? Their entire society is based around suppressing emotions as much as possible in favor of reason and logic, yet they seem to have free will.

To use a Star Trek reference again (sorry), what about Lieutenant Commander Data? He is portrayed as not just suppressing emotion but being incapable of emotion, yet he is also portrayed as taking actions that imply both a personality and free will.

I know that these are also fantasy-setting examples, but they are examples of how someone with no emotion can be portrayed as having free will.

Okay...I suppose I could have made my post like, more...open. I don't think that people that choose to not listen to their emotions are inevitably cut off from free will, and many machines ultimately learn to have free will - that argument was more going off what constitutes as "personhood" or what makes someone...something. Which I was just briefly touching on as well, but I will get back to free will.

But the problem is within the Dragon Age universe I can only go by what I have seen. Tranquil, at times, remind me of children. Or people that are seriously on drugs and have no idea what is even going on around them. I'm joking, but...my point was that when a person (who USED to live by emotion) is effectively cut off from this, and apparently has no other real aspirations in life other than the craft he or she works on (that they probably weren't doing before they were made Tranquil) and doesn't even hold to the same beliefs (such as being forced into being made Tranquil, and then having no problem with your life whatsoever) it makes me wonder how much free will is actually there.

The reason I say that, is because I am thinking about the person they USED to be - not just "WHO" they are now. Karl wanted to die rather than be Tranquil, but as a Tranquil he would have never taken his own life - where was his free will there? I go back to the examples of the Mages that Alrik was raping, where was their free will there? Everything I have seen of Tranquil has led me to believe that they are so very susceptible to suggestion, or "rules" or whatever you want to call it that it's almost as if they either don't care/don't know any better. That does not remind me of people that are supposed to be "logical, reasonable, and have free will" so it does not seem to even really fit with a Vulcan perspective. The Tranquil, as far as I have seen, are only so much reasonable/logical/focused, etc, on whatever their craft is...and to a point that it can sometimes be dangerously so (Owain and his stockroom). If they were actually reasonable, and logical, I just find it hard to believe that they would not act in a different matter concerning many things I have seen in the game.

This is why I just honestly have a hard time believing the "free will" bit, because too much of what I've seen is me going "Wtf?" when it comes to Tranquil. It's not logic or reason, it's like there is nothing there. And they most certaintly are not even remotely similar to the person that they used to be before they were made Tranquil, which is why I argue that once you're Tranquil - how is it you have free will if it's like someone just ripped the core of your being out of you? If someone loses all their sense of what they were passionate about, or what they wanted out of life...it's not really free will at all to me, despite their "new" self possibly being able to make some decisions..which like I said, I rarely see.

Majority of the time it seems like Tranquil are following rules, or are just in their own little world with not a single care except their work. That's...not even living to me. Okay...say Anders was made Tranquil (which yes I know he has Justice in him so not even sure that's possible) but if he was....and everything he believed in and all his passion, rage, and even love for Hawke was taken from him he has effectively already lost his free will because he just lost basically everything he was living for. That is a fate worse than death, I would say. You walk, you talk, you do things...but you aren't there. There is a huge difference between trying to not live by emotion, such as Jedi, and effectively having none to the point where you are an awake sleepwalker...if that..makes..any sense. Bad analogy.

I'm not saying this because I want to be like 'OMG GUYS, TRANQUIL ARE SLAAAAAVESS!' since that's what I was talking about first on this thread. But I honestly just don't see much reason or logic from Tranquil, I would assume a reasonable Tranquil would not stand around in the Circle Tower while abominations were running rampant...I'm just saying.

mousestalker wrote...

People, if there were no Fenris, then there wouldn't be any Fenders smut and then where would we be?

Sheesh...

We would be in a better world.

Modifié par Tidra, 29 août 2011 - 11:42 .

[phaonica]

Okay...I suppose I could have made my post like, more...open. I don't think that people that choose to not listen to their emotions are inevitably cut off from free will, and many machines ultimately learn to have free will - that argument was more going off what constitutes as "personhood" or what makes someone...something. Which I was just briefly touching on as well, but I will get back to free will.

I think that the argument that a Tranquil is not a "person" and that a Tranquil doesn't have "free will" are two different arguments. I would agree that free will is a requirement for personhood, but that emotions aren't, and that I think that while the Tranquil don't have emotions, they do have free will, and therefore imo qualify for having personhood.

  when a person (who USED to live by emotion) is effectively cut off from this,... it makes me wonder how much free will is actually there.

I agree that the person who USED to be is effectively gone. I even agree that it can be thought of as a kind of execution/murder of the former person. I do think that the new person is indeed a person with free will, but that the person they WERE is gone.

Karl wanted to die rather than be Tranquil, but as a Tranquil he would have never taken his own life - where was his free will there?

I don't know. He isn't back from Tranquilty long enough to tell us more about what it's like. If the former consciousness is constantly aware of being trapped within the Tranquil form, then I agree that that sounds worse to me than the former consciousness simply being gone. However, since Karl is the only person we've ever heard of coming back from Tranquility, temporary or not, I'm not willing to assume that Karl's distress is typical, yet.

I go back to the examples of the Mages that Alrik was raping, where was their free will there?

I think there is a difference between having free will and having the ability to exercise it.

Everything I have seen of Tranquil has led me to believe that they are so very susceptible to suggestion, or "rules" or whatever you want to call it that it's almost as if they either don't care/don't know any better. That does not remind me of people that are supposed to be "logical, reasonable, and have free will" so it does not seem to even really fit with a Vulcan perspective. The Tranquil, as far as I have seen, are only so much reasonable/logical/focused, etc, on whatever their craft is...and to a point that it can sometimes be dangerously so (Owain and his stockroom). If they were actually reasonable, and logical, I just find it hard to believe that they would not act in a different matter concerning many things I have seen in the game.

Well, like Owain himself said, as I quoted him earlier, everyone responds differently to different things. Generally the Tranquil might be more susceptible to suggestion, but it doesn't necessarily mean they don't have free will. If you're suggesting that despite their claims, that the Tranquil are also neither logical nor reasonable, than that again is a whole other argument.

[N7 Leto]

A love letter to Fenris

 

Dear Fenris,

 

From when I first met you, I could see that beneath your tough facade was
a man who wanted nothing more than to be released from the horrible chase and
given a chance for a fresh start on a life that did not involve killing.

 

I saw the fragments of the kind, good-hearted, and happy soul within ...
and the dark, brooding, hateful, and hypocritical mask that you cloaked that
part of yourself with.  I saw how you did
not even want to acknowledge that part of yourself and sought to kill even
those few fragments with alcohol, cynicism, tough talking, brutality, and more alcohol.

 

In the few moments where you have let your soul within shine (AND IT SHINED
BRILLIANTLY) through to me, you showed that deep down you really did not want
to become a heartless bastard and that I was possibly really the last hope for
you to avoid that future.  In those moments,
I witnessed your despair, crying out, and pleading for a Hawke who would do
anything to not let Fenris become a merciless killer, culling everyone and anyone
who did not meet Fenris's approval.

 

I wanted so much to hold and comfort you and tell you that you no longer
had to run, you no longer had to worry, and you no longer had to suffer.  I wanted so much to help you find a better
way of overcoming your hatred than brooding in your home, consuming bottle after
bottle of alcohol, and slaughtering everyone you felt had or would contribute
to your hatred.  It breaks my heart,
Fenris, to watch you do these things while knowing that you are trying so hard
to kill the last shreds of hope and goodness within you.

 

Please, Fenris, calm down and let the lyrium within your skin
rest.  Don't take my words the wrong
way.  I am not agreeing with those you hate.  I'm shedding a tear right now dreading that
you'll hear words of oppression and controlling from me.  I want nothing more than for you to be
happy.  You have seen what happens to
those who lust for power, letting it corrupt them absolutely.  I have seen what happens to those who lust
for vengeance, letting it corrupt them absolutely.

 

Remember our visit to the Fade, Fenris? 
The demon convinced you to forget the corruption of power and had you
try to kill me, but I willingly and determinedly forgave you.  Would you have done the same for me had the
demon chosen to corrupt me and I tried to kill you?  I love you, Fenris.  I want to believe that you could and would
have been able to see the same goodness in me that I saw in you, I really do.  But you have repeatedly tried to push me away
and stubbornly refuse to let go of your past.

 

Fenris, please, I beg that you trust me.  If Danarius or ANYBODY shows up and threatens
to do ANYTHING you don't want done to you, trust me, as a friend and a lover,
to stand by your side whatever you choose to do.  When the time comes and the opportunity is
ripe for revenge, I beg of you to listen to yourself.  If you decide that killing Danarius will
finally set you free, I will help you to do so, even though I know I will have
to watch you kill the part of you I love so much.  If you decide that you want to go back to the
Tevinter Imperium and take your anger and hate out on everyone who you feel
slighted you, I will be the first to join you, even though I would have to
watch the man I love die more and more.

 

Please, Fenris, lay your weapon down.  Don't give in to the lust for vengeance.  I implore you to let me help you build a
different life free from killing and violence. 
If you don't want to live with me because you value your independence, I
understand.  I AM NOT DANARIUS.   I would never try to make your decisions for
you or put myself above you.  I hope you
also believe that I treat you as an equal. 
If you like living in Danarius's house, I will use my influence with the
viscount to give it to you.  If you like
keeping it exactly how it was after that night, I'm happy that you're
happy.  But please Fenris, I beg you,
don't live in Danarius's house to constantly remind you of your past.  I hope every day that you will eventually
acknowledge that special part of you.

 

Please, Fenris, don't push me away. 
Let me hold you and touch you.  I promise
to not touch the parts of your skin with lyrium, because I know you don't like
it.  Let me into your life.  I promise to never abuse your trust.  Let me try to help you overcome your fear of intimacy
and release you from your wounds in the past.

 

With deep love,

 

Hawke

 

 

 

 

 

 

*****

 

 

 

 

 

Oh Fenris ... why did Bioware put a good man like you into a game like Dragon
Age 2?

 

I swear, I tried so hard to treat the game as just an action RPG and the
characters as nothing but aggregations of attributes and abilities.  Alas, I can't.  I've really, really tried, but I can't. 



Every time Fenris kills, I feel a little part of my real life soul shaken
to the core.  Every time he raises his
sword and shouts out a heartless phrase in a bloodbath, I want to cry.  I cannot do anything to prevent Fenris from
killing the part of himself that I admire. 


 

Every time I see Fenris killing massive numbers of mobs, I have to look
away.  For me, Fenris is a good man
yearning desperately (even if he does not want to acknowledge it) for a life
free from violence and bloodshed.  Why
must he be forced to suffer either killing numerous times or be relegated to
his house to brood, sadly knowing that his lover has rejected him as a
companion.

 

Seriously, this is really tearing me up writing this.  I want to be able so much to play a Hawke who
sees the goodness in Fenris and helps him to live a different life, but I
can't.  He won't let me.  The game won't let me.

 

So I am forced to bring him along (I will NOT leave him to brood) and watch
him kill.  The game won't even let me request
that he stay out of battle.

 

Oh, gosh - why Fenris, why?  I
was fine with ALL the other companions.  I could play the game and enjoy Varric's
antics, Wynne's mage, Anders's Justice, Isabella's and Zevran's carefree
attitudes, Merrill's blood mage, Thane's assassin, Samara's Justicar, Zaeed's
& Garrus's & Grunt's show-them-no-mercy, etc.

 

None of them made my heart bleed in the way Fenris does.  Fenris did not want to be a merciless killer,
yet I have no choice but to condemn him to becoming a vicious killing machine.  The other characters in Dragon Age and Mass
Effect wanted their place on my team. 
Fenris tries desperately (even if he does not indicate so outright, his behavior
betrays him: BROODING FOR THREE YEARS STRAIGHT? 
There is something very wrong there.) to let Hawke know he wants
something different besides the life he is forced into living.

 

Every time I play Dragon Age 2 and watch Fenris fight, I feel like I am
INDOCTRINATING him, turning him into a "living weapon" fueled by lyrium
and hate.  I have become a Reaper,
turning him into nothing more than a tool without a soul.  ;-(

 

 

 

 

 

*****

 

 

 

 

ASSUMING CONTROL OF THIS DRONE

 

 

 

 

 

*****

 

 

 

 

 

OH-KAY, Harbinger says ENOUGH, IT'S JUST A DARN GAME.  No need to get teary-eyed.  I wish Bioware hadn't put Fenris in as a
companion.  Why couldn't we have just had
the standard de-facto action hero like Garrus or bad boy like Zaeed?  Someone who loves killing and bloodshed and
has a history of loving killing and bloodshed and is also full of I'M GOING TO
PUMP YOU FULL OF LEAD quotes.  I wouldn't
nearly have cared so much and the game could have been just HOT SEX KILL STUFF YEAH
BABY.  Much more fun that way.  I can't believe I wrote all this for a VIDEO
GAME CHARACTER.

 

[mesmerizedish]

Garrus and Zaeed don't have large enough penises.

[Sinaxi]

phaonica wrote...
I think that the argument that a Tranquil is not a "person" and that a Tranquil doesn't have "free will" are two different arguments. I would agree that free will is a requirement for personhood, but that emotions aren't, and that I think that while the Tranquil don't have emotions, they do have free will, and therefore imo qualify for having personhood.

I said it was a different argument, at least that was what I meant which is why I stopped talking about it.

Karl wanted to die rather than be Tranquil, but as a Tranquil he would have never taken his own life - where was his free will there?

I don't know. He isn't back from Tranquilty long enough to tell us more about what it's like. If the former consciousness is constantly aware of being trapped within the Tranquil form, then I agree that that sounds worse to me than the former consciousness simply being gone. However, since Karl is the only person we've ever heard of coming back from Tranquility, temporary or not, I'm not willing to assume that Karl's distress is typical, yet.

And that is my point, they took away the person that they actually were and left them as a shell. They have no free will, because now it's like an alien being is walking around in their own damn body...and I still consider that body THEIRS, the person who formerly inhabited that consciousness, which is why I will continue to say that they have lost their free will.

And since Karl instantly knew that he had been made Tranquil, I wouldn't just say he has no idea what happened to him. "I'd rather die than live as a Templar puppet." The minute he fades, he goes back into the confused Tranquil state "Why do you look at me like that?" He comments on how it felt being Tranquil, how devoid it was of anything. It doesn't even matter if he is constantly in the background, the mere fact that he has been turned is terrible enough and there is absolutely nothing he can do about it until Anders comes...that body is his, that consciousness is his, and it was taken from him. Not free will.

I go back to the examples of the Mages that Alrik was raping, where was their free will there?

I think there is a difference between having free will and having the ability to exercise it.

Uh, yes there is a difference....but in this case it directly has to do with the fact that the game's dialogue leads the player to believe that the Tranquil just go along with it because they honestly don't know any better. The Tranquil in the Gallows is all "I am Ser Alrik's, only HE can command me!" because she honestly believes this based on what he has told her, and apparently the rape is all cool. So once again, where was the free will there? He turns them into his own personal sex toys, and they don't OBJECT to this. That is not reasonable, it is not logical, and while you could argue that it was just them not being able to excercise free will... I will once again go back to what Alrik said - "Once you are made Tranquil you'll do whatever I ask you." He could have been raping the Mages before they were Tranquil, but he wasn't. It was a whole lot easier after they were turned.

Everything I have seen of Tranquil has led me to believe that they are so very susceptible to suggestion, or "rules" or whatever you want to call it that it's almost as if they either don't care/don't know any better. That does not remind me of people that are supposed to be "logical, reasonable, and have free will" so it does not seem to even really fit with a Vulcan perspective. The Tranquil, as far as I have seen, are only so much reasonable/logical/focused, etc, on whatever their craft is...and to a point that it can sometimes be dangerously so (Owain and his stockroom). If they were actually reasonable, and logical, I just find it hard to believe that they would not act in a different matter concerning many things I have seen in the game.

Well, like Owain himself said, as I quoted him earlier, everyone responds differently to different things. Generally the Tranquil might be more susceptible to suggestion, but it doesn't necessarily mean they don't have free will. If you're suggesting that despite their claims, that the Tranquil are also neither logical nor reasonable, than that again is a whole other argument.

It's not another whole argument because I was directly responding to the Gaider posts that I was directed to, and in them he talked about free will and how the Tranquil might not have emotions but they can still be logical and reasonable. Which I went on to talk about the many instances I hardly see Tranquil acting reasonable, or logical at all. I am going by what the game has directly shown me. If you want to ignore that, then by all means go ahead. I feel it connects to the issue of free will, because the argument was that they have effectively lost free will after  becoming Tranquil (losing their emotions) but Gaider said they still are reasonable, and yet I rarely see them act reasonable or care enough for their own well-being outside of their awesome craft making every night and day.

You said that the Vulcan's still had free will even though they try to not live by emotion, and make choices based on reason - which I never see the Tranquil do when it actually matters despite Gaider saying that they do indeed think logically. So, am I just supposed to believe that they go along with all these random ass things that I have mentioned that happen around them because it's "reasonable"? Or am I more likely going to believe that they either don't care because they don't know any better, or truly have no freaking clue what is going on? This all leads to me believing they don't know how to even use this concept of free will outside of their own little personal bubble. So that's why that was brought up.

All in all, to me, nothing is free will when someone takes *MY* control away from my own body. The Mages that want to do that to themselves can go right ahead, but I will not say that if I was made Tranquil *I* have free will because my body and consciousness has effectively been stolen from me...and I am the ONLY owner of my body.

[Satyricon331]

*gah* I don't know why I said anything.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 30 août 2011 - 04:01 .