422 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

I would like Fenris quite a bit actually. I agree with most of the things he says, his only huge flaw is that he killed all of those fog warriors that he admired and that had rescued him just because Denarius told him to. That is his big black mark and why I can't really trust the guy.

[Heidenreich]

Fenris is Awesome. Disliking him because he HATES blood magic and can see this naive little twit who twirls on her toes and plays with butterflies , acting as if she has no idea of its corrupting properties is silly. Anders is just as mean to her, if not more.

Look at it from his point of view.

He spent his whole life as a slave. As a slave to a blood mage. A blood mage who burned LYRIUM into his skin JUST BECAUSE HE COULD.(for science! - Denarius) He's seen what blood magic can do, on a regular basis.

Now, along comes a DALISH elf, which as we know dalish claim to be the only "true elves" despite not actually DOING anything useful to help other elves other then wander around the woods claiming to be the only true elves.

And she's a Mage - which he already dislikes on principle.

And, to top it all off.. she's a BLOOD MAGE.

So right away she's got the following things checked off on the "con" list of the pros' and con's of why he should EVER like Merrill.

1. Dalish (arrogant twit)
2. Mage
3. Blood Magic

Then to top it all off -- She's a ****ING CHILD. Maybe not physically and age wise, but emotionally, she's 12 years old. She has absolutely no idea how the world works at all. So they're practically BABYSITTING when ever she's around.


Mind you, Merrill is adorable, sweet, and very skilled. But this isn't "what we think of Merrill", its "What Fenris think's of Merrill". Thus, he's perfectly justified in his dislike of her. The woman is blindly walking towards demon possession, CHEERFULLY in fact, with no heed of the consequences or what anyone else would tell her about it.

She's not Naive when it comes to demons. Everyone knows that she's been well educated in magic and all its doom-and-gloom scenarios. Dailish do not slack in the educating of their keepers. The keepers lead the clans.

She's literally throwing a temper tantrum. Like a 12 year old. "The keeper said blood magic is bad, but what does she know!" "Anders said possession is bad, but what does he know!" "Hawke says blood magic is dangerous, what does he know!" "Fenris says all blood mages are evil, what does he know!"

If she stomped her feet and whined when Fenris or Anders or The Keeper yelled at her, you'd probably be less inclined to like her, and instead stamp "Spoiled ****ing brat" on her forehead. Which she is. She's just adorable about it instead of irritating.


Fenris has every reason to dislike this woman. In fact, it speaks volumes about his level of abuse that he puts up with her at all. Hawke says "We're friends, kk?" and Fenris sighs and puts up with her.. because even if he's not a slave any longer, he doesn't know how not to be one.. and Hawke is the "Alpha" of their little group.

It's actually probably the only reason Fenris puts up with Anders, as well. Not to say that Fenris doesn't have his own irritating flaws.. because he does. I just dislike seeing people say "I HATE FENRIS HE"S MEAN TO MERRILL"

Of course he's mean to Merrill. She's a spoiled brat who's had everything in life handed to her and STILL DOESN'T APPRECIATE IT. In the eyes of Fenris, Merrill is every Elf stereotype personified.


>.> I her though. Just like I Fenris.

[Speakeasy13]

Yeah but he didn't just hate blood magic. He wanted to lock up ALL magic users and throw away the key. He assumes all mages are evil just cuz ONE magister enslaved him. That's like... being molested by a Catholic priest and advocates outlawing Catholicism.

One major difference between Fenris and Anders/Merrill. The latter had a more selfless motive of helping their own kind, but Fenris just seemed completely self-absorbed and hardly even cared for his own family... Well yeah he didn't really remember them and probably had PTD, either way it simply doesn't make him a very functional individual. 

And regarding your Dalish Elf comment... no offense but isn't it kinda racist to just hate someone cuz she's Dalish?

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 30 mai 2011 - 03:18 .

[Heidenreich]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Yeah but he didn't just hate blood magic. He wanted to lock up ALL magic users and throw away the key.

No that's false.

He had seen FIRST HAND what free mages do with their freedom. Thus, through that experience tries to explain to Hawke and his(her) co-horts that mages are NOT slaves, they're prisoners, and RIGHTLY SO, because mages, when given ultimate freedom, will always seek power..

Holy mother of a run on sentence.

If your Hawke's a mage, he comes to realise that not all mages are weak enough to want absolute power with their freedom. But, by realizing this, he also see's that MOST mages aren't strong mages. In fact, even if your Hawke isn't a mage he makes that EXACT statement to Anders.

Bethany/Hawke are strong mages. They were taught to be strong by a strong mage (Malcolm). Anders was weak (posession). Merrill is weak (blood magic). Giving in because its easy = weakness. Weakness in a mage = posession. Posession = dangerous.

Dangerous isn't something that HE FEELS should be free to run willy nilly around. That's like saying "Well, he only killed 4 people and robbed a bank. He doesn't need to go to jail because he was trying to feed his kitten!"

Hell is paved with good intentions, and good intentions does not make someone like that any less dangerous. Mind you, even Fenris will admit that locking them all up and throwing away the key isn't the best solution. But, to him, its better then the alternitive.. which he's seen and lived FIRST HAND.

Speakeasy13 wrote...
And regarding your Dalish Elf comment... no offense but isn't it kinda racist to just hate someone cuz she's Dalish?

Except it's exactly what the Dalish do. They hate anyone who are not Dalish. City Elves? Not real elves. Humans? Shemlin. Dwarves? Dirt children.

Why wouldn't Fenris, or any city elf with any kind of world experience, dislike the dalish? They litterally do nothing to help their people. All they do is wander around in the woods collecting bits of old history and turning their noses up at anything that isn't LIKE THEM.

It's not Racisim. They're both elves. Fenris just isn't a child. He's seen the world and knows how it works. If you take him along when you meet Merrill, the Dalish at the camp's entrence bla-de-bla about being the only true elves, and Fenris rolls his eyes and effectively says "Right sure.."

This sets the tone of how he feels about the Dalish.



Don't get me wrong. There is a lot about Fenris that you can dislike. There is also a lot about Merrill you can like. I love both of these characters BECAUSE they are so well written and in-depth. They aren't one dementional. The one thing you shouldn't dislike about him though, is his hatred for Merrill. It's justifed. She is a half dozen things he hates all wrapped up in an adorable, tooth achingly sweet package.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 30 mai 2011 - 03:31 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Fenris thinks dangerous mages should be caged, but not dangerous Fenrises. This is the problem, here. His murder of those fog warriors is about on par with anything Anders has done, and he'd easily do that again, slip into following a poor master who commands him to do evil, at the drop of a hat. Does he think he needs to be jailed or put down? He does not. That's what makes him a huge bloody hypocrite. It's only mages who must be put down because they are a risk, but I'd argue that Fenris is just as big of a risk as any Mage... yet he believes he deserves freedom. He effectively made his own deal with his own demon decades ago, in fighting for the markings and asking for his boon, and it made him just as dangerous and insane as Anders. That he doesn't remember doing it is no excuse.

What you say about the Dalish is demonstrably false: whenever a city Elf asks the Dalish for help, they treat them like family. They will take any city elf into their clan, sight-unseen, questions-unasked. All they need to do is show up. This was explained in the Dalish elf origin, if you actually bother to talk with people, and referenced several other times throughout both games. I know that, for Fenris and the other Tevinter elves, this makes little difference, but what Merril says is true.

Right now, pretty much all non-Dalish elves are effectively slaves, forced to live in slums or die in the circle, if they happen to have magic. The Dalish feel that they are the "real" elves more because they are what every living thing should be... properly free, working together, looking after the poor and the sick. Yes, I'll admit there's some looking down upon city elves, but it's more out of compasison than discrimination. They are saying "look, just leave. All you have to do is leave, and you could come with us, you could be truly free."

I don't hate Fenris (and indeed, I think that everybody should kiss everybody, and the only companion who is never unreasonable is Varric), but there are a lot of giant holes in his reasoning.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 mai 2011 - 03:44 .

[Heidenreich]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Fenris thinks dangerous mages should be caged, but not dangerous Fenrises. This is the problem, here. His murder of those fog warriors is about on par with anything Anders has done, and he'd easily do that again, slip into following a poor master who commands him to do evil, at the drop of a hat. Does he think he needs to be jailed or put down? He does not. That's what makes him a huge bloody hypocrite. It's only mages who must be put down because they are a risk, but I'd argue that Fenris is just as big of a risk as any Mage... yet he believes he deserves freedom. He effectively made his own deal with his own demon decades ago, in fighting for the markings and asking for his boon, and it made him just as dangerous and insane as Anders. That he doesn't remember doing it is no excuse.

What you say about the Dalish is demonstrably false: whenever a city Elf asks the Dalish for help, they treat them like family. They will take any city elf into their clan, sight-unseen, questions-unasked. All they need to do is show up. This was explained in the Dalish elf origin, if you actually bother to talk with people, and referenced several other times throughout both games. I know that, for Fenris and the other Tevinter elves, this makes little difference, but what Merril says is true.

Right now, pretty much all non-Dalish elves are effectively slaves, forced to live in slums or die in the circle, if they happen to have magic. The Dalish feel that they are the "real" elves more because they are what every living thing should be... properly free, working together, looking after the poor and the sick. Yes, I'll admit there's some looking down upon city elves, but it's more out of compasison than discrimination. They are saying "look, just leave. All you have to do is leave, and you could come with us, you could be truly free."

I don't hate Fenris (and indeed, I think that everybody should kiss everybody, and the only companion who is never unreasonable is Varric), but there are a lot of giant holes in his reasoning.

I never said his reasoning was sound. He's just as fanatical about his beliefs as Anders is. I just said his reasoning was justifyable ;p Hating him because he hates merrill is a silly reason, when his reason for hating merrill is completely understandable. Its not rational or sound. It's just understandable ;p

There are a million other reasons why someone could dislike him, up to including his blind catagorization of all mages. ;p


As for the Dalish (and this is comming from someone who's cannon warden is a dalish), their inaction is as much a flaw as the city elves. Saying they're the only true elves, while not helping to 'free' the city elves from their implied imprisonment  (They're about as much slaves as mages are. Typical City Elves are Prisoners of their Enviroment and Inaction. At least, everywhere but in Tevinter and parts of Orlais.) is like dangling a cookie in front of a starving child.

"We're better then you, because we're not prisoners to human injustice!"
"Well, why dont you help us?"
"Oh we do, when you decide to try and wander the woods to be like us."
"... so then how are you better? You say you're going to help, but do nothing. Unless we trickle slowly out of human lands, you're not going to help?
"... pretty much yes."


Obiously the Dalish figure "We help those who help themselves", but do City Elves see it that way? And what of the elves that are ACTUALLY slaves? They rise up all the time, and yet recive no help outside of "if you want to join us, we'll be here.. somewhere.. in the woods.."

It's all a matter of perception. Which I LOVE about our DA writers. Because they get that.

Dalish elves believe their helping.
City elves think dalish are stuck up snobs who put themselves above the whole of the race.

Perception!

[trobbins777]

 I love how ironic Fenris is as a character. He hates mages because of how powerful(and therefore) corrupt they are yet i can't help but notice that he is very powerful himself. What's even more ironic is that whenever anyone from his past comes near him he goes on a killing spree. It's almost like he becomes possessed by a spirit of vengence. 

To be honest I don't like Anders that much either. Perhaps it's because if you were to replace the word mage with templar in his script and vice versa he would sound alot like Fenris.

Modifié par trobbins777, 30 mai 2011 - 04:04 .

[Heidenreich]

trobbins777 wrote...

 I love how ironic Fenris is as a character. He hates mages because of how powerful(and therefore) corrupt they are yet i can't help but notice that he is very powerful himself. What's even more ironic is that whenever anyone from his past comes near him he goes on a killing spree. It's almost like he becomes possessed by a spirit of vengence. 

To be honest I don't like Anders that much either. Perhaps it's because if you were to replace the word mage with templar in his script and vice versa he would sound alot like Fenris.

A perfect example of why not to love Fenris!

He's very contradictory. He hates mages, but his power stems from it. He's like a man posessed.

An argument to that is -- he's also very self-hating. He dislikes his powers, dislikes himself for using it, loaths that his whole world has been shapped by the very thing he hates, and yet he can never seem to escape it.



I really should be writing about Mass Effect >.> Darn you, Dragon Age fans :>

[berelinde]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Fenris thinks dangerous mages should be caged, but not dangerous Fenrises.

Something about that struck me as insanely funny. The kind of thing I'd want in a sig. It doesn't hurt that I agree with you.

His murder of those fog warriors is about on par with anything Anders has done, and he'd easily do that again, slip into following a poor master who commands him to do evil, at the drop of a hat.

I just had a chilling flash from the future.

Rival Fenris eventually leaves the PC's side. Hawke starts making inquiries about him. He gets Anso to recruit some strangers to deal with Hawke's agents, then enlists their aid to hunt Hawke down and kill him. After all, Hawke was the one who "made" him kill the templars.

Yes, I do realize how ridiculous this scenario is. I blame the heat. It's affecting my brain.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Heidenreich wrote...

As for the Dalish (and this is comming from someone who's cannon warden is a dalish), their inaction is as much a flaw as the city elves. Saying they're the only true elves, while not helping to 'free' the city elves from their implied imprisonment  (They're about as much slaves as mages are. Typical City Elves are Prisoners of their Enviroment and Inaction. At least, everywhere but in Tevinter and parts of Orlais.) is like dangling a cookie in front of a starving child.

"We're better then you, because we're not prisoners to human injustice!"
"Well, why dont you help us?"
"Oh we do, when you decide to try and wander the woods to be like us."
"... so then how are you better? You say you're going to help, but do nothing. Unless we trickle slowly out of human lands, you're not going to help?
"... pretty much yes."


Obiously the Dalish figure "We help those who help themselves", but do City Elves see it that way? And what of the elves that are ACTUALLY slaves? They rise up all the time, and yet recive no help outside of "if you want to join us, we'll be here.. somewhere.. in the woods.."

Dalish elves believe their helping.
City elves think dalish are stuck up snobs who put themselves above the whole of the race.

There aren't enough Dalish elves to really help, though, not in the way you're suggesting. It's technically legal to murder any non-alienage-dwelling Elf, most places in Thedas. Heck, it's barely illegal to murder an alienage-dwelling elf. Making "recruitment" trips into the city would drive the Dalish extinct very quickly, and there would be no hope for any elf (though I do think there'd be a benefit to doing some slightly better "meet us halfway/underground railroad" organization, but the Dalish are leaderless... for now, anyway. My Warden would like to see that change, if she can. (That's one of the reasons she puts Alistair on the throne, even though it means losing him - because he will be better for the Elves, all the elves, even the city ones, and she cares about them.)

I also think the Dalish so far have shown themselves to have absolutely the best method for society and mage-organizing, and Fenris can't even admit that, simply because Merrill is foolish. It seems like in the last few hundred to few thousand years, it's the only society that does not seem to consistently drive its mages insane, and which produces strong, stable, non-stabbity mages 99.9% of the time. It is proof positive that magic can serve the greater good, rather than ruling over people or being crushed beneath their heel.

If Fenris said something along those lines to Merrill, that he'd almost be tempted to trust the Dalish if it weren't for her terrible example... it would be meaner to her, but more rational in general.

[TheAwesomologist]

I don't hate Fenris, at least not how I like Hate Anders. That said Fenris just doesn't seem like he's that important to the game. Merrill is tied to your Flemeth quest, Varric is the storyteller, Isabella is the reason we have an Act 2, Aveline is the only character who really makes her mark on the city, and Anders is more important than Hawke. Fenris is one of the pictured characters, but Cassandra doesn't even mention him when we get cut scenes of her and Varric.

As for a character I didn't use him much unless I knew he was going to falcon punch someone. He has an interesting story, but in the end not as dynamic as other characters unless you romance him.

In the end he's a decent character, just not great. IMO anyways.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

berelinde wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Fenris thinks dangerous mages should be caged, but not dangerous Fenrises.

Something about that struck me as insanely funny. The kind of thing I'd want in a sig. It doesn't hurt that I agree with you.

His murder of those fog warriors is about on par with anything Anders has done, and he'd easily do that again, slip into following a poor master who commands him to do evil, at the drop of a hat.

I just had a chilling flash from the future.

Rival Fenris eventually leaves the PC's side. Hawke starts making inquiries about him. He gets Anso to recruit some strangers to deal with Hawke's agents, then enlists their aid to hunt Hawke down and kill him. After all, Hawke was the one who "made" him kill the templars.

Yes, I do realize how ridiculous this scenario is. I blame the heat. It's affecting my brain.

Feel free to sig away, if you want.

Luckily I see Fenris as a nice submissive puppy dog. He's incapable of taking that kind of initiative, which is actually what I like best about him (Yes, I know there is something very very wrong with me). Almost everything awful he has done has been either direct revenge, or at someone else's behest. It's more dangerous if he ends up in the hands of the Chantry, somehow. It almost makes me want to romance him just to keep him from gumming up the works.

For some reason my favorite Fenris scene is when he's complaining about Hadriana. He just seems so... delicate, so easily harmed there. You realize how fragile any normalcy he would have had then was, and how foolish he feels describing these mundane torments to someone like Hawke. Oof it makes me want to promise him I'll take care of him. God dammit why can't I just take care of everyone! 

For what it's worth, I think Fen and Izzy are the only DA2 relationships that have a possibility of ending happily ever at all.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 mai 2011 - 04:27 .

[Nameless2345]

Fenris is a somewhat unique companion in Bioware games, at least for me. Usually with time (dialogues, other exposure) I gain more appreciation for characters.

Some examples:
1)Anomen. Looks like an idiot at first (and at second), but later you begin to realize what shaped him so. And you can somewhat change him.

2)Onasi Carth(?). Looks like a guy with persecution complex, but at least you learn that he has pretty strong reasons.

3)Bastila. Looks like arrogant b*ch at first, but later it is revealed as mostly insecurity. Plus, she saves your character’s live. Twice. And while she isn't always noble, she strives to be. 

4)Jack. Once again, has good reasons. And actually has very traumatic past.

Now, Fenris… At first you see that he has issues with magic. An innocent victim of cruel experiment, an escaped slave. Obviously, the guy is supposed to be pretty emotional about such things. Plus, he has to know what he is talking about, right?

Act II:
1)He breaks his word to Hadriana, murders her, throws huge temper tantrum, insults PC and other mages in party (who risked lives helping the elf). But of course, I thought, he had good reasons. Probably Hadriana tortured him. Or killed his friends. Or sold his lover to a rich pervert. Err… no. She …bullied him, effectively. That’s all.

2)You learn somewhere along the act II that Fenris is a)illiterate b)amnesiac. In fact, he has memory span of a … young teenager? At best? An illiterate teenager, at that? And he gives advices how very complex issues (mages) should be solved? With such absolute conviction and aggression? And actually argues with far more educated and experienced people (Anders, Merrill, PC) while he can know NOTHING about Circles and Templars, to begin with?

3)And of course, how does he use his much valued freedom, bought with dozens of lives? Well, he just squats in a decrepit mansion. Aveline is a successful guard-captain. Merrill partially rebuilds her eluvian. Anders works in his clinic, helping poor, frees several mages and writes some sort of manifesto. Varric… has some shady business going.

And I’m not going into romance part.

Act III:
1)You learn that his lirium markings were received willingly. He even competed for them. It seems there was a deal between Fenris and Danarius: markings (and service, I assume) in exchange for freeing Fenris’ family. He whined about damned markings the whole game. Complained about them to PC, Merrill and Carver (at least). And you learn that this illiterate amnesiac, who just loves to gives his opinion about mages-normal humans relations, doesn’t know a damn even about himself!

2)But of course he is horrifyingly eager to slay his sister for endangering his freedom. More eager than Varric, Sebastian, Leliana in their personal confrontations. However, immediately after this conversation he confesses that he still has absolutely no idea why does he need freedom and what is he going to do with it. Damn, could he say it before party killed just another bunch of people for that freedom?

 Personally I just don’t know how I am supposed to view this character. In the end the game I have an impression of extremely ignorant, extremely self-righteous (a very common combination, actually) and ruthless, if not cruel, individual with no aspirations, no admirable goals. Best future? Mercenary, essentially hired killer (both Red Iron missions you get are assassinations). Worst? Drunkard.

And yes, while I wouldn't call him a danger to the society yet, he seems very close to this line. I don't remember him showing much respect for laws or human lives. 

Modifié par Nameless2345, 30 mai 2011 - 04:45 .

[ReiSilver]

Yeah I'd have to disagree on the Dalish bashing (even though it's hypothetical Fenris POV) The Dalish keep the old magic, their own culture alive, they live free and are hated for it, they move around all the time because if they stay in one spot the human communities get antsy and try to drive them off (Dalish Origin) They are honestly mystified as to why city elves put up with what they do but will take in any who seek them out (codex entry on city elves in the Dalish Origin). If they did anything more for city elves they'd be putting their clan at risk by stirring up human cities, they simply don't have the numbers to take that kind of risk or maybe just aren't into pushing their way of life on others through any other means but example.

@CulturalGeekGirl 'easily slip into it again'? Funny every time someone tried to treat him as a slave in game he was quick to show them violently that's not the case. What happened with the Fog warriors was only just after he'd had a taste of freedom for the first time he could remember, He had never gone against anything his master had told him to do before, never even thought of it, he'd been conditioned not to. He did an amazing thing by even running away after that. He's come a LONG way since then, to the point I'd say trying to draw an analogy to a mage at risk of possession is unrealistic. Bringing up the markings as a hypocritical point doesn't make sense since he effectively became a different person when his mind was wiped, he no longer had the ability to judge circumstanses based on past experience, he didn't have any until he starts remembering things in Part 3 or is told.
I think the bigger point however is that Fenris could see mage weakness as 'human weakness' (for lack of a better term) that -anyone- would do the same given the lure of power but it is only mages who have such easy access to that power and temptation. Thus he argues that mages need to be controlled.
So far Fenris has seen Tevinter, qunari and the Kirkwall Gallows circle as options on how to deal with mages and he supports the circle. Despite this he doesn't turn in Merrill or Anders even though he will voice his opinions of them loudly and will only turn against a Hawke who sides with Mages if he does not trust/respect that Hawke.
Honestly Fenris comes off as far more reasonable to me then DA2 Anders, he's at least willing to make consessions in his world view.

[berelinde]

@CulturalGeekGirl: OK, now we're no longer in agreement. I don't see Fenris as being quite that submissive. He took initiative once before, don't forget. And I don't forsee a happy ending at all if there's a rivalry romance. Or even for a friendly romance. He doesn't know how to be happy and doesn't seem inclined to learn.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ReiSilver wrote...
@CulturalGeekGirl 'easily slip into it again'? Funny every time someone tried to treat him as a slave in game he was quick to show them violently that's not the case. What happened with the Fog warriors was only just after he'd had a taste of freedom for the first time he could remember, He had never gone against anything his master had told him to do before, never even thought of it, he'd been conditioned not to. He did an amazing thing by even running away after that. He's come a LONG way since then, to the point I'd say trying to draw an analogy to a mage at risk of possession is unrealistic. Bringing up the markings as a hypocritical point doesn't make sense since he effectively became a different person when his mind was wiped, he no longer had the ability to judge circumstanses based on past experience, he didn't have any until he starts remembering things in Part 3 or is told.

I think the bigger point however is that Fenris could see mage weakness as 'human weakness' (for lack of a better term) that -anyone- would do the same given the lure of power but it is only mages who have such easy access to that power and temptation. Thus he argues that mages need to be controlled.

So far Fenris has seen Tevinter, qunari and the Kirkwall Gallows circle as options on how to deal with mages and he supports the circle. Despite this he doesn't turn in Merrill or Anders even though he will voice his opinions of them loudly and will only turn against a Hawke who sides with Mages if he does not trust/respect that Hawke.
Honestly Fenris comes off as far more reasonable to me then DA2 Anders, he's at least willing to make consessions in his world view.

It's more that if Hawke were a complete monster, I think that Fenris would continue to pretty much do whatever Hawke wanted, as long as it didn't involve helping mages too much. Like I get the idea that if Hawke was like "Ok, we're going to murder every mage we ever meet, and also pretty much anyone I don't like." Fenris would say "yes my captain!" and follow along gladly.

And when Fenris is offered to Danarius (A dick move that I could never possibly do, oh my god it is worse than selling Legion, but I've seen it on youtube), he's given the option of dying free or going back to being Danarius's slave, and he chooses slavery. I was like "Wha? At least put up a FIGHT, dude!" 

Then again I was also FURIOUS at Anders for making his little "I thought I was the only one thinking that" comment if you give Fenris to Danarius. Ugh, that is the worst thing you have ever done, Anders. The absolute worst thing.  It's also the only thing you do that I cannot associate with either your DA:A personality, Justice, OR Vengeance. But it never happens in my game, so I try my best to ignore it. I guess I can write it off as blind agreement with Hawke, or something. Still, arg.

I like Anders a little bit more than Fenris (other than Varric, this is the first game where the romanceables are, by and large, all big favorites). I agree that he is slightly more unbudging, but you have to understand that Anders is intractable because he gave up the ability to compromise for the ability to take action. He literally sold his reasonableness to the devil for courage. Fenris doesn't have the same excuse, he's just unreasonable because he's crazy and scared and scarred.

One of the reasons I like Fenris is because he does just need some solid guidance in his life. He needs someone to show him that all mages aren't evil, but he also needs someone to show him how to be a person. I don't see much of a future for a non-romanced Fenris, unless Izzy takes over his care and feeding, but with a few more years of freedom, maybe meeting a few more sane mages, (how I wish he could have met DA:A Anders. A thousand sighs), and some education, I can see him becoming an actual stable and sane person. Someone has to put in the work first, though.

[Arquen]

 I absolutely adore Fenris as a character. In fact, he is my favorite character out of all the bioware games. I loved Alistair in DA:O, but Fenris is such a complex character, and so many people just don't get him at all.
First of all, to the Dalish argument. Fenris hates the Dalish. This conversation is a pretty good example:

Merrill: Certainly your people have stories about the Dalish. No?
Fenris: My people?
Merrill: The elves in Tevinter. They must have heard of us.
Fenris: They've heard. They just don't care.Merrill: But if they ran away, the Dalish would help them.
Fenris: You might as well say, "If they flew into the sky, they could live in the clouds."
Merrill: What would they eat in the clouds? There's nothing there but fluff and the occasional bird.
Fenris: This is why nobody takes the Dalish seriously.

It seems to Fenris that the Dalish just squander their freedoms. He hates Merrill for the same reason.

Fenris: I don't want your pity.
Merrill: Are you talking to me?
Fenris: You said you were sorry about the ritual I endured. Keep your sorrow.
Merrill: I only meant—
Fenris: You have all the freedom none of our kind enjoy, and you throw it away. On what?
Merrill: Our people need to reclaim their heritage.
Fenris: A heritage of defeat? To what end?
Merrill: Would you truly turn your back on your own history? There's so much we don't know...
Fenris: It's not my history. It's simply history.

As far as the mage argument. I would actually argue it isn't hate that drives Fenris to support the cirlce, but the fact that he has seen the opposite side of allowing mages to be free. He absolutely believes that mages should be watched and controlled so they do not become the magisters he has come to hate (for good reason.) In his mind if the mages are all free then the atrocities he witnessed in the Tevinter imperium will become the norm for every mage. They cannot be allowed to just police themselves, it does not work. "It is not that simple."

Anders: By now, you must see what an injustice the templars are.
Fenris: Must I? I see templars trying to control what they have good reason to fear.
Anders: But they go too far.
Fenris: Talk to Hawke about his/her mother. Ask him/her who went "too far."
Anders: You can't hold all mages responsible for that!
Fenris: It doesn't take all mages to cause this. Only the weak ones.

Without some kind of check and balance for all mages, it only takes one weak mage to bring the whole thing down.

gotta cut this post short because of stupid phone, blah! Will have to respond to other arguments later and more fully, lol.

Modifié par Arquen, 05 juin 2011 - 05:33 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

berelinde wrote...

@CulturalGeekGirl: OK, now we're no longer in agreement. I don't see Fenris as being quite that submissive. He took initiative once before, don't forget. And I don't forsee a happy ending at all if there's a rivalry romance. Or even for a friendly romance. He doesn't know how to be happy and doesn't seem inclined to learn.

I was aiming for hyperbole with that post, but it seems like I failed, and failed hard! 

I think Fenris can take initiative to some extent, but I think he's going to have a huge problem with the post-revenge directionlessness that always comes with completed revenge, unless you had a plan for a clean-up game going into it.

(Or unless you picked up a beautiful princess during your travels, saving her from slavery, and she declares her love for you just as you think you have lost your purpose in life, proving that revenge can sometimes work out best for pretty much everyone except the jerks who screwed you over in the first place. If you get that reference, I you.)

I think romanced Fenris may be able to learn to be happy. Friend romanced Fenris has at least shown some desire to be happy, and Rivaled Fenris  has shown some desire to let go, at least a little, maybe. I do see this predicated on getting him away from complete chaos and disorder for a while, giving him a year or two living somewhere quiet with Hawke, learning how to be a person. If he keeps getting dragged places where he has to face the worst manifestations of his demons, I don't think he's going to get better very quickly.

[Nameless2345]

Then again I was also FURIOUS at Anders for making his little "I thought I was the only one thinking that" comment if you give Fenris to Danarius. Ugh, that is the worst thing you have ever done, Anders. The absolute worst thing.  

Why? He isn't doing anything actively malicious here. Nor does H. They both merely withdraw their support. Mage H. has good reasons too. 
Forgetting that H. is a protagonist and as such has plot armor, the alternative is fighting a prepared Tevinter magister and his mercenaries for the sake of someone who is essentially Anders' enemy, both personally and politically (for the lack of better word). Why should Anders risk his live for freedom of someone like Fenris who never even talked to him politely? Who has actually no idea how to use that freedom? 

Try to reverse the situation. What would Fenris say if Templars came for Anders and H. refused to fight them? Do you really think his reaction would've been different?

Yes, risking live to help one's enemy can be considered noble. But I don't view it as an obligation. And about female H. as Fenris' romantic interest... I don't know much about Thedas, but in many feudal societies his Act II running away would've been viewed as a mortal insult both to noblewoman in question and her family. For such things people could lose their lives.

Modifié par Nameless2345, 30 mai 2011 - 05:35 .

[ReiSilver]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

And when Fenris is offered to Danarius (A dick move that I could never possibly do, oh my god it is worse than selling Legion, but I've seen it on youtube), he's given the option of dying free or going back to being Danarius's slave, and he chooses slavery. I was like "Wha? At least put up a FIGHT, dude!"

Oh man, I can't see that without thinking 'Oh gods, Hawke just crushed his fragile little soul' he just didn't have the strength to do anything..... (I'm never watching that again.... oh youtube...)

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Then again I was also FURIOUS at Anders for making his little "I thought I was the only one thinking that" comment if you give Fenris to Danarius. Ugh, that is the worst thing you have ever done, Anders. The absolute worst thing.  It's also the only thing you do that I cannot associate with either your DA:A personality, Justice, OR Vengeance. But it never happens in my game, so I try my best to ignore it. I guess I can write it off as blind agreement with Hawke, or something. Still, arg.

I'm so with you on that.... I keep thinking that one line after that Anders would have said 'wait you're not serious right? We're just messing with him aren't we?' wat anders? WAT?

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I like Anders a little bit more than Fenris (other than Varric, this is the first game where the romanceables are, by and large, all big favorites). I agree that he is slightly more unbudging, but you have to understand that Anders is intractable because he gave up the ability to compromise for the ability to take action. He literally sold his reasonableness to the devil for courage. Fenris doesn't have the same excuse, he's just unreasonable because he's crazy and scared and scarred.

One of the reasons I like Fenris is because he does just need some solid guidance in his life. He needs someone to show him that all mages aren't evil, but he also needs someone to show him how to be a person. I don't see much of a future for a non-romanced Fenris, unless Izzy takes over his care and feeding, but with a few more years of freedom, maybe meeting a few more sane mages, (how I wish he could have met DA:A Anders. A thousand sighs), and some education, I can see him becoming an actual stable and sane person. Someone has to put in the work first, though.

Oh yes, Fenris does have the whole 'needs to be put back together' thing going for him, which I admit to having a weakness for. As a player I just can't get enough of rival-mancing him with my pro-mage/anti-slavery mage M!Hawke, who would annoy the crap out of him and confuse him but still really want to help him.

Anders.... I can't love DA2 Anders because everytime he opens his mouth I remember Awakening Anders who I loved so much and was so entertaining... DA2 Anders(Vanders/Janders) is such a stick in the mud by comparrison it just made the already existing petty-ness stand out and become less tolerable for me. I can't be the only one who played Sarcastic-Mage-Hawke and thought how epic Awakening Anders and Sarcastic-Mage-Hawke together in one place would be: The sarcasm! The Flirting with everyone! Sharing running-away-tips! Play-fighting about whose fireballs are bigger!
And now I'm depressed and need to play awakening again....

[ReiSilver]

Nameless2345 wrote...

Then again I was also FURIOUS at Anders for making his little "I thought I was the only one thinking that" comment if you give Fenris to Danarius. Ugh, that is the worst thing you have ever done, Anders. The absolute worst thing.  

Why? He isn't doing anything actively malicious here. Nor does H. They both merely withdraw their support. Mage H. has good reasons too. 
Forgetting that H. is a protagonist and as such has plot armor, the alternative is fighting a prepared Tevinter magister and his mercenaries for the sake of someone who is essentially Anders' enemy, both personally and politically (for the lack of better word). Why should Anders risk his live for freedom of someone like Fenris who never even talked to him politely? Who has actually no idea how to use that freedom? 

Yes, risking live to help one's enemy can be considered noble. But I don't view it as an obligation. And about female H. as Fenris' romantic interest... I don't know much about Thedas, but in many feudal societies his Act II running away would've been viewed as a mortal insult both to noblewoman in question and her family. For such things people could lose their lives.

Because Ander's whole deal has been that 'mages are people too and shouldn't be imprisoned'
It's the hight of hypocrisy to then turn around and say "imprisoning and enslaving this guy I don't like and doing horrible things to his brain is FINE BY ME."
It makes Ander's whole freedom diatribes nothing but selfishness, his arguments about basic human rights fall flat if you can't hold them up for even people you don't like. People who have fought by your side and not betrayed you to the templars even though they don't like you and have had six years to do so.

[FieryDove]

ReiSilver wrote...

Anders.... I can't love DA2 Anders because everytime he opens his mouth I remember Awakening Anders who I loved so much and was so entertaining... DA2 Anders(Vanders/Janders) is such a stick in the mud by comparrison it just made the already existing petty-ness stand out and become less tolerable for me. I can't be the only one who played Sarcastic-Mage-Hawke and thought how epic Awakening Anders and Sarcastic-Mage-Hawke together in one place would be: The sarcasm! The Flirting with everyone! Sharing running-away-tips! Play-fighting about whose fireballs are bigger!
And now I'm depressed and need to play awakening again....

I feel the same. sigh

Maybe in DA3/4 we can get him back to his mostly old self. A real quest to give justice the boot.

[Arquen]

Fenris is not "made of glass." In a sense he stays with Hawke because Hawke is capable, and he "thinks you could help [him], and you [do]!" He survived for 3 years on his own before Hawke came around. He really isn't the fragile damsel in distress type.

He is more the reserved, untrusting type. It takes a lot for him to actually open up to Hawke and begin anything in the way of friendship or rivalry. Everyone in DA2 is the "needs to be put back together" type. Even Hawke. Yet I don't think this is Fenris' motive, and as far as his future he has already proven he can take care of himself, and be alone if that is how it ends up.

If romanced I think both sides have an ultimate future. Friendship probably more so because he can open himself up to be more trusting of someone who he calls friend. Rivalry has a future as well, but I think it is more a mutual respect thing. Agree to disagree, but they know that they counter-balance eachother, and therefore need eachother's opinions.

As far as why he won't fight back with Danarius, it is for the same reason he killed the Fog Warriors. "This fantasy life was over." "It feels inevitable." Honestly, at the core of it Fenris is tired of running, and tired of being chased and hunted. He doesn't know how to move on or start a new life because 1.) He can't remember anything from his past to move on to/with and 2.) "making decisions for [himself] has never been his strong suite."

He is reactive, and defensive, because he has to be. I don't think he can imagine a world where he is not hunted or subjugated somehow. A little farm with a picket fence tending livestock and "settling down" does not seem like his idea of starting a new life. Yet by meeting Hawke and traveling around with Hawke and co. he sees that a new life is something you simply feel. If Hawke gives him back to Danarius, then it is brutal realization that he was and always will be a slave. He traded one master for another, and he is still property to be bargained away. Like he said... "inevitable." That is why he doesn't fight back.

Anders can suck on a fireball and rot in hell for saying what he does afterwards, by the way. I do like Anders, but I so murder knifed him for that comment. It was said completely out of context. It does not support Hawke, it does not prove anything except his inherit jealousness and bitterness toward Fenris who he feels doesn't support him so should be turned back to slavery. Serves him right, blah blah... I hated Anders for that. I really did.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Arquen wrote...

 I absolutely adore Fenris as a character. In fact, he is my favorite character out of all the bioware games. I loved Alistair in DA:O, but Fenris is such a complex character, and so many people just don't get him at all.
First of all, to the Dalish argument. Fenris hates the Dalish. This conversation is a pretty good example:
Merrill: Certainly your people have stories about the Dalish. No?Fenris: My people?Merrill: The elves in Tevinter. They must have heard of us.Fenris: They've heard. They just don't care.Merrill: But if they ran away, the Dalish would help them.Fenris: You might as well say, "If they flew into the sky, they could live in the clouds."Merrill: What would they eat in the clouds? There's nothing there but fluff and the occasional bird.Fenris: This is why nobody takes the Dalish seriously.

It seems to Fenris that the Dalish just squander their freedoms. He hates Merrill for the same reason.

I disagree with this. I don't think Fenris hates the Dalish. He hates Merrill for squandering HER freedom and her family, and her safety. DA:O Merrill basically has everything Fenris has ever dreamed of: freedom, a loving family, a life without fear. And she gave all of it up, for a fool's gamble. I think Fenris thinks the Dalish are spoiled and a bit naive, but he doesn't actually hate them. The joke about nobody taking them seriously is because the Dalish deliberately don't interface with normal society. If Merrill had said "I wish we could do more to help" rather than the quip about the clouds, I think he would have reacted differently. He's jealous, a bit, because Merrill truly does not know what it is like to be in a situation where you cannot leave, where you cannot dream of leaving, where the thought of leaving is something that cannot occur to you.

Now, Merrill took her gamble because I think she believes that if she figures this all out, she can save everyone... well, every elf at least. Every city elf out there, and all the Dalish, and maybe even the Tevinter slaves. But I don't even know how reasonable that dream is, and I'm willing to go pretty far when it comes to humoring insane-seeming plans that favor the Dalish. Let's figure out something else for now, Merrill, and call this one "Plan D." 

As far as the mage argument. I would actually argue it isn't hate that drives Fenris to support the cirlce, but the fact that he has seen the opposite side of allowing mages to be free. He absolutely believes that mages should be watched and controlled so they do not become the magisters he has come to hate (for good reason.) In his mind if the mages are all free then the atrocities he witnessed in the Tevinter imperium will become the norm for every mage. They cannot be allowed to just police themselves, it does not work. "It is not that simple."

Anders: By now, you must see what an injustice the templars are.
Fenris: Must I? I see templars trying to control what they have good reason to fear.
Anders: But they go too far.
Fenris: Talk to Hawke about his/her mother. Ask him/her who went "too far."
Anders: You can't hold all mages responsible for that!
Fenris: It doesn't take all mages to cause this. Only the weak ones.

Without some kind of check and balance for all mages, it only takes one weak mage to bring the whole thing down.

I love the smell of a good argument in the morning.

This is where I feel Anders fails so hard at explaining his point. He makes it so much more clearly when speaking with Hawke (ironically, especially RivalManceHawke, who is not going to listen to a single thing you say, m'dear), and even then he makes it less well than he made it in Awakenings (Oh DA:A Anders, how I mourn you. However, I blame the Chantry for your death, not you.)

For my ex-Templar-in-training-but-loves-mages Hawke, the first step is getting someone to watch Mages who doesn't think they are a punishment from the Maker. Hell, if that is the ONLY thing that gets accomplished, it will be a net win for the universe. These problems aren't caused because mages are monitored, they're caused because they are hated and abused. If you had, say, the Dwarves in charge of watching for blood magic, you would have fewer children getting lead away from their families in manacles, and fewer mages committing suicide. The Dwarfish Atheists woud do such a better job, it's mind-boggling.

If you just had some kind of a United Chantry of Andrasteism, or Objectionist Andrasteism (if you get THAT reference you get every cookie. All of them), some reform movement that can just eliminate the hatred... then, yes, things could get better.

Without that, the only hope is to watch it burn, and hope that something better rises from the ashes.

If Anders had started small, like with "Hey, maybe mages should at least not be actively tortured? Can we start there?" he would have gotten a whole lot goddamn further.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 mai 2011 - 05:57 .