422 réponses à ce sujet

[Arquen]

Funny you should say Fenris is a lot like shale. They really do have a lot in common. Hate for mages for one, slave life for another, quite oppressed, experimented on, abused both physically and psychologically (though shale couldn't really "feel" what the mage did to her I don't think). However, shale too was one of my favorite characters but for very different reasons than Fenris.

Of course you know David Gaider loves to be purposefully ambiguous with his characters as well. Leaving them open for interpretation for different viewpoints, biases, and people. It allows for different people to see different things based on what they read out of the characters, plot, etc.

[Nameless2345]

Arquen wrote...

Funny you should say Fenris is a lot like shale.

Actually, yes. I haven't seen it myself before.  And funny that I really liked Shale. Partially due to his unique skillset though. You could switch him on-the-fly between damage-dealer, supporter, and tank (not optimal, perhaps, but good enough on normal difficulty). And equip him to deal different kinds of damage/have different resistances. That's what DLC characters should be. Unique and adaptable. And he was funny.

Of course you know David Gaider loves to be purposefully ambiguous with his characters as well.

That's how it should be, IMHO.

Teh Blasta wrote...

snip

He shows come minor signs of compassion in dialogues, but very little. Probably he does something nice, but I asked for examples several times and received none. Varric watches over Merrill and Anders, Aveline's very job is to protect innocents (at least she views it as such), Anders helps refugees...

Tolerance... yes. Can be interpreted that way. Can be interpreted as placing personal loyalty and friendship above ideological differences. Admirable in both interpetations.
But on the other hand many characters can be persuaded to change their points of view on their major issues on rivalry path. Fenris is so immutable for someone who has so much to learn. 

Modifié par Nameless2345, 10 juin 2011 - 05:48 .

[Nameless2345]

Edit: should be deleted.

Modifié par Nameless2345, 10 juin 2011 - 05:47 .

[ladyvader]

I didn't like Fenris at first. Too whiny for me, but he grew on me over time.

[Ambeth]

Um, Nameless2345 ...Shale was a 'she'....

[Arquen]

He shows come minor signs of compassion in dialogues, but very little. Probably he does something nice, but I asked for examples several times and received none. Varric watches over Merrill and Anders, Aveline's very job is to protect innocents (at least she views it as such), Anders helps refugees...

Tolerance... yes. Can be interpreted that way. Can be interpreted as placing personal loyalty and friendship above ideological differences. Admirable in both interpetations.
But on the other hand many characters can be persuaded to change their points of view on their major issues on rivalry path. Fenris is so immutable for someone who has so much to learn. 

I don't know if "does something nice" is the right word. Fenris does seem to take an active part in hunting slavers, and somehow he got the coterie on him for stirring up trouble doing that (as suggested in a dialogue with Varric). Still, he prefers to be a "ghost" in the world. Sebastian also suggests that he has "done much," and is "living as his own man" which is something other slaves and elves can look up to. Fenris would not acknowledge this though, saying he hasn't accomplished anything so grand. The problem is it is open to interpretation just like all the other companions. The only real facts and evidence being what we can glean from dialogue and conversation. What one sees as a fanatical categorical opinion another sees as a valid reference to a life experience and personal history.

Honestly, I don't see Fenris' opinions as all that fanatical. He hates magic, and states as much, but he also states that he does not doubt that there are some mages who are "good and honorable men." He also states that the "weak mages are those I fear, as should you, as should anyone," and "for every strong mage there are a dozen weak ones." It isn't an ultimative "I am right and you are wrong" opinion, but more an "open your eyes and see it from this angle" opinion. Never did I find Fenris' opinions really fanatical. Fenris makes outbursts like "what has magic touched that it has not spoiled!" yet he also appologizes for this and states "I was not myself." Compared to Anders especially in Act 3 he seems to have more capacity to be open minded and evolve his opinions. Even when you first recruit him he states "magic has its uses," and to Hawke - "you are not Danarius, whether you are anything like him remains to be seen." He didn't automatically hate you because you were a mage, and he states as much. He also states when you first meet him that "I have met few in my travels who are not out for personal gain," and thanks Hawke for helping him. He judges people based on their actions and as individuals. This is a mark of someone who has morality and wisdom.

[dragonflight288]

I....happen to agree with that opinion. But when he lashes out in anger, it's always magic is evil and taints all it touches. He is instantly suspicious of every mage he meets. He is outright rude to Anders and Merrill. I wouldn't say I hate him, but his opinions differ from mine as I at least try to be cordial to everyone.

[The Baconer]

And today marks the first time I've given him back to Danarius. I wasn't expecting him to just give up, but I guess that's the way it has to go down.

Personally, I think part of Fenris' hatred of mages stems from jealousy. That he can't have the power they have. We know he competed to have the Lyrium branded into his skin, and taking him into the Fade reveals that he wouldn't deny such power if it was presented to him. In order to 'combat them as equals' obviously *eyeroll*. Would he not 'succumb' to it, just like the Magisters? If he wielded magical powers, would he not find an excuse to abuse it, something he loves to accuse mages of doing? Just something I like to think about.

[dragonflight288]

And I honestly think he would succumb to the power.

[TEWR]

if he waits a few years everyone will have magic again!

[Teh Blasta]

The Baconer wrote...
snip

That was Anders' assessment as well. They both have valid points on the subject of magic but they are also both hypocrites as well. Watching two completely polarized people debate a hot button issue is its own reward, interacting in that debate within a fictional story and having it not be arbitrary will be big step forward. I doubt that Hawke's choice will make any diffrence though. Hopefully the improved character development will carry into DA3 along with the poltical struggles.

[Nameless2345]

Ambeth wrote...
Um, Nameless2345 ...Shale was a 'she'....

Yes, you are right ofc. I guess it’s difficult for me to see Shale as a woman. Perhaps one has to be a dwarf…
To Arquen:
It is difficult to understand what was going on from those pieces of dialog. Banter with Aveline suggests that Fenris merely gave her information but nothing more. Banter about Coterie tells almost nothing. Sebastian... well, compared to your average defenseless poor alienage elf living in a shack Fenris obviously achieved much. Strength, relative independence, Hightown mansion. Additionally, he counts among his friends/close acquaintances two nobles and guard-captain.

He didn't automatically hate you because you were a mage, and he states as much.

Yet he calls Bethany (in fact, I think, every non-H. spellcaster ) a viper merely for being a mage. Merrill is greeted rather unfriendly. Most of his banters with Merrill/Anders are offensive. Yes, he apologizes for personal attack, but continues talking about magic tainting everything in Act III. 
And compared to Anders… Keep in mind that it is possible to convince Anders that “revolution”(? Cut content?) is wrong and persuade him that joining the Templars is the right course of actions/”atonement” (he also agrees that Justice is a monster). Although the dialogue is confusing. As opposed to that, if Fenris joins Mages, he makes it clear that it is out of personal loyalty only (~”It is a mistake, but I won’t abandon you”). As I’ve said before, his opinions (or prejudices) can’t be really changed. Although yes, word “fanatical” may be too strong. Complete confidence in his opinions? Deeply ingrained prejudices? A minor point, anyway, not worth arguing about. 

Modifié par Nameless2345, 12 juin 2011 - 05:43 .

[Valikdu]

Fenris needs to be loaded into a mass accelerator and fired at Square Enix HQ. Because hey, you need to give back what you borrowed.

[Todd23]

Fenris is the hot guy, who's a good guy, but has the opposite views as me. I love him for that! What's the point of them putting in rivalry if you don't enjoy it?

[Teh Blasta]

Todd23 wrote...
who's a good guy

That's very debatable I have to say. You would have to define "good" but for the most part I can't really see Fenris as a "good guy" more than just not an enemy. You have to remember in most cases Fenris will agree with overly harsh treatment of mages without even questioning it. He will also side with the Templars in almost every instance. In all my playthroughs I can't think of a time when I sided with the mages and he wasn't romanced that his initial choice wasn't to betray me and side with the Templars. In many cases though when it comes to the option of killing you however he will reconsider and switch back, grudgingly siding with the mages.

I'm fairly sure if you rolled Aggressive mage, didn't romance and choose mages at the end he would undoubtedly try and kill you. However the romance option on him with an unapologetic aggressive mage is just too good to pass up. The amount of irony in this outright violent relationship is one of the best parts of the game. So yeah, all in all he isn't that "good" of a person for the most part.

[kittycannibal]

the title of this thread makes me want to harm a child!
okay, i'm just a little protective over fenris. >.<

on the other hand, i can understand why people dislike him. he comes off as angry, bitter, hateful, and at times flat out rude. but that's when you don't know him. he has reasons to be the way he is. everyone has a past, and a past doesn't excuse everything mind you, but it explains his actions and "unfair" judgement towards mages.

i can't say that if i was put through what he was put through, i wouldn't be a bitter and hateful person. i probably would be. the torment he went through is unimaginable to me. the torment for any slave, not just him. if you friendship romance him, he follows you through no matter what, he's no longer a one sided son of a **** who wants the blood of mages at the end of the game. he flat out says he doesn't agree, but he will stand by and not abandon hawke. you can't expect him to change his views, but he accepts yours for what they are and fights for and with you. "nothing is going to keep me from you." (insert fangasm)

yes it's pretty unfortunate that he basically betrays you if he isn't completely rival/friendship with you (and other reasons, i.e. not doing all his quests) but to me, it's obvious that by not getting close with him, there's no way you can help him see in a different light. you haven't impacted him in a strong enough way, so of course he isn't going to change his views. no one has showed him a different way. by visiting with him and talking with him, it's clear to me that for hawke, he opens his eyes, even just a smidge. no he doesn't like mages, but it's not like he's threatening to kill your sister. he's just a dick to merill, which i think is deserved, just not to the extent of calling her a monster perhaps xD. then there's anders, but anders is dellusional and a terrorist in my opinion, who is no less of an ignorant **** than fenris is when you haven't communicated with them enough.

people give fenris a hard time, saying he's just a whiny, emo, brat, but he also has a sense of humor, shows affection if you romance him, and in all my playthroughs has been my number one tank and kickass fighter. the whiny emo act is just a piece of him, and my gods do i have to mention he's absolutely beautiful? (i'm sure ALL of him looks that glorious.)

i do agree that he is in a way, jealous of mages. he wants that power, that they have. and it was proven in the fade that when the demon swayed him and offered him power, it worked. but obviously, he saw the error and mistake in that.

bottom line, he has his issues, as does every romance option and character in the game. he's a bit more upfront about his problems perhaps, but look at that ass!

okay, end of fangirl rant.

Modifié par kittycannibal, 28 juin 2011 - 10:19 .

[Lady Orc]

The big problem for me was what happened in my first game, trying to rivalmance him with a magefriendly Hawke. I did do all his quests, talked to him as much as possible (With him being snippy and occasionally rude apart from wanting to sleep with Hawke and then ignoring her) but couldn't quite manage to get him all the way to 100% rivalry. I think that was due to picking him up at a point when I'd already done some of the Mage vs Templars quests, and it not being in character for my Hawke to go 'Yay Slavers' my rivalry bar got stuck near the end.

Anyway, the result was Fenris turning on me in the end when I sided with the mages, trying to kill me. To make it even worse, I was playing a rogue Hawke, with Bethany stuck in the Gallows. So basically, he slept with Hawke, then ignored her (when not insulting her over giving him a sword) and then tried to kill her because she didn't want kill her sister.

This did not endear Fenris to me, and killing him felt very, very satisfying.

Modifié par Lady Orc, 01 juillet 2011 - 05:03 .

[Teh Blasta]

The outcome from romances with Fenris play out in several different ways, one of them is indeed killing him. However being a rival romance is one of the harder options. For myself in my several playthroughs I've found that as long as you aren't completely against him the entirely of the time he will stay loyal to you. I've played the most power hungry, blood thirsty, Aggressive mage possible and Fenris was actually more attracted to that setup than Helpful pro-Templar Hawke. Fenris as far as I can tell prefers the apathy of Aggressive Hawke than the patronizing pity-love of Helpful Hawke. Originally I had Fenris slotted for the emotionally needy eye-candy slot but upon seeing him reject any sort of pity it shows that while he is emotionally jaded he isn't a massive gooey bleeding heart.

[Arquen]

He definitely is no bleeding heart. There isn't a soft goody center to fenris. He rejects pity because he hates it. I understand this. Even a romance with him feels accidental as if the emotions just come on suddenly and without warningor planning. Same with the friendship, if fenris didn't need hawke's help with danarius he simply would move on. He learns to trust and respect hawke only after many years. If that trust isn't solid, fenris has never had a friend so he sticks to his instincts.

Fenris really is not a "good" person. He does know right from wrong but has no qualms committing acts of vengeance and murder. I love him for that. He is at the core someone struggling with an overwhelming anger and hate. He can be sweet,but he isn't needy or a softy in any way.

[Teh Blasta]

This thread requires a hijacking. Needs to be renamed "Obsessive Speculative Physiological Discussion of Fenris" because while the entire "going to far into nonsensical speculative detail" discussion that was going on pretty much has ended but I believe this thread needs to continue on. I'll have to consider making a new thread for this kind of topic. I know there is already a "Fenris appreciation" thread but unquestioned praise is boring.

[Arquen]

Obsessive speculation... guilty! Though I haven't seen people say any base for hating fenris. The only thing I see is emo, final fantasy looking, mad all the time, douche of a character. That says to me hate without reason or even knowledge of the character. Hate fenris all you want, but at least have a decent reason for it.

Modifié par Arquen, 04 juillet 2011 - 12:57 .

[Nameless2345]

Arquen wrote...emo, ..., mad all the time, douche of a character. 

Hate fenris all you want, but at least have a decent reason for it.

The way I see it, you have just listed 3 decent reasons. I believe I made my own reasons excessively known too.
The better question is what can make anyone like him? 

I see decent voiceover, ok model, ok wit and tragic past. Nothing more. And tragic past... don't get me started on this cliche. 

Modifié par Nameless2345, 03 juillet 2011 - 08:43 .

[Arquen]

Those aren't decent reasons, they are stereotypes based on assumptions, little contact with the character, and passed biased.

They are so generic in nature that they can be forced upon any of the characters who fit certain physical data. Not decent enough reasons, and they really have no backing at all except generic assumptions based on 1.) physical appearance, 2.) one statement or sentence that people get hung up on .. ie "You are a monster" 3.) Personal and passed bias "oh the white hair with tragic past has been sooo overdone OMG cliche! finalfantasysephirothwannabe.."

None of which are decent reasons to hate Fenris.

What can make people like him? Nothing can MAKE someone like him. If you don't like him that is fine. Nobody is going to make you like him.

I can tell you some reasons why I like him. 1.) His stoic personality - how he really takes a long time to build up trust, how you have to work to gain his respect, and how he treats Hawke. 2.) His anger, vengeance and general "curse of awesome." How he keeps all that rage seething under the surface, and yet is neither needy or unfeeling. 3.) How he attempts to avoid getting Hawke caught up in his problems, and becomes a loyal companion and someone Hawke can trust. He becomes a protectorate to Hawke, someone who is always there regardless. 4.) His ability to grow as a character, and move forward from looking and speaking all about his past to thinking about a future and how through the course of the game becomes a more well defined person. 5.) His ability to meet evil with evil. Do some evil to prevent evil. Kill some slavers to prevent them from doing any further harm. Kill Danarius and Hadrianna and his sister so they cannot do anymore evil to him or anyone else, and for vengeance sake. His story is very personal, and that is one reason to like him. He truly feels like a friend and companion if Hawke goes through everything with him. He asks for nothing except what a friend would do without question for him, and yet he feels like he is impeding on Hawke's "time."

There is so much more to his character than just the generic stereotypes people slap on him from taking a quick once-over of him. There are plenty of reasons he is a great character, as has been said before. There ARE reasons to like him, but nobody is forcing anyone to like him.

I wouldn't expect anyone to force me to like Merrill.. I hate her, but with legitimate reasons not "because she is annoying girly-girl with an annoying voice," and "acts like a child," and the whole "not gonna listen to anybody until something bad happens" -- how cliche! No, I actually studied Merrill's character, figured out what really bothered me about her, and delved deeper to understand what people find so appealing that I could not.

Generic stereotypes are not reasons, just bias of close minded people who refuse to attempt to see the other side of their own views. They are used as a shield to say "he has a tragic past .. this has been done, therefore he is a walking cliche." -- seriously? That is so pale it is ridiculous. Oh, look Anders is a split personality psycho who blows up a chantry - he is just a simple terrorist! -- how cliche! Isabela is a pretty in your face sex addict - how many times has that been done omg cliche! Aveline is a tomboyish prig of a woman, the working woman cliche, OMG.

so, yeah... sorry but Fenris is an emo, pretty boy, mad all the time, douche of a character with a tragic past -- how cliche! doesn't work either.

Modifié par Arquen, 03 juillet 2011 - 10:44 .

[Nameless2345]

I used “make” in a meaning “to cause to happen”, not “to force someone to do something”.

They are so generic in nature…physical…physical…Sephiroth…

It is interesting that I intentionally omitted “final fantasy looking” (no opinion on JRPGs/FF, never played) yet you refer mostly to this source of dislike. Of course, the epithets you listed are exaggerations (like emo). Yet
saying that bias (I assume ‘douche’ part) is based on one phrase is incorrect: compared to other characters Fenris is among most offensive (in fact only Anders in Act III can compete). 

His stoic personality - how he really takes a long time to build up trust, how you have to work to gain his respect, and how he treats Hawke.

Stoicism has little to do with the speed of building up respect or trust (unless you are referring to the ancient philosophy, which is a different bag of cats and it is not that important there too). It is about controlling emotions (i.e. not letting them influence judgment). It is about limiting the very display of emotions. It is about lack of complaints. I would call, say, Sonya Marmeladova a stoic. Well, not really, but she fits definition better than Fenris, who starts his introduction with complaints. And continues in almost every personal conversation including the last. And is quite openly emotional, even though it is mostly hatred and rage. I wish Fenris was a stoic. We don’t have nearly enough of them in DA2 (0?). 

His anger, vengeance and general "curse of awesome."

 What is attractive or admirable about anger and vengeance? Every aggressive drunk can display the former (and, often, later) without effort.   

How he attempts to avoid getting Hawke caught up in his problems, and becomes a loyal companion and someone Hawke can trust.

 Yerr, we are still talking about the guy who starts by luring the party into a death trap? And asks for help afterwards?  When does Fenris actually protect H. from his problems (as opposed to _telling_  that he would like to)?  And loyalty… see Lady Orc’s post above. I wouldn’t call him loyal, no more than any other companion in games (DA:O+DA:A+DA2) at least. Actually, compare him to Merrill, if you wish. Both can betray H. in the end, if F/R scale isn’t maxed. Both stay with him otherwise. The only difference is that you can deny arulin’holm to Merrill and keep her, but Fenris will leave in Act II if H. doesn’t feel eager enough to help him with his revenge. What makes you call him “loyal”, compared to other party members?  

 His ability to grow as a character, and move forward from looking and speaking all about his past to thinking about a future and how through the course of the game becomes a more well defined person.

I didn’t notice any significant growth, at least not on his own. After all those years in Act III it is once again ~  
tainted by magic, what should I do with my freedom, woe me, I don’t know. After party killed like 50 people for his freedom in total.   

His ability to meet evil with evil. … prevent them from doing any further harm.

Never once I witnessed any real desire to protect the innocents in Fenris. The way I see his actions, it is merely an extended vengeance (something even animals are capable of, by the way, so I’m not exactly eager to applaud him). I’m not sure what you call “evil” here (to my knowledge Fenris commits none until the Act III and even that is conditional), but facing criminals with lethal force is something everyone in party does. It’s something every guardsman does. It is something every soldier (replace criminal with enemy) does. It is something even mabari does. In short, nothing really special, not in this game, at least. I’d say that the problem in DA2 is not that people are unwilling to “meet evil with evil”, but vice versa. See Orsino, Anders, Meredith, Arishok… 

In short, I understand why, from your point of view, Fenris is likeable. I would call loyal self-reliable stoic dedicated to fighting evil likeable as well. However I don’t understand why anyone would use these words to describe Fenris. 

Modifié par Nameless2345, 03 juillet 2011 - 04:49 .

[Arquen]

I *facepalmed* at this. I listed reasons why I like fenris based on my interpretation of the character. My point being not to sit here and defend fenris and my views as you nitpick them to death and once again use grandiose generalizations.

My point is that nobody gives good reasons to hate him other than said stereotype bias. I can give support, reasons, analysis about why I like him and why the things I said make sense to me, but that is just more obsessive speculation.

Modifié par Arquen, 04 juillet 2011 - 01:01 .