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[javierabegazo]

Mass Effect writer Patrick Weeks wrote an article that's being discussed over at Live Journal,

pats_quinade: Gender-Blindness in Video Games: Opinions?


I thought it's a really well written article, and great insight into Character writing, and especially the writers over at BioWare and I figured we'd all be interested.


Sample from article

.....


It is pleasing and helps game immersion when an NPC’s reaction
is based on Shepard’s gender. Aside from romances, there are only two
places in ME2 where this occurred.

1) The Batarian merc recruiter on Omega
2) Gianna Parasini on Illium.

It
really was brilliant to see these unique situations as they help to
make the game more personal and add more to the experience. We would
like to see more of these situations. Even a simple sir or ma’am
distinction helps.

This is fascinating for me, because it is almost completely the opposite of what I try to do.
If I can in any way avoid having someone mention Commander Shepard's
gender, I will do so. I will phrase lines so that a "he" or "she" never
needs to be said ("Commander Shepard did everything possible" instead of
"Commander Shepard did everything he could," for example). And while
the accusation is likely to be made that that's laziness, it's really
not -- making a new line of dialog, slapping the "Is Female?"
conditional on it, and changing "he" to "she" isn't that difficult.

......

Anyways, please read the full article in the link above, and discussion can be here or at LiveJournal.



A few things:
This isn't about S/S Romance. Do not start up a discussion on that topic in this thread. Failure to adhere to this will provoke enforcement.
This isn't about which gender is better for Commander Shepard. The gender you like to play as is best because you are the player.
Disagreement with other opinions must be handled in a respectful way, that follows the Site Rules.

Thanks guys

[CroGamer002]

Next time I should read article before posting.

Modifié par Mesina2, 29 mai 2011 - 04:50 .

[rolson00]

hmmm odd that bioware are the only ones to do this me thinks?

[roflchoppaz]

I personally don't really want gender to be acknowledged. Sure, a few lines here and there, like in ME2. But all the time? Most of the time? No.
People keep alienating FemShep and ManShep when in truth, they are the same character. (The same person, if you're picky with words.) These two should be treated the same. And it seems that BW is trying to do just that, with FemShep getting her part of marketing.

Modifié par roflchoppaz, 29 mai 2011 - 05:16 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Thanks, Javier.

*starts reading*

[Ghost Warrior]

I think that gender difference should actually have more importance in the game,so that female and male Shep playthroughs are more unique.
Outside romances,there is no big difference between those two,only in the places mentioned in the article. I myself prefer to play with male Shepard,and I want a good reason to start another playthrough,with female character.

Not only that,I also think that there should be missions easier to complete with certain gender,kinda like in Fallout.

[Jzadek72]

I agree on both counts. I always liked when the gender was noticed, but at the same time, it's good Shep remains gender neutral because, a couple hundred years in the future, I can see gender becoming less of an issue. A couple of hundred years in the past, gender determined most of what was expected of a person. Now, that divide has thinned, and will probably continue getting thinner.

[InfiniteCuts]

My personal response...

I'm not sure I agree that gender neutrality is *always* the best option for Shepard. I mean, you are trying to write a compelling story and the character's gender *should* have an impact on how certain aspects of their personality are conveyed. I'd really hate it if gender was reduced to a mere "skin" for your particular Shepard. I know people want to experience everything the opposite gender can, and they should, but I think BioWare should have the freedom to frame that experience for each gender in a unique way. This is no different from how it's done in other media (movies, novels, theater, etc), so why should things (especially gender) be "neutral" for video games? I hate that word. :/ I hope BioWare writers aren't afraid to tackle certain situations simply because they don't want to "limit" the options available to either gender. There are obvious differences between the two that would be interesting to see acknowledged in Mass Effect.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

I don't want them to waste time on things like this. And if you start changing responses or outcomes of conversations based on gender, people will inevitibly start whining about ''sexism''. (or use an expensive and utterly misplaced word like ''mysogyny'' in a pathetic attempt to be seen as an intellectual)

Modifié par Spaghetti_Ninja, 29 mai 2011 - 05:33 .

[Conquerthecity]

I don't mind the gender-blindess as it is. However, just a little tiny acknowledgement would be nice. Say, for instance, an NPC calling the Commander Mr/Ms Shepard. That wouldn't break the game.

[Jzadek72]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

I don't want them to waste time on things like this. And if you start changing responses or outcomes of conversations based on gender, people will inevitibly start whining about ''sexism''. (or use an expensive and utterly misplaced word like ''mysogyny'' in a pathetic attempt to be seen as an intellectual)

People will always find something to whine about. I mean, you just have. For something small like this, that shouldn't stop it.

[Leonia]

Just did a quick read and my quick response is: I prefer the gender-blindness. That said, I'm more of a tomboy IRL and don't constantly try to draw attention to the fact that I have female anatomy. I don't wear make up or clothes that make people go "Wow, she's a woman!" and I am probably a minority in this. I play games like this because I love the stories that Bioware delivers, not because I necessarily want to take on the guise of a female space marine.

Those scenes where FemShep acts "manly", like when she throws Kaidan over her shoulder or her manly walk in ME2? I like those moments. She's just as tough as MaleShep and why should she be portrayed any differently? I also liked the dress that we got in Kasumi's DLC but I'm not fussed that Shepard doesn't sit like a woman in it.

I bet she just wants to be treated like a human being more than anything else.

Modifié par leonia42, 29 mai 2011 - 05:39 .

[onelifecrisis]

I don't particularly want different lines for different genders (slightly off-topic: I'd much rather they give FemShep her own animations). For me, acknowledgement of Shepard's gender in anything other than a romance is just a distraction. Also, it opens the game up for potential sexism issues. Look at Jacob - a character utterly destroyed by RL political correctness - and think what might happen if FemShep was given the same treatment.

I don't want to be thinking about racism and sexism when I play ME games. That kind of crap can stay IRL AFAIC. Just my 2p.

[Ghost Warrior]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

I don't want them to waste time on things like this. And if you start changing responses or outcomes of conversations based on gender, people will inevitibly start whining about ''sexism''. (or use an expensive and utterly misplaced word like ''mysogyny'' in a pathetic attempt to seem intellectual)

I find both genders equal,and it's all about individuals. I don't think all the women are smarter and men are stronger,or something like that. But even in real life,I do treat women better and I am more inclined to do a favour to a girl than a man. In ME,there should also be situations and people that are easier for a certain gender to control.Not every situation should be different for genders,but some should.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 29 mai 2011 - 05:41 .

[Jzadek72]

onelifecrisis wrote...

I'd much rather they give FemShep her own animations

That's actually a good point - this shouldn't be ignored.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I understand that from a developer's point of view it is convenient to keep much of the dialogue and story for both genders the same. When it comes to getting Shepard's job done then gender shouldn't matter. Gender blindness may work there, but maybe gender recognition works better in other aspects of the game. How do men and women act in various situations? Do men and women generally think alike and have the same emotional makeup? I assume not, but how does that translate to the game?

Do men deal the same way as women with an horror like on Horizon? I wonder what would happen when the dialogue for that mission was written by two authors: A male writing the male part and a female writing the female part. Do the two end up nearly the same or are there essential differences? It would be cool to see such an experiment at work. The same goes for romance. How would that end up? It's too bad that we cannot discuss sexual orientation, but I assume that would have impact as well.

Would the end result of those experiments end up being more immersive or would the differences be too subtle to notice?

Those were just a couple of things that crossed my mind after reading the article.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 29 mai 2011 - 06:05 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

leonia42 wrote...

Just did a quick read and my quick response is: I prefer the gender-blindness. That said, I'm more of a tomboy IRL and don't constantly try to draw attention to the fact that I have female anatomy. I don't wear make up or clothes that make people go "Wow, she's a woman!" and I am probably a minority in this. I play games like this because I love the stories that Bioware delivers, not because I necessarily want to take on the guise of a female space marine.

Those scenes where FemShep acts "manly", like when she throws Kaidan over her shoulder or her manly walk in ME2? I like those moments. She's just as tough as MaleShep and why should she be portrayed any differently? I also liked the dress that we got in Kasumi's DLC but I'm not fussed that Shepard doesn't sit like a woman in it.

I bet she just wants to be treated like a human being more than anything else.

Nobody said to treat femShep like a girly girl. We're only thinking about acknowledging the gender difference.
Personally, I'm thinking about more of something like... the scene between femShep and Harkin in ME1.

For maleSheps, the convo amounted to questioning Harkin and pressing him about Anderson and Garrus. For femSheps, the convo started out much differently. Harkin treated femShep like your typical ***hole, telling her to "sit on his lap", and femShep threatened to knock his teeth out. It's MUCH more rewarding when you're playing the sex you're not normally used to playing, and something like that happens.

On the other hand, I hate the dress that femShep got in the KSM DLC. I'll never understand why people put her in that outfit while she's on the Normandy; she was supposed to be sexy for Hock's party, now she's being sexy for Joker and the crew?
The one thing that I'm utterly opposed to for femShep is making her walk, sit and act like a perky secretary.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 29 mai 2011 - 06:12 .

[Memphis Slim]

Well, it'd certainly live up to the "totally different experience" claims BW makes on the ME2 loading screens if the two Shepards really did have some good, distinct differences.

- Better animations (already being worked on)
- A bit better direction for both VAs (IMO more like a soldier who needs to get the job done and less homicidal ****** for Renegades; perhaps a bit less swagger from Hale; less unintended flirtation due to weird inflection)
- Some specific interactions, ex: Jack--legitimate trust issues with men--and Miranda--distanced from serious relationships, possibly related to her father and physical...issues--for females; Garrus and Thane's particular family problems and latent guilt stemming from them--opportunities for males. Others, like Jacob and Ashley, could include both.

I see a lot of implication in those comments that more acknowledgment of a female Shepard's gender would = being portrayed as meek. I don't agree at all; I'd say Bioware ensures that both genders have the option of being kind, diplomatic, and assertive. Though I'm sure they're hard at work trying to believably portray Shepard as being vulnerable, I seriously doubt they'd ever flat-out make Shepard overly girly--or comically macho, for that matter.

Modifié par Memphis Slim, 29 mai 2011 - 06:16 .

[Seboist]

"Gender blindness" is just a cop-out to avoid doing extra work like with their not creating the human led council or not trying to have player choices be anything but cosmetic.

Anyone that doubts that just needs to take a look at the lack of separate animations for both genders.

[Bachi1230]

I say either way works and I felt there was a good mix of it in Mass Effect so far. Some situations Shepard's gender doesn't matter while others it gives a nice touch to the immersion. Overall I think Bioware is doing a good job of having both the female and male Shepard each be the savior of the galaxy while keeping the character true to who they are.

I'm looking at you Other M

[Inquisitor Recon]

I don't see anything wrong with people acknowledging Shepard's gender. In fact, it seems rather silly that only occurs on two occasions. It makes things seem more "real". If you're worried it is somehow going to turn FemShep into some spoiled princess you're simply overreacting.

It's a far different type of game but Mount and Blade made me think about this once. Some woman wanted help taking the throne and your character had the option of being a dick and decline based on "a woman shouldn't rule". Not very polite but that's the way the world is sometimes.

You know that private club on Omega where that turian was harassing some dancer? Well he could hit on FemShep before she punches him.

[mineralica]

Totally agreed that "girl" shouldn't be immediately followed by "girly" or "beautiful" - I have no idea why half of party in DA2 found my gorilla-like bald Hawke beautiful.
However, I can understand when it happens with faces - nobody knows how char will look, but why nobody in game interested in how not so muscular femShep carries a Widow around (39 kilos, hm?), or constantly in a heavy armour, or just a Vanguard hence always in CQC?

[Destroy Raiden_]

The article itself was OK but nothing stellar.

I liked fshep getting unique dialogue when people saw her on Omega the blue suns merc thought she was a stripper but male shep he was there for business. I want more dialogue in ME3 showing this difference be it psychological, physical, or something else and don't just make it fshep vs mshep do the opposite maybe they think he's slower and she's faster and he gets to prove them wrong!

Shep being of the new humans would have things to prove both f and m I wish he'd get challenged more perhaps the world starts demanding he be more turian make him feel like he's less because he doesn't have skin as tough as or isn't as strong compared to a Turian( are they stronger or are we equal? Saren makes me think stronger). Sense everybody in the galaxy regardless of their race knows no one is stronger then a Krogan start comparing mshep to turians or something.

I expected people to give fshep a harder time being a female spector of the human race that she'd have more to prove as if she was a girl joining the navy seals or something they'd treat her as an unusual and big deal where as mshep as a male is still a deal but not as big as fshep he earned it but she had to earn it more.

I get why Asari aren't seen as big deals because they've been doing this forever they proved themselves forever ago. I would see the galaxy thinking a Quarian male or female would be a big deal because they're suit bound, weak in both physical and immune strength, they would have tons to prove, but a tiny more of a consideration would be made for each mquarian would be like wow! But fquarian would be uber wow take photos and the whole nine yards.

I feel odd when people don't make the big deal out of her pulling hard things off like taking down the thresher maw both of them get treated the same. I wanted someone anyone after I got made to be spector saying you're a specter in a confused manner not because they're confused she's a human one but because she's a human and a woman one. Perhapse the npc thinking I know their women are in the military but I didn't think she’d try the unusual move for spector. I get people being surprised that they're human and a spector which I quite enjoyed watching them sqirm when fshep goes yep. Playing as mshep and people being shocked he's a spector I get annoyed and like him to act like it.

I think humans in general are seen as weaker or less protected flesh wise in the galaxy but we also know male and females of our species can be different strength wise most woman aren’t' as strong as their male counterparts I would assume that all the other species would assume that she would be weaker not on par with them until she proves them wrong. I kind of like fshep being like, “ Take that!” everytime she goes against the norms and she doesn't get many moments at all to brag about it or feel accomplished or happy or to flaunt about it.

I watch alot of ninja warrior and it really highlights the physical and psychological differences in men and women most women don't compete in the mens competition for one reason it's damn hard it makes those women who even come up to try that much cooler sure I think only 1 ever made it to the second stage but everytime I see one try I respect her. She's unique, she's stronger then her muscles will let her be when she decides I might fail but I'm going to give it my best. I feel she is more courageous then the males she's competing with.

They don't have to call fshep out as her or she unless they are doing so like when they salute her say ma'am. Sometimes it is odd to not be know as her I know they're using Commander Shepard to substitute for her gender at points which isn't a killer for me but a few more she or her would be better.

[Ghost Warrior]

Nyoka wrote...




We already have that. We have the batarian merc, the krogan warlord, and Harkin. Isn't that enough?

Hey,I don't really care all that much (I have only one Fem Shep playthrough anyway) but if I had to choose,then yes,I'd want more of those,so that choosing sex actually makes a difference in the story,but not big difference.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 29 mai 2011 - 06:41 .