213 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

InfiniteCuts wrote...

My personal response...

I'm not sure I agree that gender neutrality is *always* the best option for Shepard. I mean, you are trying to write a compelling story and the character's gender *should* have an impact on how certain aspects of their personality are conveyed. I'd really hate it if gender was reduced to a mere "skin" for your particular Shepard. I know people want to experience everything the opposite gender can, and they should, but I think BioWare should have the freedom to frame that experience for each gender in a unique way. This is no different from how it's done in other media (movies, novels, theater, etc), so why should things (especially gender) be "neutral" for video games? I hate that word. :/ I hope BioWare writers aren't afraid to tackle certain situations simply because they don't want to "limit" the options available to either gender. There are obvious differences between the two that would be interesting to see acknowledged in Mass Effect.

That's a good response.

My own thoughts are kinda mixed on the subject.

On one hand, yes, male and female Shepard are essentially the same character, and the majority of the game should reflect that.  And the two games did do that, for the most part.

However, making Shepard male or female is part of the creation process.  It's part of making Shepard "your" Shepard.  Just like choosing a preservice history, a psychological profile, pursuing a LI, or making paragon/renegade decisions.  The game should reflect these choices at points where it's appropriate.

An Alliance official or S-Sec officer is unlikely to care about Shepard's gender unless they're reading vital statistics off some record.  Gender as we understand it is pretty meaningless to an asari as well.  But to a krogan or batarian it might matter, and they should react appropriately.  Just as Toombs reacts differently to a Sole Survivor Shepard.  Or Administrator Anoleis has extra lines based on Shepard's birthplace.

I guess what I'm saying is that while gender shouldn't be a major factor, it should be a factor.  More of one than a skin and voiceover.  Maleshep and Femshep having the same seated graphic just doesn't work, especially when dresses are involved:P

[Not Bambi]

I pretty much agree with the article on this one. I like those little gender-specific moments, but I wouldn't want them to show up every mission. I like this game because Shepard is a badass space marine who is treated like a badass space marine, gender aside. I like that no one feels the need to comment on her gender specifically, because, really, it doesn't matter. I like that ManShep and FemShep are largely the same person, and so if you play as one rather than the other, you get largely the same experience. I feel like the personality chosen works regardless of gender, and trying to make too many differences will lead to unfortunate implications.

Not counting replacing he with she, I can't think of too many situations outside of "women can't do this" or flirting that require a special female response. You get too many situations where people are patronising Shepard, and you start to feel like the devs are patronising you. If anyone wishes to correct me, feel free, because I would actually love to see a few female-only situations that don't end with me threatening a merc. I just really can't think of any.

[aimlessgun]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

I liked fshep getting unique dialogue when people saw her on Omega the blue suns merc thought she was a stripper but male shep he was there for business. I want more dialogue in ME3 showing this difference be it psychological, physical, or something else and don't just make it fshep vs mshep do the opposite maybe they think he's slower and she's faster and he gets to prove them wrong!

Shep being of the new humans would have things to prove both f and m I wish he'd get challenged more perhaps the world starts demanding he be more turian make him feel like he's less because he doesn't have skin as tough as or isn't as strong compared to a Turian( are they stronger or are we equal? Saren makes me think stronger). Sense everybody in the galaxy regardless of their race knows no one is stronger then a Krogan start comparing mshep to turians or something.

I expected people to give fshep a harder time being a female spector of the human race that she'd have more to prove as if she was a girl joining the navy seals or something they'd treat her as an unusual and big deal where as mshep as a male is still a deal but not as big as fshep he earned it but she had to earn it more.

I get why Asari aren't seen as big deals because they've been doing this forever they proved themselves forever ago. I would see the galaxy thinking a Quarian male or female would be a big deal because they're suit bound, weak in both physical and immune strength, they would have tons to prove, but a tiny more of a consideration would be made for each mquarian would be like wow! But fquarian would be uber wow take photos and the whole nine yards.

I feel odd when people don't make the big deal out of her pulling hard things off like taking down the thresher maw both of them get treated the same. I wanted someone anyone after I got made to be spector saying you're a specter in a confused manner not because they're confused she's a human one but because she's a human and a woman one. Perhapse the npc thinking I know their women are in the military but I didn't think she’d try the unusual move for spector. I get people being surprised that they're human and a spector which I quite enjoyed watching them sqirm when fshep goes yep. Playing as mshep and people being shocked he's a spector I get annoyed and like him to act like it.

I think humans in general are seen as weaker or less protected flesh wise in the galaxy but we also know male and females of our species can be different strength wise most woman aren’t' as strong as their male counterparts I would assume that all the other species would assume that she would be weaker not on par with them until she proves them wrong. I kind of like fshep being like, “ Take that!” everytime she goes against the norms and she doesn't get many moments at all to brag about it or feel accomplished or happy or to flaunt about it.

I watch alot of ninja warrior and it really highlights the physical and psychological differences in men and women most women don't compete in the mens competition for one reason it's damn hard it makes those women who even come up to try that much cooler sure I think only 1 ever made it to the second stage but everytime I see one try I respect her. She's unique, she's stronger then her muscles will let her be when she decides I might fail but I'm going to give it my best. I feel she is more courageous then the males she's competing with.

They don't have to call fshep out as her or she unless they are doing so like when they salute her say ma'am. Sometimes it is odd to not be know as her I know they're using Commander Shepard to substitute for her gender at points which isn't a killer for me but a few more she or her would be better.

Lot of good thoughts in here. Nice point that aliens could easily discriminate more on perception of the physical strength of the whole race. 

[aimlessgun]

 I think for Shep's actions, gender blindness should continue. That's because ideally we should have all these options, and if we WANT to play Shep as associated with a specific gender, we would have those dialogue options. But don't force it upon the player. 

The way NPC's react to Shep though, that can go in any way that is appropriate to that NPC. It was appropriate for that ass Harkin, and the merc recruiter. If there are sexist NPCs in the ME universe, I welcome those interactions. 

[JamieCOTC]

I hate to presume so much, but I believe Mr. Weekes really didn't get what we were asking. Those who want the gender acknowledged don't want femshep predefined to any type be it feminine or otherwise. Predefining the character is what nets us "I'm just interested in talking for a bit" from the Jacob casual conversation. We simply want some characters to say "ma'am" or "her" a little more often or a simple acknowledgement that she is female. If for no other reason to break the monotony of "Shepard" and "Commander." ME1 seemed to have a good balance that was lost in ME2.

And this doesn't just go for femshep. The constant "Shepard" and "Commander" gets old w/ maleShep too.

[Lady Olivia]

Nice article. It's always interesting to see how the devs think about these things.

I don't crave for more gender-specific dialog lines and options for the player character, but I wouldn't mind if the NPCs had more gender-specific lines/reactions. It doesn't need to happen all the time, or in every dialog - every so often would suffice, just to make the impression that the game is aware of Shepard's gender and that it's not trying to avoid dealing with it.
 

[Bolboreta]

I like people knows that my Shepard is a female. As he said, " I don't want to assume that because someone plays FemShep, their Shepard is automatically kinder, more sensitive, or interested in flirting", but I enjoy some little changes while interacting with NPCs. I enjoyed a lot when the batarian called me stripper, because that is sexist AND that's what could have happen in real life. People is still sexist in some situations. Also, I loved the way Shepard solved the thing: showing she's a tough girl, not some whiny cutie.

And, after all, Shepard can react in different ways. She could choose if she wants to be girlie, rude, sweet or everything at the same time. That's the real roleplaying.

[Dangerfoot]

The Batarian was just annoying, as they all are. But I don't really like gender blindness. I actually quite liked the frequency of people noting my Warden's gender. It's less relevant in a game like Mass Effect, but I'd still prefer my crew call my fem-Shep ma'am.

[Ahriman]

It's good when npcs react on different Sheps differently, but in my opinion there is a lot other things that deserve more reaction than gender. Shepard's previous actions, class, morality after all.

[Canadish]

I've noticed a trend.
When talking about unique scenes for Femshep, it's always to do with sexist jerks hitting on her.
Even the Bioware writer. Surely you guys can come up something else apart from that right?

I'd agree on the whole however, Shepard's lines should be gender neutral. She's the same badass as her male counter part. Though it would be a shame to lose out on the occasional different reaction from another character.

The one thing that is REALLY annoying me is that Maleshep is being ignoured.
Why doesn't he get unique dialogue eh? Or is Male just "Neutral" now?

[Bolboreta]

Canadish wrote...

The one thing that is REALLY annoying me is that Maleshep is being ignoured.
Why doesn't he get unique dialogue eh? Or is Male just "Neutral" now?

That's not true. Male Shepard has manly animations, while FemShepard has male animations too. Also, Gianna Parasini only kisses Shepard if he is a male.

[Rm80]

well I so far played Me1 and Me2 countless amount of time.
Sometimes I play as maleshep and sometimes as femshep. reasons are because it gives some diversity to playing the game. Different voice and so on.

Im sure that Patrick can make some different lines that are not old stereotypes to gender.
In additon it is nice (as someone before pointed out) when characters in the game acknowledge your background (colonist, spacer and so on...)

Everything to increase replayability is a good thing in my book.

[MACharlie1]

Even though FemShep is the most badass chick around, there isn't any reason of her not to have the option of using the fact that she is a woman to her advantage. (i.e. Hock's party) People still want sex, right - especially the corrupt sort.

I do agree that MaleShep should also be able to do the same with some ladies. And for potential turn downs, both should have the same options for the same people. Some will turn only manShep, others femShep and sometimes they will accept both.

[Seboist]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I hate to presume so much, but I believe Mr. Weekes really didn't get what we were asking. Those who want the gender acknowledged don't want femshep predefined to any type be it feminine or otherwise. Predefining the character is what nets us "I'm just interested in talking for a bit" from the Jacob casual conversation. We simply want some characters to say "ma'am" or "her" a little more often or a simple acknowledgement that she is female. If for no other reason to break the monotony of "Shepard" and "Commander." ME1 seemed to have a good balance that was lost in ME2.

And this doesn't just go for femshep. The constant "Shepard" and "Commander" gets old w/ maleShep too.

The worst case of "Shepard" and "Commander" is when Kate Bowman from BDTS asks what's Shepard's name and s/he says...... "Commander Shepard".

[aragfore03]

I would like to see gender play a larger role in how others react to you. There are a number of examples I can give but one that leaps to mind is allowing let's say a female shep to charm someone versus fighting them. Or if we dealt with a matriarchical race would allownthem to deal more easy with fem shep. Things like that. I wouldn't want femshep to behave on a mission differently because she's female. Simply offering more moments of choice because of gender would be cool.

[JamieCOTC]

Nyoka wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

I hate to presume so much, but I believe Mr. Weekes really didn't get what we were asking. Those who want the gender acknowledged don't want femshep predefined to any type be it feminine or otherwise. Predefining the character is what nets us "I'm just interested in talking for a bit" from the Jacob casual conversation. We simply want some characters to say "ma'am" or "her" a little more often or a simple acknowledgement that she is female. If for no other reason to break the monotony of "Shepard" and "Commander." ME1 seemed to have a good balance that was lost in ME2.

And this doesn't just go for femshep. The constant "Shepard" and "Commander" gets old w/ maleShep too.

This comment needs to be posted in his blog. I fully support the ME1 way to do it, but I too perceived this request in a different way, as he did. Thanks for the clarification.

I did, not specifically this post, but the same message. 

[Gatt9]

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with Mr. Weekes,  and I think he's actually making a very limiting and harmful choice.

Choosing a gender is a concious choice when I create a character,  and I do so expecting the game to respond to my choice in some ways.  Lets contemplate a hypothetical situation for a moment...

Let's say I am at a point of discussion-conflict with a Krogan.  I am going to try to intimidate him into backing down.  Now a Male shepherd,  possessing the qualities of warrior,  is going to have potential for success...

...But a female shepherd?  Is a 120lb human woman really all that intimidating to a warrior that thrives on battle?  Is he really going to be scared or is he going to look at her and think "Yeah,  I can take her".

Obviously,  there's not gender equality,  and the universe exacerbates that by introducing warrior races who aren't going to be terribly intimidated by a fem-shep.  They might be after she slaps them around,  but before,  she lacks any kind of intimidating qualities.

There are distinct differences between the Genders,  and by just saying "Oh,  it's all neutral,  everyone's good at everything" makes the choice entirely superficial.  Why even bother defining gender?  Especially with Bioware's recent "Everyone is bisexual" thing.  Just make the character Androgenous and never commit to any kind of gender distinction.

Obviously,  the Androgenous approach would raise many people's ire,  but in reality,  that's exactly what has already happened.  By staying completely gender neutral,  by not creating gender divergence,  by following the "Everyone's Bi" path,  the character is completely sexless except for the textures rendered.

So I have to disagree with Mr. Weekes,  The game should take into account the Gender of the character,  and should result in different responses.  As he himself notes,  computationally,  the divergence is inexpensive if not trivial,  and the increased development costs in voice acting are minimal as it wouldn't be every line,  just key lines that would deviate.

[Fiery Phoenix]

InfiniteCuts wrote...

My personal response...

I'm not sure I agree that gender neutrality is *always* the best option for Shepard. I mean, you are trying to write a compelling story and the character's gender *should* have an impact on how certain aspects of their personality are conveyed. I'd really hate it if gender was reduced to a mere "skin" for your particular Shepard. I know people want to experience everything the opposite gender can, and they should, but I think BioWare should have the freedom to frame that experience for each gender in a unique way. This is no different from how it's done in other media (movies, novels, theater, etc), so why should things (especially gender) be "neutral" for video games? I hate that word. :/ I hope BioWare writers aren't afraid to tackle certain situations simply because they don't want to "limit" the options available to either gender. There are obvious differences between the two that would be interesting to see acknowledged in Mass Effect.

This is practically what I was going to say. 100% agreement.

[Dexi]

Femshep lovers are worse than Talimancers...
That, and this being the BW Social Network ( aka the "nothing-BW-does-ever-makes-me-happy community) and bang! you got a thread that won't go down easy, lol.

IMO, Bioware is doing a good job with the genders...

[Seboist]

Gatt9 wrote...

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with Mr. Weekes,  and I think he's actually making a very limiting and harmful choice.

Choosing a gender is a concious choice when I create a character,  and I do so expecting the game to respond to my choice in some ways.  Lets contemplate a hypothetical situation for a moment...

Let's say I am at a point of discussion-conflict with a Krogan.  I am going to try to intimidate him into backing down.  Now a Male shepherd,  possessing the qualities of warrior,  is going to have potential for success...

...But a female shepherd?  Is a 120lb human woman really all that intimidating to a warrior that thrives on battle?  Is he really going to be scared or is he going to look at her and think "Yeah,  I can take her".

Obviously,  there's not gender equality,  and the universe exacerbates that by introducing warrior races who aren't going to be terribly intimidated by a fem-shep.  They might be after she slaps them around,  but before,  she lacks any kind of intimidating qualities.

There are distinct differences between the Genders,  and by just saying "Oh,  it's all neutral,  everyone's good at everything" makes the choice entirely superficial.  Why even bother defining gender?  Especially with Bioware's recent "Everyone is bisexual" thing.  Just make the character Androgenous and never commit to any kind of gender distinction.

Obviously,  the Androgenous approach would raise many people's ire,  but in reality,  that's exactly what has already happened.  By staying completely gender neutral,  by not creating gender divergence,  by following the "Everyone's Bi" path,  the character is completely sexless except for the textures rendered.

So I have to disagree with Mr. Weekes,  The game should take into account the Gender of the character,  and should result in different responses.  As he himself notes,  computationally,  the divergence is inexpensive if not trivial,  and the increased development costs in voice acting are minimal as it wouldn't be every line,  just key lines that would deviate.

Great post!

I like to imagine my femshep having a protective maternal instinct with her crew and letting her hair down and engaging in girl talk with her sisters in arms Miranda and Tali inbetween missions but this game doesn't let me do anything of the sort.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Another great post by Gatt as well. Well said, sir.

[Big stupid jellyfish]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

I hate to presume so much, but I believe Mr. Weekes really didn't get what we were asking. Those who want the gender acknowledged don't want femshep predefined to any type be it feminine or otherwise. Predefining the character is what nets us "I'm just interested in talking for a bit" from the Jacob casual conversation. We simply want some characters to say "ma'am" or "her" a little more often or a simple acknowledgement that she is female. If for no other reason to break the monotony of "Shepard" and "Commander." ME1 seemed to have a good balance that was lost in ME2.

And this doesn't just go for femshep. The constant "Shepard" and "Commander" gets old w/ maleShep too.

This comment needs to be posted in his blog. I fully support the ME1 way to do it, but I too perceived this request in a different way, as he did. Thanks for the clarification.

I did, not specifically this post, but the same message. 

1. I wholeheartedly agree with this. We do not need sexism or clichees. We'd simply love to hear 'she', 'her' and 'he', 'him' more often.

2. I've posted a comment with more or less the same message in Patrick's LJ.

[Ryzaki]

If more gender exclusive content means I haveto deal with more unwanted kisses/touching of my Shepard then no I don't want gender exclusive content.

That crap is annoying.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Make every character Asexual and no one will complain.