213 réponses à ce sujet

[Destroy Raiden_]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

I want it immersive. If I pick male shepard, it's because I'm in the mood to roleplay as a man. If I pick female shepard, it's because I feel like roleplaying as a woman. It's an RPG shooter after all. What wrong with being admired for being a "great man" or a "legendary woman"?

I agree with this. Also while we're on titles no more sheps a god from Ash please I hated being called that I'm not god but hero I'll take the title hero.

[IndelibleJester]

I don't mind what direction they go in, but I would like more reaction to gender.

[Kusy]

I'm woried that in two generations BioWare games will compleatly fall into the "breaking taboos" road where we HAVE to talk about sexism, where we HAVE TO include homosexual romances. What seems to happen is that BioWare as a developer is pushed by the fanbase... Seriously? Who gives a crap about sexism? Go to a cinema in Red Dead Redemption and listen for a second, that's sexism, and nobody gives a damn. I honestly don't see why characters in game being able to tell the diffrence between male and female could be considered this in any way...

I'm a white male and I say that sexism is a myth... just like racism and gnomes.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Try doing this for one day and see how many weird looks you get. Just go around to people and talk to them and in some way, it doesn't matter how, bring up their gender.

Just think about your life and how often people actually bring up your gender in a conversation. It doesn't really happen much. I'm all for non verbal cues signifying a male character noticing the player is female and eying her up. I'm all for a female staring at the male players ass. But it's asinine and frankly absurd to expect many cases of a character actively brining up your gender. I think 2-5 is a good amount for one game.

I swear for some of you people bringing up realism you don't seem to know much about reality.

[Golden Owl]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

I'm woried that in two generations BioWare games will compleatly fall into the "breaking taboos" road where we HAVE to talk about sexism, where we HAVE TO include homosexual romances. What seems to happen is that BioWare as a developer is pushed by the fanbase... Seriously? Who gives a crap about sexism? Go to a cinema in Red Dead Redemption and listen for a second, that's sexism, and nobody gives a damn. I honestly don't see why characters in game being able to tell the diffrence between male and female could be considered this in any way...

I'm a white male and I say that sexism is a myth... just like racism and gnomes.

An interesting view point...and yes I am being serious (no sarcasm)....I would be very interested if you expanded upon these views...I am curious and interested.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Try doing this for one day and see how many weird looks you get. Just go around to people and talk to them and in some way, it doesn't matter how, bring up their gender.

Just think about your life and how often people actually bring up your gender in a conversation. It doesn't really happen much. I'm all for non verbal cues signifying a male character noticing the player is female and eying her up. I'm all for a female staring at the male players ass. But it's asinine and frankly absurd to expect many cases of a character actively brining up your gender. I think 2-5 is a good amount for one game.

I swear for some of you people bringing up realism you don't seem to know much about reality.

You know, I think you wrote out two paragraphs just so that you could use this punchline.

Nobody's saying that every character should be going "Yes ma'am, no ma'am, Ms. Shepard, hello lassy, shake that ass woman!" like you're suggesting (unless I missed something). Just a little more acknowledgement of gender would be nice; the occasional "Yes ma'am" and "No ma'am", the b-word for femSheps and the a-word for maleSheps, etc. would work much better than "Watch out, Commander!" being repeated all the time.

[Bluko]

While some gender-blindness is expected and okay, if there's too much it makes the point of choosing male or female rather meaningless to begin with. I usually play as male characters being a guy myself. So really the only inclination I've had to play as female Shepard is to see some of those different reactions.

If they didn't exist, if everyone simply called my character "Shepard" and treated my character exactly the same I probably wouldn't even bother. (Not that interested in playing Barbie with a video game character.)

To be frank the fact there is so much gender-blindess it hurts the game more then it helps. Take for example the fact that female Shepard uses almost all of the same animations. It's a bit hard for me to take some of female Shepards animations seriously considering she's much smaller then male Shepard. I mean in ME1 (Virmire Ending) it seems a bit odd female Shepard is able to carry a grown man on just her one shoulder. (Of course it also looks rather silly when male Shepard does it with Kaidan as well.) Also as other have mentioned it seems a bit unrealistic that everyone is going to react to male and female Shepard the same. Especially between members of one's own species. With aliens it's a bit more forgiveable they'd treat us more or less the same because we're already very different from them. I imagine all Krogan think Humans look rather "puny", just perhaps slightly more so with female Shepard perhaps.

Take for example the comment Harkin makes in ME1 to female Shepard in Chora's Den regarding her "combat suit". That's exactly how I would expect him to react. And that's exactly why I create a female Shepard. On the flip side I'm rather surprised almost no male or female characters change their attitude at all upon seeing female or male Shepard (unless they are a romance interest). Now I'm not saying every guy should start drooling over female Shepard or vice versa, but it is a rather well known fact that men tend to be more receptive of women, especially if they think she's pretty. I mean maybe as male Shepard Anderson might open up to my Shepard about his past marital issues, but as female Shepard he might not. Or if he did I at least expect him to ask female Shepard differently.

I dunno perhaps I'm a bit too mired in my culture's present view of gender roles, but I think the reality is that even in the near future gender will still be regarded differently. As much as society may strive for equality among all people it's just not something that can really ever happen. Especially regarding sex and gender. We're still just animals no matter how civilized we pretend we are. So for what it's worth and I don't think it's possible for us to completely overwrite nature. As long as we're Humans we will act like Humans.

As I said some gender-blindness is good, and makes sense especially in a military environment. But that's not going to be the case everywhere. So I'd say it wouldn't hut if there was a bit more acknowledgement of Shepard being a guy or gal.


On a similar note this is also I'm not a real fan of all characters being attracted/not attracted to Shepard. Shepard's gender shouldn't change the fact that a certain character may appear straight or that they may appear bisexual or gay. A character's sexuality is something that should just be established as much as whether they are male or female or what their favorite food is. One's sexuality isn't something that magically changes overnight (and if it does then that person doesn't know what their sexuality is). That said being a mature game featuring adults I hope most of the characters would have this stuff figured out by now.

Also don't get the wrong impression here. As I also mean to imply that not every female squadmate should be "woo'd" by a male Shepard. Nor should every male squadmate be vying to get into female Shepard's pants. You're telling me none of these Characters are married or simply not interested in Shepard? (This is one reason I like Samara, since she seems like the only character able to say "no" to Shepard.) Actually what I really feel missing in Mass Effect is characters seem to form almost no sorts of relationships among each other. I mean do Garrus and Tali have some sort of sibling rivalry or are they actually good friends? If Kasumi likes Jacob how come she never even flirts with him? I would love to see more of this sort of stuff in Mass Effect 3 and it's arguably why KOTOR and Baldur's Gate are so memorable for me.

Modifié par Bluko, 30 mai 2011 - 03:03 .

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Mentioning character gender via he and she would only enhance the experience in my opinion. Makes it seem like the character you made is the actual character for the role and not some generic face the developer allowed you to toss up so you could play.

Having Joker say "Shepard is going to shoot you in the face when she gets back." makes things more personal than "When Shepard arrives, your face is going to be shot up."

Gender dodging makes sense in certain scenarios, but it seems like a lack of effort when it's something like the above.

[Eshaye]

Bluko wrote...
Also don't get the wrong impression here. As I also mean to imply that not every female squadmate should be "woo'd" by a male Shepard. Nor should every male squadmate be vying to get into female Shepard's pants. You're telling me none of these Characters are married or simply not interested in Shepard? (This is one reason I like Samara, since she seems like the only character able to say "no" to Shepard.) Actually what I really feel missing in Mass Effect is characters seem to form almost no sorts of relationships among each other. I mean do Garrus and Tali have some sort of sibling rivalry or are they actually good friends? If Kasumi likes Jacob how come she never even flirts with him? I would love to see more of this sort of stuff in Mass Effect 3 and it's arguably why KOTOR and Baldur's Gate are so memorable for me.

What a great post! This last paragraph here is exactly what I would love to see as well. In ME1 it's inferred that Ashley may have a thing for Kaidan, especially if Shepard pursues neither of them. I thought that was a really nice touch! Shepard doesn't have to be the end all and be all of romantic interests. In ME2 I would rather have seen something happen between Miranda and Jacob because they have history and honestly I think they match each other better then either of them with a Shep... I have yet to play the Kasumi DLC so I don't know about her attraction to Jacob, but again let's see more of that! 

And my main opionion on this gender thing is that for Femshep it's totally okay for her to display feminine qualities AND kick butt. As for male Shep, I don't know I never play him, poor thing. 

[Gatt9]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

I'm woried that in two generations BioWare games will compleatly fall into the "breaking taboos" road where we HAVE to talk about sexism, where we HAVE TO include homosexual romances. What seems to happen is that BioWare as a developer is pushed by the fanbase... Seriously? Who gives a crap about sexism? Go to a cinema in Red Dead Redemption and listen for a second, that's sexism, and nobody gives a damn. I honestly don't see why characters in game being able to tell the diffrence between male and female could be considered this in any way...

I'm a white male and I say that sexism is a myth... just like racism and gnomes.

I suspect this is a very valid concern.

Judging from events surrounding DA2 and it's design,  I suspect there's some inner turmoil over at Bioware that's spilled into the games.  I got the impression that people shrugged off Player's concerns about everyone being Bi in DA2,  and it strongly telegraphs to me that there's issues.  Issues that go well beyond good storytelling or good design.

Now don't misread that,  I'm not condemning the Homosexual romances,  I'm saying that the implementation used was just as vapid no matter which side of the fence you walk on.

Which telegraphs to me that it's not being approached as a good narrative point,  but rather an attempt to be "Edgy".  An approach that was designed as a good narrative point would've been handled as Brokeback Mountain did,  not like "You can romance everyone no matter who you are!" deal.

I mean seriously,  outside of the novelty,  did the Homosexual community really want everyone Bi too?  I doubt it,  I'd imagine they wanted romances to be just as well designed and told as any Hetero romance might be.  I really doubt they wanted a same sex partner who jumped the fence at random.

I expect that someone somewhere in EA decided the Liara romance was such great free press that they should keep pushing "Edgy!" to try to get more free press for Bioware games.

Which ends up working just about as well as DA2 did,  vapid games make for poor sales.

[Gabey5]

Jzadek72 wrote...

I agree on both counts. I always liked when the gender was noticed, but at the same time, it's good Shep remains gender neutral because, a couple hundred years in the future, I can see gender becoming less of an issue. A couple of hundred years in the past, gender determined most of what was expected of a person. Now, that divide has thinned, and will probably continue getting thinner.

among humans yes but all the aliens won't be the same

[ElitePinecone]

Been reading this thread and both of Patrick's posts - some really interesting discussion.

I definitely would appreciate more acknowledgement of Shepard's gender through pronouns and sir/ma'am. It does get odd when characters deliberately go out of their way to say "Commander Shepard" when, in context, 'he' or 'she' would sound much better.

I don't agree that separate reactions from characters (or even separate situations based on gender) should be implemented. We have no idea about gender roles in 2185, about alien reactions to gender roles or Shepard's own personality or mannerisms outside of the boundary of the game. It would be a mistake to typify maleShep as gruff or badass, and femShep as either a femme fatale or maternal/caring.

Shepard's gender is important, and should be acknowledged by pronouns and the occasional interaction, but making light of it at every opportunity would be a step backwards from the professionalism of ME/ME2.

[CannotCompute]

FemShep should definitely be as strong a character as MaleShep. And yes, it would be welcome to get the opportunity to emotionally vent certain occurrences when not on a mission, regardless of playing a male or female character (as long as there's still the option to not laugh or cry about something). The more ways to shape your Shep, the better.

Modifié par CannotCompute, 30 mai 2011 - 07:11 .

[Comsky159]

I imagine it would be quite difficult as a video-game writer to write different dialogue and action sequences for different genders, because we live in a society that has become overtly hypersensitive to feminist (and more recently actually masculinist) discourses in literature. I think you would have to be very cautious about what is done for fear of being condemned as sexist.

As a society I don't think we are ready yet for anything but gender neutral gameplay, but personally I think it would be very refreshing and brlliant for player immersion. Cheers for the thread!

Modifié par Comsky159, 30 mai 2011 - 07:34 .

[Comsky159]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

I'm woried that in two generations BioWare games will compleatly fall into the "breaking taboos" road where we HAVE to talk about sexism, where we HAVE TO include homosexual romances. What seems to happen is that BioWare as a developer is pushed by the fanbase... Seriously? Who gives a crap about sexism? Go to a cinema in Red Dead Redemption and listen for a second, that's sexism, and nobody gives a damn. I honestly don't see why characters in game being able to tell the diffrence between male and female could be considered this in any way...

I'm a white male and I say that sexism is a myth... just like racism and gnomes.

In Australia this is certainly true. In fact if anything feminism has become almost a supremacist movement.

That's why I'm a masculinist

[Ghost Warrior]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

@Ryzaki - sorry to be rude,but it's just a kiss.Develop some social skills.

That's hilarious coming from you.

What is that supposed to mean?

Aye. Liara only gets a pass because Shepard at least knows her well. The others...you met them like once and then they start acting like Shep and them are best buds.  

Again I have no problem with them touching Shepard. I have a problem with my Shepard's reaction to the touching. It's a removal of player control where there doesn't need to be any. 

When you put it that way,I agree. There should have been an option to push her away or something.

[Ghost Warrior]

Bluko wrote...

While some gender-blindness is expected and okay, if there's too much it makes the point of choosing male or female rather meaningless to begin with. I usually play as male characters being a guy myself. So really the only inclination I've had to play as female Shepard is to see some of those different reactions.

If they didn't exist, if everyone simply called my character "Shepard" and treated my character exactly the same I probably wouldn't even bother. (Not that interested in playing Barbie with a video game character.)

To be frank the fact there is so much gender-blindess it hurts the game more then it helps. Take for example the fact that female Shepard uses almost all of the same animations. It's a bit hard for me to take some of female Shepards animations seriously considering she's much smaller then male Shepard. I mean in ME1 (Virmire Ending) it seems a bit odd female Shepard is able to carry a grown man on just her one shoulder. (Of course it also looks rather silly when male Shepard does it with Kaidan as well.) Also as other have mentioned it seems a bit unrealistic that everyone is going to react to male and female Shepard the same. Especially between members of one's own species. With aliens it's a bit more forgiveable they'd treat us more or less the same because we're already very different from them. I imagine all Krogan think Humans look rather "puny", just perhaps slightly more so with female Shepard perhaps.

Take for example the comment Harkin makes in ME1 to female Shepard in Chora's Den regarding her "combat suit". That's exactly how I would expect him to react. And that's exactly why I create a female Shepard. On the flip side I'm rather surprised almost no male or female characters change their attitude at all upon seeing female or male Shepard (unless they are a romance interest). Now I'm not saying every guy should start drooling over female Shepard or vice versa, but it is a rather well known fact that men tend to be more receptive of women, especially if they think she's pretty. I mean maybe as male Shepard Anderson might open up to my Shepard about his past marital issues, but as female Shepard he might not. Or if he did I at least expect him to ask female Shepard differently.

I dunno perhaps I'm a bit too mired in my culture's present view of gender roles, but I think the reality is that even in the near future gender will still be regarded differently. As much as society may strive for equality among all people it's just not something that can really ever happen. Especially regarding sex and gender. We're still just animals no matter how civilized we pretend we are. So for what it's worth and I don't think it's possible for us to completely overwrite nature. As long as we're Humans we will act like Humans.

As I said some gender-blindness is good, and makes sense especially in a military environment. But that's not going to be the case everywhere. So I'd say it wouldn't hut if there was a bit more acknowledgement of Shepard being a guy or gal.


On a similar note this is also I'm not a real fan of all characters being attracted/not attracted to Shepard. Shepard's gender shouldn't change the fact that a certain character may appear straight or that they may appear bisexual or gay. A character's sexuality is something that should just be established as much as whether they are male or female or what their favorite food is. One's sexuality isn't something that magically changes overnight (and if it does then that person doesn't know what their sexuality is). That said being a mature game featuring adults I hope most of the characters would have this stuff figured out by now.

Also don't get the wrong impression here. As I also mean to imply that not every female squadmate should be "woo'd" by a male Shepard. Nor should every male squadmate be vying to get into female Shepard's pants. You're telling me none of these Characters are married or simply not interested in Shepard? (This is one reason I like Samara, since she seems like the only character able to say "no" to Shepard.) Actually what I really feel missing in Mass Effect is characters seem to form almost no sorts of relationships among each other. I mean do Garrus and Tali have some sort of sibling rivalry or are they actually good friends? If Kasumi likes Jacob how come she never even flirts with him? I would love to see more of this sort of stuff in Mass Effect 3 and it's arguably why KOTOR and Baldur's Gate are so memorable for me.

Good post,I agree.

[Dangerfoot]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Try doing this for one day and see how many weird looks you get. Just go around to people and talk to them and in some way, it doesn't matter how, bring up their gender.

First of all, talking to strangers nets you awkward looks period. But here:

"Excuse me miss"
"Do you need help with that sir?"

There you go, I just asked a girl a question and helped a guy get throgh the door while he was holding boxes. And guess what, they probably don't think I'm weird.

[Phaedon]

People that think that gender-blindness is 'hurtful' are missing his point;

As he said, you DON'T want to put women or men in situations that they are not comfortable with. Video games are supposed to be an escape from reality, not a reminder of it. Not to mention that, realistically, sexism in the 2180s should be very, very, rare.

No, gender blindness on some matters is different than gender recognition in general. Putting any gender-unique situations, even if there is a smart way to get past it quickly, is really pushing it.

As for the poster who suggested that the asari should communicate more easily with FemShep, err, come on.

As for krogan and batarians, even if each gender has vastly different roles in their homeworlds, there is no chance that someone who has even been a few months away from their homeworld would have the same assumption for other races.

[Nashiktal]

Phaedon wrote...

People that think that gender-blindness is 'hurtful' are missing his point;

As he said, you DON'T want to put women or men in situations that they are not comfortable with. Video games are supposed to be an escape from reality, not a reminder of it. Not to mention that, realistically, sexism in the 2180s should be very, very, rare.

No, gender blindness on some matters is different than gender recognition in general. Putting any gender-unique situations, even if there is a smart way to get past it quickly, is really pushing it.

As for the poster who suggested that the asari should communicate more easily with FemShep, err, come on.

As for krogan and batarians, even if each gender has vastly different roles in their homeworlds, there is no chance that someone who has even been a few months away from their homeworld would have the same assumption for other races.

I agree with every point except the last one Phaedon. When two cultures clash, it is rare for the individual NOT to apply their cultural understanding to another no matter where they are from. Thats just what you know. That is not to say a Batarian would try to enslave every human he see's, but too him slavery is part of his culture, his society. I am unsure I that is a proper analogy, but there you go.

Perhaps if the individual had some sort of xenosociology class it might be different.