213 réponses à ce sujet

[Dangerfoot]

Phaedon wrote...

People that think that gender-blindness is 'hurtful' are missing his point;

As he said, you DON'T want to put women or men in situations that they are not comfortable with. Video games are supposed to be an escape from reality, not a reminder of it. Not to mention that, realistically, sexism in the 2180s should be very, very, rare.

No, gender blindness on some matters is different than gender recognition in general. Putting any gender-unique situations, even if there is a smart way to get past it quickly, is really pushing it.

As for the poster who suggested that the asari should communicate more easily with FemShep, err, come on.

As for krogan and batarians, even if each gender has vastly different roles in their homeworlds, there is no chance that someone who has even been a few months away from their homeworld would have the same assumption for other races.

I often play female characters, and I would like for NPCs to acknowledge it occasionally. I don't want them to pat my character's butt or something, I want people to just acknowledge that this is a woman saving the galaxy and to say thank you like good little boys. Call her "ma'am" sometimes, not "commandercommandercommandercommandercommander".

[Ryzaki]

Dangerfoot wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

People that think that gender-blindness is 'hurtful' are missing his point;

As he said, you DON'T want to put women or men in situations that they are not comfortable with. Video games are supposed to be an escape from reality, not a reminder of it. Not to mention that, realistically, sexism in the 2180s should be very, very, rare.

No, gender blindness on some matters is different than gender recognition in general. Putting any gender-unique situations, even if there is a smart way to get past it quickly, is really pushing it.

As for the poster who suggested that the asari should communicate more easily with FemShep, err, come on.

As for krogan and batarians, even if each gender has vastly different roles in their homeworlds, there is no chance that someone who has even been a few months away from their homeworld would have the same assumption for other races.

I often play female characters, and I would like for NPCs to acknowledge it occasionally. I don't want them to pat my character's butt or something, I want people to just acknowledge that this is a woman saving the galaxy and to say thank you like good little boys. Call her "ma'am" sometimes, not "commandercommandercommandercommandercommander".

Being called ma'am isn't really being treated differently because of gender. It's just being called ma'am. Male Shepard would get the same scenario but with sir instead. 

Harkin hitting on FemShep or that "oh you're a dancer?" thing is being treated differently because of gender. Male Shepard wouldn't get the same scenario. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mai 2011 - 08:40 .

[Ghost Warrior]

Phaedon wrote...


No, gender blindness on some matters is different than gender recognition in general. Putting any gender-unique situations, even if there is a smart way to get past it quickly, is really pushing it.

I disagree. If it's done so it's insulting to one of the genders then I understand the problem. But if there are simply two different paths for each gender or some character responding differently to certain gender, I really don't see what all fuss is about. People around here are over-sensitive and they are the ones pushing it.
"Oh I want gender-blindness,sex-blindness,..." Difference between genders will always be there,not necessarily in a bad way.

For example,remember when Garrus first came aboard. There were different dialogues for both genders,both unique and funny. I fail to see what's wrong with that.

[Phaedon]

Dangerfoot wrote...
I often play female characters, and I would like for NPCs to acknowledge it occasionally. I don't want them to pat my character's butt or something, I want people to just acknowledge that this is a woman saving the galaxy and to say thank you like good little boys. Call her "ma'am" sometimes, not "commandercommandercommandercommandercommander".

And I am all for that. It may be a bit of extra work for the voice acting, but it would help the experience.

Nashiktal wrote...
I agree with every point except the last one Phaedon. When two cultures clash, it is rare for the individual NOT to apply their cultural understanding to another no matter where they are from. Thats just what you know. That is not to say a Batarian would try to enslave every human he see's, but too him slavery is part of his culture, his society. I am unsure I that is a proper analogy, but there you go.

Perhaps if the individual had some sort of xenosociology class it might be different.

I do understand your point, but for these people to survive in an alien community, they would have to supress their beliefs. It doesn't mean that they are not racist/sexist/etc, but I doubt that they can scream "Omg, all you women are so weak/all you men are so dumb!"

[Phaedon]

Ghost Warrior wrote...
I disagree. If it's done so it's insulting to one of the genders then I understand the problem. But if there are simply two different paths for each gender or some character responding differently to certain gender, I really don't see what all fuss is about. People around here are over-sensitive and they are the ones pushing it. 
"Oh I want gender-blindness,sex-blindness,..." Difference between genders will always be there,not necessarily in a bad way.

For example,remember when Garrus first came aboard. There were different dialogues for both genders,both unique and funny. I fail to see what's wrong with that.

I do see your point, however, try to think of the reason behind unique gender dialogue.

You are going to have to assume that gender have different properties, you can always include " X gender is seen as Y by this race" as a property, thus evading stereotyping, but you are probably going to bring the players to uncomfortable positions.

As for some squadmates showing some basic level of attraction, based on your gender, I don't have much trouble with that, as long as they don't hit on you.

[CannotCompute]

Ryzaki wrote...

Harkin hitting on FemShep or that "oh you're a dancer?" thing is being treated differently because of gender. Male Shepard wouldn't get the same scenario. 

Loved that scene in ME1. 'Twas great to see FemShep destroy Harkin by making awesome retorts. I really hope to see such a situation at least once in ME3.

Modifié par CannotCompute, 30 mai 2011 - 09:01 .

[wepeel_]

I don't agree with PW's notion that uncomfortable situations that might arise in someone's real life are best avoided in games. Mayhap if you make a game for small children, but when it comes to more mature and immersive games, such decisions seem to direct the game more toward a Disneyland kind of reality where everyone is strangely politically correct. The main difference should be that in the game, you should be able to stand up for your opinions and influence the situation.

This is a bit of a contrast  to many of Rockstar's later games, who go more in the opposite direction. They're not afraid to portray sensitive issues, but they also aren't fond of letting the player decide how to react or dictate any of the in-game outcomes. BioWare could present the best of those paths here - a sometimes uncomfortable reality, that you can make a stand to affect.

Modifié par wepeel_, 30 mai 2011 - 09:26 .

[Phaedon]

wepeel_ wrote...


I don't agree with PW's notion that uncomfortable situations that might arise in someone's real life are best avoided in games. Mayhap if you make a game for small children, but when it comes to more mature and immersive games, such decisions seem to direct the game more toward a Disneyland kind of reality where everyone is strangely politically correct.

Mature=/=uncomfortable.

For example, a game centered about your character losing her/his job all the time and having massive fights with their wife, is not exactly mature. It's just not fun to play through. 

And what "sensitive" issues does Rockstar touch?
Drugs, sex and violence are not exactly sensitive for the average Joe.

There is no racism in GTA:SA (despite the ending), and none of the "big guys" are treating Niko as a second class citinzen for being an immigrant. You always play as a male character, so sexism against the PC does not appear at all.

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 mai 2011 - 09:32 .

[sissysouthpaw]

Interesting topic. I lean towards gender-blindness but on the other hand, it would be nice to have some differences for replay value. However... Right now I'm playing DA as an elf and it gets old very fast when so many NPCs I meet go "lookit, an elf." And I'm like "OH RLY? I had no idea! Thank you for pointing that out!" I don't want that to happen in ME3.

Those who are in favour of differences, what would you like to see? Apart from the pronouns and the Sir/Ma'm thing. And punching sexist pigs. Is there a positive way to do it?

[Bostur]

Interesting article. But I think he is too focused on gender, this is a mucher wider subject ;-)


I like it when a game acknowledges what my character is, what it does, and what choices it makes. When ME2 makes superficial gender distinctions "She is a bloody icon" / "He is a bloody icon", its not really about gender its about making the character feel real. In that scene Miranda isn't talking about a generic person. She is talking about someone specific, who did something that was real. The small distinction between 'he' and 'she' makes it obvious that this is not just some generic construct.

Bioware often make generic protagonists, and I think this is on purpose in order to provide a blank sheet that we players can add emotion to. I think this is a reasonable strategy to use. Some balance has to be maintained though, if a character is too generic it feels dead, and if it has too much personality we feel like observers.
I think the amount of depth in a protagonist is the real subject that matters here, not gender.

To me gender alone does not define a person, a lot of other things do. But if a game tries to be too gender neutral, in the end the only difference we notice is the difference in gender. If the game makes the assumption that FemShep and MaleShep is the exact same person with different sized boobs, this will only make the gender difference more pronounced. But if the two shepards were treated as slightly different persons we would put more focus on the actual differences and less focus on the gender.


In the end if we try to imagine a man and a woman as being mirror images of each other, exact same person but different gender, then we enter a territory of uncanny valley. It feels unreal, it feels artificial. Because such a pairing will never exist. But if the two people are made slightly different, they will start to feel much more real.

I think it is fine if a female and male protagonist pairing has distinct differences. Maybe one collects stamps and another likes to go hunting. That adds character and life, and makes the gender matter less. They can still be equal in terms of potential and main story opportunity.

[wepeel_]

Phaedon wrote...

wepeel_ wrote...


I don't agree with PW's notion that uncomfortable situations that might arise in someone's real life are best avoided in games. Mayhap if you make a game for small children, but when it comes to more mature and immersive games, such decisions seem to direct the game more toward a Disneyland kind of reality where everyone is strangely politically correct.

Mature=/=uncomfortable.

For example, a game centered about your character losing her/his job all the time and having massive fights with their wife, is not exactly mature. It's just not fun to play through. 

And what "sensitive" issues does Rockstar touch?
Drugs, sex and violence are not exactly sensitive for the average Joe.

There is no racism in GTA:SA (despite the ending), and none of the "big guys" are treating Niko as a second class citinzen for being an immigrant. You always play as a male character, so sexism against the PC does not appear at all.

They do comment on Niko's heritage and being fresh off the boat rather than just treating him as a standard American though, which is at least a step in that direction. RDR shows a woman being used and abused by a man in power which can be considered sexist but not at all uncommon - and as mentioned earlier in this thread, a certain cinema definitely brings up sexist and male/female role issues, albeit in a humourous way. You don't necessarily have to sledgehammer such issues in order to include them.

And I don't mean that a game should be centered on themes like the ones you mention; inclusion =/= focus - but neither do I agree with a policy that figures everything that might feel a little too close to home to someone should be left out. Issues like that should in no way be allowed to control the game, but inserted here and there they serve to bring nuance and make the game world feel more real.

[Ryzaki]

wepeel_ wrote...
They do comment on Niko's heritage and being fresh off the boat rather than just treating him as a standard American though, which is at least a step in that direction. RDR shows a woman being used and abused by a man in power which can be considered sexist but not at all uncommon - and as mentioned earlier in this thread, a certain cinema definitely brings up sexist and male/female role issues, albeit in a humourous way. You don't necessarily have to sledgehammer such issues in order to include them.

And I don't mean that a game should be centered on themes like the ones you mention; inclusion =/= focus - but neither do I agree with a policy that figures everything that might feel a little too close to home to someone should be left out. Issues like that should in no way be allowed to control the game, but inserted here and there they serve to bring nuance and make the game world feel more real.

Like what happened on Jacob's loyalty mission? 

I don't mind differences in gender. 

I have issues with my character being treated like dirt or as somehow lesser because its "edgy and real." when there's a 99% chance male characters won't get the same or even similar treatment in a different scenario. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be alone in that either.  Unless of course male Shepards get people questioning their ability and authority because they're males (sadly the one species that would be most likely with i.e. the Asari already don't do that). 

That said I shouldn't get upset because I don't play FemShep anyways. My only femshep is still in ME1.  


Edit: Nevermind. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mai 2011 - 09:52 .

[NorDee65]

"Gender-blindness" in video games seems to equal "no discrimination because of sex/gender", which is a nice concept all by itself:innocent:.
However, discussions on this topic have so far shown, that opinions exist on several levels, some of which are mutually exclusive.
For example, some have argued, that since male and female are biologically dimorph, it does not make sense to portray them as equally strong (that is a very, very old and overused argument, but there it is). Others argue, that ME ist taking place in the future, albeit not the far future, and with enhancement, the strength argument should be obsolete. (Although, for a Krogan, it is quite immaterial whether he gets headbutted by a male or female Shep. Strengthwise it can be compared with a fly settling on a human arm (well, maybe not exactly)). Lastly, if male Shep were to be compared with an athlete like U. Bolt, the argument could be made, that no female athlete will seriously compete against Bolt with hopes of winning. Alas, few male athletes would either...The strength bell-curve for males and females show quite a large area of overlapping, so the argument is relative, up to a point.

Gender blindness, as it was adapted in ME2 shows male and female Shep sharing movement and posture. The problem in that is, that it is not "gender-blind", but "female-ignoring". No one would even attempt to state that maleSep shares femShep walks:whistle:. ME1 was certainly more gender-blind in that respect.

In game, acknowledging the respective gender of Shepard would only matter in human space, as most aliens could care less (well maybe not the Batarians, but I don`t really want to go there). The question remains how far removed humanity is from stone-age man (maybe an insult to stone-age man?), and whether gender discriminations are a thing of the past. For instance, if Shepard grew up in one of Earth Megacity`s slums, were the experiences exactly the same? I personally doubt that. In-game acknowledgement as evidenced by different reactions of NPCs to male and female Shepard are fine, and should continue, were they are deemed appropiate.

All in all, there is a difference in portraying femShep as having the same opportunities/choices as maleShep to completely ignoring her gender. But if I would have to make a choice between "gender-blindness" as discussed, and femShep being portayed like a 1950s idea of the poper western white suburban female, I´d always go for gender-blindness:devil:

[Fiery Phoenix]

SilentNukee wrote...

I think he misunderstood us. As I tweeted to him: "We don't want softer lines for FemShep, we just want to see her as something other than a killbot. Emotion, for both Sheps."
That is what we really need. And apparently, we will get it, but only between missions: http://pats-quinade....com/229174.html
I like the way ME1/2 handles those particular gendered-identity situations, though minimal, I see it as how it's just meant to be.

That's what I gathered as well. They're basically sticking to the same formula as in ME1 and ME2, where Shepard is a total emotionless brick during missions but gets to express emotions and shows that little human side during the off-hours. Frankly, I don't see why it would be wrong to include "human" moments during missions; in fact, it has the potential to make it all the more impressive. But we'll see what happens...

[Whereto]

Ehh.. Either gender and Shepard would still whoop anyone's ass that discriminated against their gender so I don't really mind.

[Clonedzero]

Phaedon wrote...

wepeel_ wrote...


I don't agree with PW's notion that uncomfortable situations that might arise in someone's real life are best avoided in games. Mayhap if you make a game for small children, but when it comes to more mature and immersive games, such decisions seem to direct the game more toward a Disneyland kind of reality where everyone is strangely politically correct.

Mature=/=uncomfortable.

For example, a game centered about your character losing her/his job all the time and having massive fights with their wife, is not exactly mature. It's just not fun to play through. 

And what "sensitive" issues does Rockstar touch?
Drugs, sex and violence are not exactly sensitive for the average Joe.

There is no racism in GTA:SA (despite the ending), and none of the "big guys" are treating Niko as a second class citinzen for being an immigrant. You always play as a male character, so sexism against the PC does not appear at all.

gta:sa? niko? you seem a bit mixxed up there, im guessing you mean gta4.

and yes. there is ALOT of racism in GTA:4 lol. like at TON. hell theres racism against every group i can even think of.

[M8DMAN]

The Gender Blindness does get on my nerves a little bit.

Modifié par M8DMAN, 30 mai 2011 - 02:58 .

[SalsaDMA]

I liked Harkins comments in ME1 from a roleplaying and storytelling view. It added immersion and added a touch of detail to the setting (and I liked Female Shepards response to him even more "Call me princess one more time...").

I really see ignoring stuff like characters genders as watering down the storytelling and attention to detail the gameworld tries to show off as you attempt to immerse yourself in it.

In my opinion, anything that makes use of the distinguishing bits of a character, even if subtle (sometimes especially if subtle), adds to the atmosphere and immersive ability of the product. For example, the background choices of spacer/earthborn/colonist and ruthless/warhero/sole-survivor also has far too little impact on the characters.

These choices are part of who the character is, yet they get ignored, and for what? A misunderstood attempt at being PC? Pftftft.

I really don't get the thing the blog states about the personality being affected be gender. Personality should be affected by the CONVERSATION choices and/or interupt options the player chooses. Gender, or any other background decision, has little to say in this regard.
If I want to play an empathic Shepard, then I would asume I would get this by picking paragon choices, regardless of genderchoice. If I wanted the more cold Shepard, I would asume to get this by selecting renegade options, again regardless of gender.

Gender doesn't define the person, choices does. But acknowledging a persons gender helps establish a more solid character that feels more real in the world in which it participates in.

[wepeel_]

NorDee65 wrote...

Lastly, if male Shep were to be compared with an athlete like U. Bolt, the argument could be made, that no female athlete will seriously compete against Bolt with hopes of winning. Alas, few male athletes would either...The strength bell-curve for males and females show quite a large area of overlapping, so the argument is relative, up to a point.

Gender blindness, as it was adapted in ME2 shows male and female Shep sharing movement and posture. The problem in that is, that it is not "gender-blind", but "female-ignoring". No one would even attempt to state that maleSep shares femShep walks:whistle:. ME1 was certainly more gender-blind in that respect.

Well, if we take two humans who are both top athletes and close to their physical peak, as Shepard is likely to be regardless of sex, the male is likely to outdo the female. Bolt runs faster than the top female sprinter. The top male boxer would beat the top female boxer. The top male triathlete would beat the top female, and so on. I can't see any actual flaw with that argument, but I do see the need to disregard things like that when it comes to game balance and getting to make a choice you can identify with without having to measure stats or worry about in-game advantages.

As for the walk, I agree that more and better animations would be nice. However, I also notice that a lot of fans of female Shepard would like her to be just as strong, tough and buff as a male, but seemingly without losing any of her delicate female grace, which is rarely the case with real-world equivalents.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

What SalsaDMA said.

I also see people assuming that making some convos or lines dependent on a character's gender would automatically make it uncomfortable; this shouldn't really be the case. The writers in Bioware are obviously very concerned about being PC (not really what I think is necessary to move games forward as an art form, but whatever), so I highly doubt they'd deliberately make femShep appear weak in some cutscenes while having maleShep appear to be the opposite; THAT's insensitive.

It's also insensitive to touch on drug use (including alcohol), strippers, genocide, etc. but Bioware does anyway, because despite what emotions those themes may stir in some people, they help to tell a good story. In the case of acknowledging gender, the character and, consequentially, the story, would benefit from it by better solidifying the character that gamers have chosen to play, and it would bring authenticity to the role as well.

Some women are uncomfortable with being hit on by sexist pigs like Harkin? Threaten him; make him look like a coward. That should only serve to intensify the player's connection to femShep felt during that particular scene by generating respect for femShep; in light of Bioware's goal of achieving an emotionally engaging experience, I don't see how this could possibly be bad. As long as Bioware doesn't start making a point of challenging our chosen gender at every turn, but simply acknowledges and adjusts some of Shepard's and some NPCs' reactions to make the character stand out, they SHOULD absolutely go for it.

It doesn't even have to be blatantly slap-in-the-face worthy, for Christ's sake. Have an asari NPC tell FemShep how "attuned" she feels towards human females; for maleShep, have the asari suggest that human males are harder to connect with, but that she admires their resistance in some ways... in a bar, a human cocktail waitress lets slip to femShep that she's glad the first human Spectre

[Mr. MannlyMan]

... was a woman. With a maleShep, the same waitress could hit on him. Even less antagonizing, just give us occasional pronoun differences. What's the problem with that? "Sir", "ma'am", etc... are people really against the use of such pronouns? I've never heard of a developer that steered away from their use due to the issue of political correctness... it just seems extremely silly and petty, tbh. Why go that way when using these would better define the character? It's not like femSheps who play femShep are trying to forget what gender they play, are they? So what's the problem?

[JoHnDoE14]

 It would certainly be better to hear references being made to it and anything I, as a player, have chosen. But I understand this, since writng different lines for both genders is (even a little) costly. Still, at least some minimal mention like what we had in ME2 would be nice.
 Having said that, I disagree with the writer. I want ME to be a realistic world as much as possible. And as he said there are bound to be sexists in the ME universe (I mean, hey the Asari techically are 'monogendered', they should be sexist!)

Modifié par JoHnDoE14, 30 mai 2011 - 06:12 .

[Iakus]

Liisi wrote...

Interesting topic. I lean towards gender-blindness but on the other hand, it would be nice to have some differences for replay value. However... Right now I'm playing DA as an elf and it gets old very fast when so many NPCs I meet go "lookit, an elf." And I'm like "OH RLY? I had no idea! Thank you for pointing that out!" I don't want that to happen in ME3.

Of course, if we visit batarian worlds in ME3, we'll probably get a lot of "lookit, a human!" comments 

Those who are in favour of differences, what would you like to see? Apart from the pronouns and the Sir/Ma'm thing. And punching sexist pigs. Is there a positive way to do it?

Well, those cover what are probably the vast majority of the differences that could/should be in the game.  Others that I can think of might be:

Shepard's outfits.  As seen in the Kasumi DLC, maleShep got a formal suit, while Femshep got a black dress.  Provided femShep's seated animation is appropriate for it, of course...

Shepard's cybernetics:  I could see Shepard being scanned by Alliance personnel and comments made (perhaps slightly off-color) about Shepard's internal workings.

If we wanted something more in-depth:

Mixups or faux paus in dealing with aliens.  What if, for example, the Hanar Illuminated Primacy was a matriarchal society, and assumed, Miranda (or some other female member of your squad) was in charge rather than maleShep?  Given how hanar shopkeepers act, I could only imagine the amount of apologies heaped upon him when the correction was made 

A conversation concerning the genophage comes up, perhaps while speaking with a female krogan.  I could imagine different conversation options (note:  options) coming up based on being male or female.

A discussion about batarian caste system.  I could see things coming up where comments to, and comments from Shepard regarding the role of women in batarian society

Note I am not especially endorsing any particular feature listed here.  I'm simply tossing them out as potential options.

[Phaedon]

wepeel_ wrote...
They do comment on Niko's heritage and being fresh off the boat rather than just treating him as a standard American though, which is at least a step in that direction.

Not really.
Nobody comments on his nationality, and mentioning that he is fresh off the boat is not in a hostile tone.

RDR shows a woman being used and abused by a man in power which can be considered sexist but not at all uncommon - and as mentioned earlier in this thread, a certain cinema definitely brings up sexist and male/female role issues, albeit in a humourous way. You don't necessarily have to sledgehammer such issues in order to include them.

I haven't played RDR, so I'll take your word for it.
However, it's a different thing to introduce this situation, and another to have the PC as the victim of it.

And I don't mean that a game should be centered on themes like the ones you mention; inclusion =/= focus - but neither do I agree with a policy that figures everything that might feel a little too close to home to someone should be left out. Issues like that should in no way be allowed to control the game, but inserted here and there they serve to bring nuance and make the game world feel more real.

But why should they be in, in the first place?

Sexism in the future makes little sense anyway, and really, I don't see the point of risking it. Picking a gender, or another characteristic, such as haircolour, and skin colour, is a completely different thing from picking your origins.

And well, ME1/2 support various skin tones as well, right? Why not include some racism while you are at it? I don't see how it is any different. And yet, you would be uncomfortable with that, right?

Clonedzero wrote...
gta:sa? niko? you seem a bit mixxed up there, im guessing you mean gta4.

and yes. there is ALOT of racism in GTA:4 lol. like at TON. hell theres racism against every group i can even think of.

As I said, there is no, or at least not much racism in GTA:SA. You are mostly treated like scum by the SAPD because you are from a ghetto, not because you are playing a black character. 
And none of the 'big players' keep reminding Niko of how he is a poor immigrant. There are some conflicts with another group in the beginning, with their nationality being quite evident, and if you take Niko's nationality into consideration, you start thinking that your R* may wanted to take things a bit further, but that doesn't happen, after all.

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 mai 2011 - 06:22 .