213 réponses à ce sujet

[Gatt9]

Phaedon wrote...

People that think that gender-blindness is 'hurtful' are missing his point;

As he said, you DON'T want to put women or men in situations that they are not comfortable with. Video games are supposed to be an escape from reality, not a reminder of it. Not to mention that, realistically, sexism in the 2180s should be very, very, rare.

No, gender blindness on some matters is different than gender recognition in general. Putting any gender-unique situations, even if there is a smart way to get past it quickly, is really pushing it.

As for the poster who suggested that the asari should communicate more easily with FemShep, err, come on.

As for krogan and batarians, even if each gender has vastly different roles in their homeworlds, there is no chance that someone who has even been a few months away from their homeworld would have the same assumption for other races.

I didn't miss his point,  I just recognize that he's very wrong on the subject.

See,  the issue is that he's making a RPG,  and by virtue of that,  you're going to experience an alternate world.  That world is not going to be completely politically correct.  Mass Effect is a perfect example.  The Krogans are going to regard 120lb females as non-intimidating,  through the society Bioware itself established.  The Batarians are going to look at everyone as a potential slave,  this is what their society is. 

It's highly ironic that Bioware went to all the trouble to establish these decidedly negative sociological attributes of these races,  and then just do nothing with them,  because someone somewhere might be overly sensitive and offended.  It's even worse when you realize they had no problem handling these exact same situations in Dragon Age: Origins.  Which oddly enough,  sold better than ME and ME2.

Further,  realistically speaking,  Sexism and uncomfortable situations have existed for over 5,000 years or so.  Do you really think it's going to be solved in the next 150 years?  Seriously?  Especially since Bioware's established all kinds of backstory on Sexism(Several races),  Slavery(Batarians),  and Racism(Pretty much every race in ME complains about the others).  Never mind the existance of strip clubs on every world.  Ones that only feature women.

To be very blunt about it,  it's kind of hypocritical to put all of that into a game and then say "Oh no,  we can't use that,  we'll just reference it alot and pretend it isn't there in dialogue!".

So seriously,  it's just a weak excuse to have all of that sitting in the backstory but then claim you can't discuss it because someone "Might be uncomfortable".  If they were,  I'm pretty sure the strip clubs,  slavery,  and racism already turned them off.

As I said before,  Bioware's pretty much at the point where choosing a sex for your character is completely pointless,  there's no difference between the sexes,  DA2 had everyone Bisexual,  so really,  your character is effectively completely sexless.

Which is pushing things a whole lot more than adding in any Gender Differences.  I don't know about you,  but I find it pretty ridiculous that every man and woman are exactly the same in every way in 2180.

[Phaedon]

Yes, I do in fact, think that sexism will be mostly extinct within 2 centuries.

You could openly be racist 50 years ago, and although racism is not extinct, that's where it's heading to.

Turians, Humans - Advanced societies, sexism should be very uncommon.
Asari - *Cough*
Salarians - Same with the other races, if not the opposite, considering that it's a bit sexist for females to be having higher positions.
Krogan - The krogan can't possibly see much of a difference between humans. They are all weak for them. Plus, the female krogan are very independent and respectable.
Batarians- Unsure about those guys. Especially, since, most of the population is part of an Orwellian society.
Vorcha - We no like gender equality! WE LEAVE!

[Ghost Warrior]

There may not always be sexism but there will be at least small differences between genders,that's what I think. People will always see men and women at least slightly different. That doesn't have to mean they will be prejudiced,just that they will notice the difference and respond a little differently.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 30 mai 2011 - 07:01 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I'm compelled to agree with Gatt's latest post. Completely.

[Iakus]

But what humans might find sexist, aliens might find normal, or common sense.

I could totally see asari using female pronouns to refer to anyone, male or female, as an unconscious act. Because all asari are, for all practical purposes, female.

Humans 200 years form now obviously think nothing of women fighting side by side with men on the front  lines. A typical krogan, however would find the idea insane to risk fertile females that way.  Yeah he may understand on an intellectual level that humans are not in immediate risk of dying out due to a genophage that greatly limits their birth rates.  But after a thousand years, I'm sure certain ways of thinking set in.  Especially to krogan that don't leave Tuchanka.

We don't know how batarian society works exactly, except that it's a caste system and slavery is somehow an inextricable part of it.  But I'm sure men and women are treated differently somehow.

One thing that often gets forgotten in science fiction including extraterrestrials is that, good and evil aside, aliens are alien.  With different priorities, different biologies, different cultures and histories to shape their outlooks on everything.  Including gender.  This is a bit deeper than we're ever likely to get in a video game.  But I don't think a glimpse of that would be inappropriate.

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...

But what humans might find sexist, aliens might find normal, or common sense.

I could totally see asari using female pronouns to refer to anyone, male or female, as an unconscious act. Because all asari are, for all practical purposes, female.

Humans 200 years form now obviously think nothing of women fighting side by side with men on the front  lines. A typical krogan, however would find the idea insane to risk fertile females that way.  Yeah he may understand on an intellectual level that humans are not in immediate risk of dying out due to a genophage that greatly limits their birth rates.  But after a thousand years, I'm sure certain ways of thinking set in.  Especially to krogan that don't leave Tuchanka.

We don't know how batarian society works exactly, except that it's a caste system and slavery is somehow an inextricable part of it.  But I'm sure men and women are treated differently somehow.

One thing that often gets forgotten in science fiction including extraterrestrials is that, good and evil aside, aliens are alien.  With different priorities, different biologies, different cultures and histories to shape their outlooks on everything.  Including gender.  This is a bit deeper than we're ever likely to get in a video game.  But I don't think a glimpse of that would be inappropriate.

The example that I can see as valid there is the one with the krogan. And it won't make people uncomfortable either.

I, however, strongly disagree with the alien one.All of the Council (and their allied) races so far, are either known to have established equality, or haven't shown any different behavior till now. If they make a 180 degree turn, then that would be a retcon, mostly.

[wepeel_]

Phaedon wrote...

Not really.
Nobody comments on his nationality, and mentioning that he is fresh off the boat is not in a hostile tone.

He does get referred to as a slav several times, and even a slavic mother****er. It's not done in such a way as to be blatantly racist or overly hostile, but neither is it left out on account that someone from eastern Europe might play and not like the choice of words, and it does spice up the scenes. There doesn't have to be ku klux klan hoods and cross burning involved, just a bit of nuance here and there.

Phaedon wrote...
But why should they be in, in the first place?

Sexism in the future makes little sense anyway, and really, I don't see the point of risking it. Picking a gender, or another characteristic, such as haircolour, and skin colour, is a completely different thing from picking your origins.

And well, ME1/2 support various skin tones as well, right? Why not include some racism while you are at it? I don't see how it is any different. And yet, you would be uncomfortable with that, right?

It doesn't have to be in. My opinion is that things like this shouldn't be hammered in - but if the situation calls for it, neither should it be deliberately be written out. As it is now, such great care has been taken to always refer to Shepard in gender-neutral ways that it becomes obvious and repetitive to a point where it doesn't feel quite natural. It's not a huge issue, but more acknowledgement of Shepard's sex - as well as other variables like class, skin colour, hair colour and whatever else the game can track is fine too - would make it better. And to do so you can't constantly worry that everything you put in might at some point, somewhere, step on somebody's toes; and figure that maybe you should make it more neutral and politically correct instead.

Of course, just like developers shouldn't go out of their way to leave such things out, they shouldn't go out of their way to put them in. Having everyone make a comment about Shepard's sex or looks in some way would be even worse than having no one do it. It should be balanced, and the player should have the chance to stand up for him- or herself, as Shepard tends to be very capable of doing. When handled right, that just makes the game world come alive more, in my eyes.

I also don't see that sexism would necessarily be gone in the future. You have the Terra Firma party for instance - they may or may not be racist, they may or may not be sexist, but they are certainly species-oriented, so the principle that some beings are worth more than others is still just about the same. Humans will in all likelihood be petty even in the future, even if the stage has gotten bigger.

Modifié par wepeel_, 30 mai 2011 - 07:45 .

[Phaedon]

Oh, I see now.

I can agree with having different stuff for different genders if the situation calls for it, but not otherwise, as I said, I don't want them to be hammered in.

As for the use of "Slav" in GTA IV, don't you think that that was a bad move by R*?

I mean sure, it's not like 50% of the players are of Slavic decent like with female players, but still.

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 mai 2011 - 07:50 .

[Iakus]

Phaedon wrote...

The example that I can see as valid there is the one with the krogan. And it won't make people uncomfortable either.

I, however, strongly disagree with the alien one.All of the Council (and their allied) races so far, are either known to have established equality, or haven't shown any different behavior till now. If they make a 180 degree turn, then that would be a retcon, mostly.

The main Council races yes Asari, salarians, turians.  Also, we've seen and learned enough about the quarians to know they're pretty egalitarian.  But there are other races out there besides the batarians we know very little about compared to them:  elcor, hanar, perhaps the volus.  We haven't even met the raloi.  

Ironically, these races also appear to be the ones that are biologically very different from humans.

[Iakus]

wepeel_ wrote...

It doesn't have to be in. My opinion is that things like this shouldn't be hammered in - but if the situation calls for it, neither should it be deliberately be written out. As it is now, such great care has been taken to always refer to Shepard in gender-neutral ways that it becomes obvious and repetitive to a point where it doesn't feel quite natural. It's not a huge issue, but more acknowledgement of Shepard's sex - as well as other variables like class, skin colour, hair colour and whatever else the game can track is fine too - would make it better. And to do so you can't constantly worry that everything you put in might at some point, somewhere, step on somebody's toes; and figure that maybe you should make it more neutral and politically correct instead.

Of course, just like developers shouldn't go out of their way to leave such things out, they shouldn't go out of their way to put them in. Having everyone make a comment about Shepard's sex or looks in some way would be even worse than having no one do it. It should be balanced, and the player should have the chance to stand up for him- or herself, as Shepard tends to be very capable of doing. When handled right, that just makes the game world come alive more, in my eyes.

I also don't see that sexism would necessarily be gone in the future. You have the Terra Firma party for instance - they may or may not be racist, they may or may not be sexist, but they are certainly species-oriented, so the principle that some beings are worth more than others is still just about the same. Humans will in all likelihood be petty even in the future, even if the stage has gotten bigger.

Very well said!

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

The example that I can see as valid there is the one with the krogan. And it won't make people uncomfortable either.

I, however, strongly disagree with the alien one.All of the Council (and their allied) races so far, are either known to have established equality, or haven't shown any different behavior till now. If they make a 180 degree turn, then that would be a retcon, mostly.

The main Council races yes Asari, salarians, turians.  Also, we've seen and learned enough about the quarians to know they're pretty egalitarian.  But there are other races out there besides the batarians we know very little about compared to them:  elcor, hanar, perhaps the volus.  We haven't even met the raloi.  

Ironically, these races also appear to be the ones that are biologically very different from humans.

That was my point actually.
All those three races have never appeared to treat FemShep or ManShep differently so far. It won't be a retcon if some of them end up sexist, but it would appear weird.  Anyway, I want those to appear in rare moments, and only if we get the chance, not done have them pre-planned.  For both genders.

We seem to be forgetting the original argument;
Making people feel uncomfortable? As far as it doesn't have to do with sexism or stereotypes in general, I am fine with it ,btw.

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 mai 2011 - 08:09 .

[BickDutt]

Phaedon wrote...

Oh, I see now.

I can agree with having different stuff for different genders if the situation calls for it, but not otherwise, as I said, I don't want them to be hammered in.

As for the use of "Slav" in GTA IV, don't you think that that was a bad move by R*?

I mean sure, it's not like 50% of the players are of Slavic decent like with female players, but still.

Only 50% of women players are women? Damn, I should probably check next time I get a gamer girlfriend!

Joking asides, I highly doubt 50% of ME players are female, Phaedon. Regardless, I don't see why including very real and mature subjects such as sexism and racism should be a problem. The TV series "The Wire", which is regarded by many critics as the greatest series of the last 20 years, has very racially sensitive language. A great work of art doesn't bury its head in the sand in the face of those issues. Sci-Fi has always been about exploring the relation between technology and our humanity. I think the old adage stands, technology might have evolved but we're still the same old humans as were 50 000 years ago.

Of course, not every product has to be a great work of philosophy or activism, I don't think we'll remember Mass Effect as a great study on postmodernism.

[stuboy52]

i agree with the writers they shouldn't get draw into there opinion of what this gender would do in this instance or that instance becuase sterotypes will begin to occur which you cant have for a protagonist like shep because we all have an opinion on matters of gender.

[Gatt9]

Phaedon wrote...

Yes, I do in fact, think that sexism will be mostly extinct within 2 centuries.

You could openly be racist 50 years ago, and although racism is not extinct, that's where it's heading to.

Turians, Humans - Advanced societies, sexism should be very uncommon.
Asari - *Cough*
Salarians - Same with the other races, if not the opposite, considering that it's a bit sexist for females to be having higher positions.
Krogan - The krogan can't possibly see much of a difference between humans. They are all weak for them. Plus, the female krogan are very independent and respectable.
Batarians- Unsure about those guys. Especially, since, most of the population is part of an Orwellian society.
Vorcha - We no like gender equality! WE LEAVE!

You're still assigning your personal beliefs as cultural truths.

There are many societies on earth that are both as advanced as America and Sexist.  Nor is there any indication of that changing anytime soon.

Racism isn't extinct either.  Wars rage across the globe solely because of Race.

What you believe,  and what is real,  are two very different things.  Advanced society does not in any way,  shape,  or form,  imply a lack of sexism.  It's entirely possible to be extremely advanced and extremely sexist.

Which apparently Bioware believes to be true as we can tell from the fact that every planet has a strip club filled with female dancers,  and people of all races watching them.

[Siansonea]

I think most aliens should be gender-blind, with the exception that more aliens should be remarking how asari-like humans are, especially the females. Most aliens probably wouldn't see much difference between male and female humans, with the exception of maybe quarians. But turians and salarians are so markedly different themselves that human gender differences probably wouldn't register much. They'd see all of us as pink, tan and brown asari with hair instead of sculpted folds, and with some resembling young asari (i.e. flat-chested male humans) and some resembling older asari (large-busted female humans). Some two-gendered species might not even have separate pronouns for males and females in their own language.

Human NPCs are a different matter. Depending on the world view of the NPC, they should react differently to MaleShep than they do FemShep in certain circumstances. I don't advocate having EVERY human NPC respond differently to Shepard based on Shepard's gender, but some instances would be an interesting touch. For instance, if Captain Bailey's tone toward FemShep was more "fatherly" than it is for ManShep, that would kinda cool, some men his age would feel protective of a young woman, even if she is a decorated war hero. More people should flirt with Shepard depending on their sexuality and Shepard's gender (not too many people though). A few throwaway lines here and there. I don't think they have to be huge moments, but they add dimension to the game and reinforce Shepard as a person. So many times Shepard just seems like a big "blank" in a given scene. Shepard is remarkably passive from a social standpoint, but that's a separate issue.

I definitely don't think Shepard's personality should be dramatically different based on Shepard's own gender, after all, Shepard has a few innate differences already just based on Hale's and Meer's performances. I think Shepard's background, service history, in-game experiences and Paragon/Renegade focus define him/her more than gender.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 31 mai 2011 - 03:18 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Phaedon wrote...

That was my point actually.
All those
three races have never appeared to treat FemShep or ManShep differently
so far. It won't be a retcon if some of them end up sexist, but it would
appear weird.  Anyway, I want those to appear in rare moments, and only
if we get the chance, not done have them pre-planned.  For both
genders.

We seem to be forgetting the original argument;
Making people feel uncomfortable? As far as it doesn't have to do with sexism or stereotypes in general, I am fine with it ,btw.

I honestly don't see what your problem with gender-specific dialogue is, Phaedon.
Do you visualize femShep struggling to move a crate while maleShep
tosses it aside? A krogan belittling femShep for her tiny frame, but not
maleShep? FemShep getting her ass saved by the creaky-legged Joker,
while Joker gets his creaky ass saved by the heroic, masculine maleShep?
Is that your idea of gender acknowledgement?

And the
real issue in Patrick's article was about whether people would be put off by gender-specific situations, not necessarily by blatant sexism. For the record, I didn't think that Wrex's comment in ME1 about how he thought that fighting with female soldiers "gave the fight a different flavor" was sexist or misogynistic. Were female players really put off by this?

What if we ran into a cocktail waitress? For femSheps, she could mention how cool it is that the first human Spectre turned out to be a woman; for maleShep, she could just flirt with him. Honestly, I have a couple of good gamer friends who are women, and they've never complained about the way ME1 or ME2 acknowledged genders (except for the "skankwrap" dress Kasumi gives femSheps).

I think Patrick's overthinking what the fans want here... just be relatively sensitive about it, insert some gender-specific dialogue where appropriate (not everywhere, obviously), and move on, dude! Most people, male and female, tend to like it when NPCs react directly to their Shepard's actions or sex; gender is a very non-descriptive trait, yet it greatly adds to the experience. Harkin wasn't a sexist or misogynist; he was just an ass, and you had full control over how you dealt with him (try to ignore him, tell him off?). Moments like that, that are that personal to the main character, that are that up-close and direct, make the characters seem more real. It gives the character credence, reinforces an emotional connection... which is really what the character of Shepard should be about in ME3: not striving to be utterly PC for the sake of sparing some people's feelings, but creating and playing a character that feels as user-defined and personal to the player as possible.


EDIT: This post was written under the impression that people were arguing about whether to have ANY gender-specific dialogue outside of the romances. I'm definitely for the idea, obviously.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 31 mai 2011 - 03:27 .

[AlanC9]

Gatt9 wrote...

There are many societies on earth that are both as advanced as America and Sexist.  Nor is there any indication of that changing anytime soon.

Really? I look at the last century or so and I see plenty of change everywhere. Faster here than in most places, of course.

[100k]

Phaedon wrote...

Oh, I see now.

I can agree with having different stuff for different genders if the situation calls for it, but not otherwise, as I said, I don't want them to be hammered in.

As for the use of "Slav" in GTA IV, don't you think that that was a bad move by R*?

I mean sure, it's not like 50% of the players are of Slavic decent like with female players, but still.

Absolutely not. GTA IV is, in my opinion, the best single player experience of this generation, because of how fully realized the universe Liberty City exists in is. R* has always been the "herald" of what's acceptable in gaming, and GTA IV pushed that yet again. Add in the DLCs (which are crammed with racism, sexism, and politics), and you've got (in my opinion) the most realistic and interesting open world game ever created. Hell, I'd go as far as to say that, because of the size and scale of the DLCs, GTA IV wouldn't be a complete game without them. They. Are. Huge.

Niko is called a slav, slavic, ******, cabbage eating pr!ck, pollack (in a derrogatory mannor), and many other names that are meant to be racially insulting and socially unacceptable. 

Johnny constantly gets railed on for being Jewish, and to my knowledge, he is the ONLY Jewish gaming protagonist in gaming. Certainly the only one in recent history.

Luis gets it the worst. On top of being called a f@g (though he is straight), he also gets called a sp!c, mex, house maid, n!gger (his father is black, judging by the pictures on the walls of his mother's house), and an assortment of other names. 

Women in the GTA games often get insulted badly by the meaner male cast members in the games. GTA IV is not only no exception, but with the amount of words now "allowed" by R*, there really isn't any difference between the M rating, and an R rating for films. Some of the women get called cvnts, tw@s, wh*res, b!tches, etc etc etc. Exactly what I would expect from a real life situation, or a well made drama where a angry character curses as freely as they want.

Several of the black cast members talk about racism, gang wars, ghetto life, and drugs. 

Now, I am a minority (black), but I see these insults as adding a lot to the over all story. It's not just the insulters here, but the reactions of the insulted that make Liberty City superb. Niko, Johnny, and Luis basically shrug off all of the insults thrown at them. That's huge! They don't even react to these insults, because they are better than that.

But its not just the racial insults, sexual innuendo, and nationality rifts that make GTA IV so realized.

R* basically mocks the overall views of politics, commercialism, and the American lifestyle constantly...and yet it is NEVER shoved down the player's throat, or preached to a point where you can even feel a hint of distain for the writers. 

-Commercials that summarize our need for buying useless things, our love for watching celebrities and their uninteresting problems, and our obsession with the connectivity of today via the internet. All of these spoofs are thought provoking, because if you take a step back and look at the commericals on TV or the radio, there really isn't much of a difference. However, this is excellently balanced with the game's ability to be funny, and so comedy is what actually keeps the player listening to these ridiculous American requests, rather than depressing over it. On top of that, these commercials can be skipped!

-Politics are a huge part of GTA. From working for corrupt congressmen, to listening to political agendas, GTA IV practically nails their spoofs of the republican and democratic stereotypes which ironically are what most people actually believe in real life. Republicans in the games believe that Liberals are soft anti American terrorist sympathizers and godless hippies. Liberals see Republicans as crazed gun hoarders, bible thumpers, and egotistical loud mouths who spout their nationalism and faith to hide their sexual insecurities. These are hilarious stereotypes that may have some small grounds of fact, but it is just as much making fun of people who believe that these stereotypes make up the majority of the Right and Left party. And they can be skipped! But they're funny, so a player will listen to them anyways :-D

All of these real world elements, spoofs, and some times complete perversions make Liberty City into a incredible world! Its like walking through a city where everyone voices the side of themselves that they wouldn't normally want people to know about, on a daily basis.

R*'s willingness to accept sexism, racism, classism, nationalism, materialism,  commercialism, and politics, and make them into a story is ultimately GTA IV's greatest triumph, I'd say. In the end, GTA IV isn't about the Serbian immigrant who discovered that the price of freedom would be the woman he was going to love; the Jewish veteran biker who discovered that words like "brothers" and "loyalty" ultimately meant nothing without actions and intentions to back them; or the Hispanic club bouncer, who got to have a ridiculous amount of unadulterated fun, only to discovered that his boss was nuts. It's about Liberty City, and how all of the elements that make people (not just Americans) crazy can ultimately make or break even the strongest of people if they aren't careful.

And that's what I want for ME, and all other games. If ME3 folds to the idea that, because it is a game it shouldn't acknowledge that things like sexism exist, then it is undermining the value of player choice. ME3 will just be "a cool game", and not a potential for great thought, debate, and enlightenment.

Some pirate jerk in ME1 tells femShep that she should "convince me with your womanly assets" (or something like that). But I, as the player, have the choice to threaten him, kick his ass, or just ignore his reply. In the end, doesn't my reaction to that situation mean something in the long run outside of the game, assuming that I'm not speed running through the game, and am actually responding in a way that I've thought about? This response doesn't have to be to the effect that the game makes it, for example, if I kill that pirate, that doesn't mean I'd kill someone in real life for making fun of my gender, but it could mean that I stand a strong and often hostile stance against open sexism. 

I dunno, I'm just rambling now.

Modifié par 100k, 31 mai 2011 - 05:11 .

[Jebel Krong]

a few moments here or there doesn't really affect the game one way or another, but if there is going to be interest in that, why not more class-specific moments, too - those have even more personal impact for the player?

[Gatt9]

AlanC9 wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

There are many societies on earth that are both as advanced as America and Sexist.  Nor is there any indication of that changing anytime soon.

Really? I look at the last century or so and I see plenty of change everywhere. Faster here than in most places, of course.

-China still has a tendency to get rid of female babies if a male hasn't been born yet.
-Africa has roving rape gangs in many places.
-Many Japanese still expect women to be subservient.
-Many areas in the middle east require women to be subservient,  along with a great many other requirments upon them.
-The sex slave trade is staggering in scope.
-Women in America still make less than comparable men.
-Women still get harrassed in the workplace,  and it's so prevelant we still have laws to this day regarding it.  Laws that are so broad and encompassing that any given woman can have a man fired without a shred of real proof, "But he said this to me and I feel uncomfortable". (How about a team of lacrosse players who nearly had their lives destroyed and spent huge amounts of money because a drug-addled stripper saw her chance to make a fast buck that way?)
-10 minutes on a rap station shows an entire sub-culture isn't big on equal rights.
-Domestic violence isn't gone either.

Sexism is alive and well,  and not going anywhere anytime soon.  Honestly,  it only takes a few minutes with google to turn up a staggering number of examples of how "Not changed" things really are.

Which,  as I've said a few times before,  is pretty well evidenced by the fact that Bioware's rendered several strip bars into their Sci-fi game now.  Miranda's obscenely overstated attributes is another great example.  So seriously,  how are people claiming sexism is almost gone referencing a video game that prominently features strip bars and women with attributes that would give Barbie a complex?

Modifié par Gatt9, 31 mai 2011 - 11:30 .

[Ryzaki]

If they're gonna start that I'd rather they just leave it in ME where I don't play female anyway.

Don't really feel like being slapped in the face with crap I have to deal with everyday during my relaxing time. I'm well aware some people like that sort of thing but I personally don't.

I hate to be "that guy" but i this has to be in any other game I'd prefer a toggle. 

"Do you want gender-blindness? Y/N" Right at the title screen. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 mai 2011 - 12:01 .

[SalsaDMA]

"Do you wanna play "My little shepard"? Or do you want play "Commander Shepard, hardened Spec operative that saves the galaxy, wipes out a species or two, wins over a random love interest and fends off a race of ancient machines bent on galactic genocide while dealing with politcal machniations of several alien species at the same time... Before eating breakfast"?

This isn't a Pegi7 game, right? ME2 has an ESRB rating of 17+ Mature. The series isn't about kindergarten fairytale land... I find it a disturbing thing that things like this is even discussed in earnest. whatever happened to the ART of computer gaming? An oft used description of art is that "Art needs to provoke", yet people seem more and more afraid of touching anything that is even remotely provocative, despite the quite clear labeling of it being a MATURE franchise, indicating that people shouldn't expect kindergarten fairytale stuff...

[paptschik]

Gatt9 wrote...

Which,  as I've said a few times before,  is pretty well evidenced by the fact that Bioware's rendered several strip bars into their Sci-fi game now.  Miranda's obscenely overstated attributes is another great example.  So seriously,  how are people claiming sexism is almost gone referencing a video game that prominently features strip bars and women with attributes that would give Barbie a complex?

Wait...are you saying that attractive people and strippers are sexist?
I mean..I could see demanding more male strippers for equality, but really, is ALL stripping sexist against someone? Really?

[AlanC9]

Gatt9 wrote...


-China still has a tendency to get rid of female babies if a male hasn't been born yet.
-Africa has roving rape gangs in many places.
-Many Japanese still expect women to be subservient.
-Many areas in the middle east require women to be subservient,  along with a great many other requirments upon them.
-The sex slave trade is staggering in scope.
-Women in America still make less than comparable men.
-Women still get harrassed in the workplace,  and it's so prevelant we still have laws to this day regarding it.  Laws that are so broad and encompassing that any given woman can have a man fired without a shred of real proof, "But he said this to me and I feel uncomfortable". (How about a team of lacrosse players who nearly had their lives destroyed and spent huge amounts of money because a drug-addled stripper saw her chance to make a fast buck that way?)
-10 minutes on a rap station shows an entire sub-culture isn't big on equal rights.
-Domestic violence isn't gone either.

Sexism is alive and well,  and not going anywhere anytime soon.  Honestly,  it only takes a few minutes with google to turn up a staggering number of examples of how "Not changed" things really are.

I said that there was plenty of change, not that the change was finished. You're not actually making an argument against that.

[Guitar-Hero]

I think that anytime a player makes a decision they should feel that choice expressed in the world, after all if you make a choice and don't get validated for making it why bother making that choice at all? it loses it's purpose weather it'd be sex, which weapon you use or a climatic choice, the player should always feel the concequence of that choice in order to preserve immersion.