71 réponses à ce sujet

[Chiefsonny]

I've been playing this game for so long now, I Lost track of some of the story line.
I've been playing as a Lawful-Good person. Now I have to ask this.
Just went through the Betrayers Gate and it looks like I have to make a choice.
Attackers or Defenders?

Will either choice effect my Lawful/Good standing?

Thanks

[I_Raps]

I don't recall any alignment points after that one way or the other. What changes is who you fight at each stage.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

There's nothing particularly alignment-shifting on either route, it's more of a question of ideology. Does your character agree that the Wall of the Faithless is necessary? Or do they feel that nothing can justify the existance of such a horrific construct, not even the needs of the gods?

*********************************SPOILERS*********************************
From a gameplay perspective, you're either fighting the Betrayer's Crusade or Kelemvor's (sp?) forces. Kaelyn will not follow you if you forsake the Crusade, however, regardless of influence with her.
*******************************END SPOILERS******************************

[Giantevilhead]

The Wall is pretty much a necessary evil now. Without the Wall, the gods would lose the devotion of their believers. Basically, people would start worshiping to whichever god is convenient at the time. You need to make a business deal, worship Waukeen. You need to go on a long sea voyage, convert to Umberlee. The gods would lose much of the faith that sustains them and succumb to the whims of mortals. That's something many gods will not stand.

[Seagloom]

Actually, that still occurs. Residents of the Forgotten Realms pray to whichever goddess or god is most convenient for the action they are undertaking. You already noted apt examples. Only some clerics are diehard followers of a single deity, and refuse to propitiate others under any circumstances.

However, everyone does choose a favorite deity they feel most embodies their personal philosophy. That being becomes a person's patron deity. The Wall is a necessary evil, but it is not there to encourage singular worship of individual gods. Rather, it is to keep mortals worshiping gods at all.

Early in his reign, Kelemvor decided souls should be rewarded or punished based on their moral character in life. The result was that fewer people worshiped deities since the quality of their afterlife was determined by behavior instead. Since Ao decreed a deity's existence was fueled by worship following the Time of Troubles, Kelemvor's changes threatened their very existence. The other deities demanded he rescind his present stance or be determined unfit for godhood and striped of his power. Kelemvor quickly capitulated, and so the Wall was erected to essentially brow beat mortals into worship; lest their souls meet a fate worse than death.

Modifié par Seagloom, 12 juin 2011 - 03:53 .

[Giantevilhead]

Except the wall is not the only reason mortals worship the gods. People will continue to pray to the gods even if the wall was taken down since they still gain favors for their faith. That's precisely why people pray to different gods. They do it not because they're faithful to those gods but because they need something. However, because of the wall, they still need a patron deity to whom they are most devout in order to have an afterlife. Without the wall, people would have no reason to have a patron deity. The gods would lose their most devout worshipers. The gods would need to capitulate to the will of the mortals, and offer them greater favors and attention in exchange for their faith.

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 15 juin 2011 - 03:22 .

[Mysstic1]

While the wall is certainly evil, it is not ''necessary''. How deserving of worship are gods who threaten people with agony and oblivion for not worshipping? No, it's racket to maximize the faith the gods reap.

I can see why the evil gods would do this (they're evil), and why the neutral gods would go along with it (they're neutral, and it's in their own self-interest to do it), but no good god should support the existence of the wall. Maybe the good gods are outnumbered 2-1 by the evil and neutral gods, and that's why the wall stands, but no good gods should support it.

***Spoiler***

My only qualms about leading the Crusade when playing a good character was 1) I didn't feel comfortable jumping into bed with a host of evil, undead, and fallen creatures in order to attack a bunch of Kelemvor's virtuous paladins and helpless soul-pawns. And 2) It makes Kaelyn abandon the party, and I like Kaelyn.

Maybe there's some kind of compromise. Like, what if I agree to lead the Crusade, but then slaughter all the evil creatures on ''my'' side during the battles? Does anyone know if that would still cause Kaelyn to abandon the party, or if the game would detect that I'm secretly working against the evil elements of the Crusade from the inside?

[Giantevilhead]

Actually, the evil gods would benefit from the destruction of the wall since they're willing to do whatever is necessary to get people to worship them. As soon as people stopped worshiping evil gods, they'll marshal their champions for a crusade and punish anyone foolish enough to turn away from them. The good gods can't really force people to worship them.

[Mysstic1]

The wall is still to evil's benefit, because the existence of the wall and the forces of evil being able to coerce worship through terror are not mutually exclusive. Evil followers can still threaten and browbeat more worship, it's just that they can only do so within reasonable ''striking range'' of themselves. But the wall coerces worship from everyone, all the time, everywhere in Faerun.

The wall is a strong-arm tactic to solidify the power of the gods, and it's evil. I just wish I could think of a way for the PC to work against the wall without losing Kaelyn, and without siding with other evil creatures to do it.

[Seagloom]

Giantevilhead wrote...

Except the wall is not the only reason mortals worship the gods. People will continue to pray to the gods even if the wall was taken down since they still gain favors for their faith. That's precisely why people pray to different gods. They do it not because they're faithful to those gods but because they need something.

I never meant to imply it was the *only* reason. Yes, there are clerics that worship a god for their own gain. This is especially true of evil clerics that see playing a divine intermediary as a way to power. The type of person I was referring to are average folk. Peasantry and the like who are not particularly ambitious and are satisfied living out their mundane lives. Some of them might still propitiate a deity for a good crop or to survive a journey, but during the time there was no Wall, a staggering number did not. The drop in worshippers was great enough to incite a reaction among the other gods.

Mysstic1 wrote...

While the wall is certainly evil, it is not ''necessary''. How deserving of worship are gods who threaten people with agony and oblivion for not worshipping? No, it's racket to maximize the faith the gods reap.

I can see why the evil gods would do this (they're evil), and why the neutral gods would go along with it (they're neutral, and it's in their own self-interest to do it), but no good god should support the existence of the wall. Maybe the good gods are outnumbered 2-1 by the evil and neutral gods, and that's why the wall stands, but no good gods should support it.

Be that as it may, most of the Forgotten Realms' goodly gods chose self preservation over ethics. The good gods in the Realms are closer to our real world greek deities than infallible beings. Most of them care more about preserving their carefully wrought cosmic balance than doing the right thing. Promoting their portfolios comes first. Being good is secondary concern.

For a time, Midnight-Mystra stripped arcane magic from every evil mortal mage and deity because she did not wish to support evil beings. It was around that time Kelemvor enacted the reward and punishment system he was forced to abandon in lieu of the Wall. Despite their good intentions, both were deemed unfit by the gods. *All* the gods. They were accused of neglecting their duties. Mystra and Kelemvor's accusers ranged from evil gods to the likes of Sune, who is just about the most nonviolent good deity there is next to Eldath.

Ultimately, Mystra and Kelemvor sold out their ethical beliefs to remain deities. They both realized that the importance of their stations trumped any mortal sense of morality. It was at that point the pair discarded whatever shreds remained of their former humanity. The two of them might engage in minor acts of benevolence regularly, but when it comes to matters of cosmic order they fall in line like everyone else.

I agree that is not how a good character should act, but if one pores through FR lore they will find instances of good gods comitting morally dubious acts for the right, and occasionally wrong reasons. As portrayed, they are closer to humans with immense power than infallible embodiments of benevolence or malevolence. That is why I liken them to mythological greek deities. In fact, Ed Greenwood based a few on the greek gods.

All that said, I am not defending the Wall of the Faithless as anything less than vile. I am only explaining why it exists. Also consider there are other powers at work besides deities. Namely, fiends who also desire mortal souls. Some people would end up screwed after they died even if the Wall did come down.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 juin 2011 - 06:59 .

[Giantevilhead]

Seagloom wrote...

Giantevilhead wrote...

Except
the wall is not the only reason mortals worship the gods. People will
continue to pray to the gods even if the wall was taken down since they
still gain favors for their faith. That's precisely why people pray to
different gods. They do it not because they're faithful to those gods
but because they need something.

I never meant to imply
it was the *only* reason. Yes, there are clerics that worship a god for
their own gain. This is especially true of evil clerics that see playing
a divine intermediary as a way to power. The type of person I was
referring to are average folk. Peasantry and the like who are not
particularly ambitious and are satisfied living out their mundane lives.
Some of them might still propitiate a deity for a good crop or to
survive a journey, but during the time there was no Wall, a staggering
number did not. The drop in worshippers was great enough to incite a
reaction among the other gods.

Except the wall was built before the Avatar crisis when the gods didn't need worshipers and didn't give a crap about the faith of mortals.

Mysstic1 wrote...



The wall is still to evil's benefit,
because the existence of the wall and the forces of evil being able to
coerce worship through terror are not mutually exclusive. Evil
followers can still threaten and browbeat more worship, it's just that
they can only do so within reasonable ''striking range'' of themselves.
But the wall coerces worship from everyone, all the time, everywhere in
Faerun.



The wall is a strong-arm tactic to solidify the power of
the gods, and it's evil. I just wish I could think of a way for the PC
to work against the wall without losing Kaelyn, and without siding with
other evil creatures to do it.

The gods derive their power from the faith of their followers. Without the wall, a lot of good people would have no reason to worship good gods. People who worship evil gods on the other hand, will continue worshiping them either out of fear or in exchange for the powers they gain. The balance will tip in favor of the evil gods.

There's also the problem of disputes over the souls of the dead. As mentioned before, people will continue to pray to gods for favors even without the wall. However, without a patron deity, any gods who granted favors to a person may have some claim over their soul. So if someone prayed to Tymora, Tyr, Umberlee, Tempus, Chauntea, Ilmater, and Beshaba, and all these gods granted him favors, but the person has no patron deity, which god has claim over the person's soul?

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 18 juin 2011 - 07:05 .

[Seagloom]

Giantevilhead wrote...

Except the wall was built before the Avatar crisis when the gods didn't need worshipers and didn't give a crap about the faith of mortals.

According to "Mask of the Betrayer", which is not canon as far as I am aware. You are not wrong, but I think FR canon trumps what is mentioned in-game. Thus far every FR based RPG either alters or ignores lore to varying degrees. I like discussing these topics from a solid base; not one that is everchanging between CRPGs.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 juin 2011 - 07:34 .

[Giantevilhead]

Seagloom wrote...

Giantevilhead wrote...

Except the wall was built before the Avatar crisis when the gods didn't need worshipers and didn't give a crap about the faith of mortals.

According to "Mask of the Betrayer", which is not canon as far as I am aware. You are not wrong, but I think FR canon trumps what is mentioned in-game. Thus far every FR based RPG either alters or ignores lore to varying degrees. I like discussing these topics from a solid base; not one that is everchanging between CRPGs.

The point is that the since the gods didn't need worshipers when the wall was built, they weren't too concerned with the consequences of the wall. Now that they do need worshipers, having the wall torn down means that they would need to grant a lot more miracles and favors for their followers to keep them in the flock. Tearing down the wall does not mean the gods will lose their worshipers, it simply means that the gods will need to expend much more of their power to keep people worshiping them. As I mentioned before, evil gods are going to have a much easier time retaining their worshipers than good gods since they can do it through fear and oppression. That's going to tip the balance of power and turn Toril into Athas.

[Seagloom]

On that point I agree. Evil gods and fiends would have an easier time gaining a foothold under those circumstances. I do not think that alone would turn Toril into Athas, though. Magic is not as directly ruinous to the environment there.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 juin 2011 - 07:57 .

[Giantevilhead]

Considering how useful the spirit eater is to Myrkul, if the wall is torn down then more evil gods are going to create their own abominations to spread their influence.

[Seagloom]

I still disagree, but It is moot. The Wall of the Faithless is not coming down anytime soon. Maybe it will someday as an excuse to radically alter the setting again. For now, everyone on Toril has to suck it up and be faithful little followers.

[Mysstic1]

Sorry, I don't know how to quote previous responses. Giantevilhead wrote:

The gods derive their power from the faith of their followers. Without the wall, a lot of good people would have no reason to worship good gods.

I disagree. That's equivalent to saying that evil is stronger than good. While that may be your personal belief, I have the opposite view. I don't think that most people play nice with each other because there are laws, I believe that there are laws to play nice with each other because people are good.

Sure, evil can have an easier time of it in some way, by spreading misery and threats. But most people realize that only a few people gain that way, and most of the people lose... and they personally are far more likely to be in the losing camp. That's why societies throughout history have organized themselves in ways that promote the common good.

And thus the dance between good and evil continues: A few people screw others over for personal advantage, and get a lot of power out of it, and most people don't. The threat of evil people steamrolling over them is all the reason they need to turn to good gods for protection, they don't need a wall to coerce them to do it too.

[Giantevilhead]

Mysstic1 wrote...

Sorry, I don't know how to quote previous responses. Giantevilhead wrote:

The gods derive their power from the faith of their followers. Without the wall, a lot of good people would have no reason to worship good gods.

I disagree. That's equivalent to saying that evil is stronger than good. While that may be your personal belief, I have the opposite view. I don't think that most people play nice with each other because there are laws, I believe that there are laws to play nice with each other because people are good.

Sure, evil can have an easier time of it in some way, by spreading misery and threats. But most people realize that only a few people gain that way, and most of the people lose... and they personally are far more likely to be in the losing camp. That's why societies throughout history have organized themselves in ways that promote the common good.

And thus the dance between good and evil continues: A few people screw others over for personal advantage, and get a lot of power out of it, and most people don't. The threat of evil people steamrolling over them is all the reason they need to turn to good gods for protection, they don't need a wall to coerce them to do it too.

Except it's not the equivalent of saying that evil is stronger than good.

Things work differently in Toril. Evil civilizations that have the backing of a deity can maintain power indefinitely so long as no other deities or higher powers intervene. When worshipers of an evil god like Cyric or Bane causes pain and suffering, they actually give their gods power, which the gods can use to return favors for their followers in the form of artifacts, magic, demon/devil armies, etc. A society ruled by misery and pain can be maintained indefinitely because all that suffering feeds an evil deity, who then gives power to their champions to spread the suffering. The fact that people realize what's going on won't make any difference since any attempt at a rebellion would only cause more pain and suffering, which in turn makes the evil god even stronger. Not to mention the fact that commoners are no match for high level champions of evil and their extra planar allies. If worse comes to worse, evil deities can send down an avatar.

Seagloom wrote...

I still disagree, but It is moot. The
Wall of the Faithless is not coming down anytime soon. Maybe it will
someday as an excuse to radically alter the setting again. For now,
everyone on Toril has to suck it up and be faithful little followers.

Hasbro/WotC isn't creative enough to do that. They'll just have Mystra brought back and killed again like the last 3 times.

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 19 juin 2011 - 05:30 .

[Mysstic1]

That argument works equally well for the good gods, though. Every time someone resists evil or protects someone in a nation controlled by a good god, the good god gains power. An evil nation can remain entrenched in evil if the Wall came down, but good nations aren't at a particular disadvantage either. Their gods gain power when they resist encroachments by the evil nations.

[Mr Ordinary]

Seagloom wrote...

Early in his reign, Kelemvor decided souls should be rewarded or punished based on their moral character in life. The result was that fewer people worshiped deities since the quality of their afterlife was determined by behavior instead. Since Ao decreed a deity's existence was fueled by worship following the Time of Troubles, Kelemvor's changes threatened their very existence. The other deities demanded he rescind his present stance or be determined unfit for godhood and striped of his power. Kelemvor quickly capitulated, and so the Wall was erected to essentially brow beat mortals into worship; lest their souls meet a fate worse than death.

In the game, the Wall was actually built during Myrkul's reign (and by Myrkul), not during the reign of Kelemvor.

I see the Wall as another design by Myrkul to prevent his final dissolution. As long as the Wall exists, Myrkul will not be forgotten, and be feared. My game philosophy regarding the Wall, and the worship of the gods, is that the gods receive what worship they merit through their own actions - not through fear of having the soul consumed in the Wall. Thus my character rationalises the Wall is not only unnecessary, but evil and antagonistic to true worship.

Modifié par Mr Ordinary, 23 juin 2011 - 11:21 .

[Mysstic1]

***Spoiler***

Exactly. The moral dilemma the game puts forth, though, is that the game only provides a military option for opposing the Wall. Either side with evil to fight a hopeless battle against a god on his own home plane; or lose Kaelyn while defending the evil that is the Wall. I wish there was a middle path the game allowed. I can think of a few:

Side with the attackers, double-cross the evil elements of the army and get rid of them, fight your way to Kelemvor, get a difficult Diplomacy check to convince him to change the Wall, then disband the Crusade.
Or--
Refuse to lead the attackers, get attacked in retaliation by them, kick their butts, get an audience with Kelemvor for lending your assistance, then get a Diplomacy check with Kelemvor to change the Wall.

Either one would be better in my mind.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Mysstic1 wrote...

***Spoiler***

Exactly. The moral dilemma the game puts forth, though, is that the game only provides a military option for opposing the Wall. Either side with evil to fight a hopeless battle against a god on his own home plane; or lose Kaelyn while defending the evil that is the Wall. I wish there was a middle path the game allowed. I can think of a few:

Side with the attackers, double-cross the evil elements of the army and get rid of them, fight your way to Kelemvor, get a difficult Diplomacy check to convince him to change the Wall, then disband the Crusade.
Or--
Refuse to lead the attackers, get attacked in retaliation by them, kick their butts, get an audience with Kelemvor for lending your assistance, then get a Diplomacy check with Kelemvor to change the Wall.

Either one would be better in my mind.

***Still Spoilers***

To an extent, you can do the first - you can destroy the book the demi-lich desires and prevent his ascention. You can't betray the dragon, however.

Now this one I can't be certain of as I don't remember the source, but I believe the writers wanted to make bringing down the Wall an option - but were told that they couldn't change the setting so drastically. Not to mention, there is no feasible way to do it in-game.

You can't bring it down by force. I don't care how epic your character is, they aren't a match for a god on his home plane. And even if you could persuade Kelemvor that the Wall needs to come down, he already tried that once. And he was forced to restore it.

[Mysstic1]

I remember some synopsis of an interview with the developers. They said they weren't aware of the huge changes coming down the pipeline due to 4.0, but if they had been they'd have pressed more strongly for permission to alter the status quo by letting the player bring down the Wall. Too bad that didn't happen.

What the Wall needs to bring it down is not a military campaign (which is completely hopeless), but a publicity campaign. Belief shapes reality in Faerun. Convince enough mortals that the Wall is wrong, and the weight of their belief will affect reality such that it would bend the gods to capitulate.

Unfortunately ad campaigns don't make for very exciting storytelling. It would have been a nice epilogue to tag on, though, for a character who managed to make a Diplomacy check on Kelemvor. Have some blurb about how they went on to convince people of the evils of the wall and eventually the gods had to cave on the issue.

[Giantevilhead]

Mysstic1 wrote...

That argument works equally well for the good gods, though. Every time someone resists evil or protects someone in a nation controlled by a good god, the good god gains power. An evil nation can remain entrenched in evil if the Wall came down, but good nations aren't at a particular disadvantage either. Their gods gain power when they resist encroachments by the evil nations.

No it doesn't. Gods require faith and actions attributed to them to gain power. That means good gods aren't going to get anything from good people who do good things just because they're nice. Without the wall, there are going to be more and more good people doing good for the sake of good rather than in the name of a good god. That won't happen with evil gods since they'll just force their followers devote all their evil deeds to them.

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 17 juillet 2011 - 07:26 .

[Mysstic1]

I don't think that's a correct distinction. You say that good deeds that aren't done specifically in order to attribute it to a good god "don't count"? Well, that would apply even moreso to evil. How many evil people out there are doing evil deeds solely because it's to the advantage of some evil deity out there, instead of because it's advantageous for they, themselves?

No, disregarding a minority of religious fanatics, most evil people do evil things because of what's in it for them. If you're going to indict the forces of good for being altruistic, you have to indict the forces of evil for being selfish.

Either both sides only empower their gods due to followers doing things primarily for the sake of the gods... in which case there's only a small minority of empowering faithful on either side... or both sides empower their gods when they do things for their own personal reasons, but pay "lip service" to the relevant deities. In the latter case, there are plenty of followers empowering both sides, they're just doing it for their own reasons. Either way, there's no distinctive advantage for either side.

You should read through the Powers of Faerun sourcebook sometime if you have access to it. It delves into the philosophical and metaphysical underpinnings of the relationship between faithful believers and godly beings. It's a fascinating, mutually interdependent state of being. The gods aren't the "boss" of the mortals as much as they think, or as much as they want mortals to think, anyway. It's definitely a two-way street. Just ask Lathander, who's well on his way to transforming into Amaunator, about how much influence mortal belief has over the gods.