71 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaldor Silverwand]

NoirAuteur,

I don't find the Judeo-Christian God to be an absentee landlord at all. Get thee to a nunnery!

[The Fred]

NoirAuteur wrote...
Umm, wow. I wasn't raging against anything except the poor writing in the game.

You also entirely missed the point. So, get over yourself and your self-righteous indignation.

This is a game forum so I'd rather not dwell on it but when you start talking about real-world religions you have to be a little bit careful. Possibly you are getting confused with Deism which is (more or less, in simplified speak) the belief that the world was created by some greater being (i.e. God) but that said being does not generally intervene in the world, an idea which is nice because it doesn't clash with science etc at all.

However, classical Judaism and Christianity are very much not this. Pretty much the whole point of them is that God is not impersonal or "absent" - the cornerstone of Judaism is that God talked to Abraham, and the cornerstone of Christianity is Jesus was the Messiah.

Obviously this was pretty irrelevant to your point and I'm sure you just made an honest mistake there, but whilst Dorateen may have taken it the wrong way he's right in saying that your statement was ignorant and could easily offend people. You should also consider the fact that he may have been offended by it. That doesn't mean anyone missed the point of what you were trying to say - but that point was in turn irrelevant to his point, which was that what you said was somewhat ill-informed.

Now personally I think what you said was just wrong, but I'm not going to assume you meant it offensively or anything. As such I'd rather not start a big arguement, I'm just warning everyone that if discussions at to touch on real-world religions at all, people should keep things objective and overall be careful about what they say. I think discussion about these sorts of things are great but this really isn't the place for them, and the last thing we want it to spoil and interesting discussion about the game with arguements which could very easily end in offense and abuse. Thanks.

Modifié par The Fred, 13 décembre 2011 - 11:26 .

[M. Rieder]

Ao would not be pleased by the turn in this discussion thread...

[NoirAuteur]

For ****'s sake. Is anybody going to bother addressing my actual point about the Wall of the Faithless, or are you all just going to fixate on my quick-and-dirty description of a deity that does not hand people magical potions to cleanse blighted forests (for the past two thousand years, anyway)?

[Kaldor Silverwand]

NoirAuteur wrote...

For ****'s sake. Is anybody going to bother addressing my actual point about the Wall of the Faithless, or are you all just going to fixate on my quick-and-dirty description of a deity that does not hand people magical potions to cleanse blighted forests (for the past two thousand years, anyway)?

You should have just stopped after "Wall of the Faithless".

[Axe_Edge]

Dorateen wrote...

+1

Agreeing with Dorateen, I still like to think NoirAuteur make an honest mistake and didn't mean to offend.

NoirAuteur wrote...

we're talking about
deities that take a direct hand in the lives of mortals.

I had to smile after reading this portion.  Not because of the sentence, but because it made me think of "Clash of the Titans" (1981).  The gods using statues of man and beast on a chessboard.  Unapologetically hilariously awesome movie.

Also, although an assassin may desire the favor of Cyric to help their performance, their main god may have nothing remotely to do thier craft.  I think even good gods concede there are times they need to utilize assassins.  Sending a Paladin to slay an evil dragon isn't what I'm talking about.  A good god sends an assassin to surgically remove and individual entity for the greater good, then, the good god says, "I don't know what you're talking about".

(Hmmm.  Having mentioned a dragon slayer, now I'm reminded of when I saw "DragonSlayer" (also 1981))

Modifié par Axe_Edge, 14 décembre 2011 - 12:56 .

[kamal_]

NoirAuteur wrote...

By the by, Raistlin Majere's ECL when he challenged Takhisis was 28, so there's really no reason the PC, by the end of  "Mask..." couldn't at least give Kelemvor a respectable go of it, but for plot armor.

A: plot armor is the only reason Raistline gets a go of it.
B: that's a different pantheon, and CL 28 may be sufficient there, but not elsewhere.

[The Fred]

NoirAuteur wrote...

For ****'s sake. Is anybody going to bother addressing my actual point about the Wall of the Faithless, or are you all just going to fixate on my quick-and-dirty description of a deity that does not hand people magical potions to cleanse blighted forests (for the past two thousand years, anyway)?

The point is that warning you not to get into one of these discussions is kind of more important than responding to your point, because if people get all worked up you'll just end up with a row which results in a thread lock-down, which in turn means nobody will *ever* respond to your point.

So, let's instead assume that you actually wrote something like:

OK, I get it, I'm sorry, I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about that when I wrote it, but hey, let's move on. Anyway, the Wall of the Faithless. What did you guys think about it?

In which case I would say I agree, at least to an extent, that it sounds as though there was a bit of a cop-out when it came to choice. I personally would be tempted to let the PCs try to fight Kelemvor, and just deck them repeatedly until they realised that there wasn't a way to win. That's OK, because at least they could try. It's a good way to end the game ("got killed by Kelemvor trying to break down the Wall"). As it is, simply not giving people sufficient convo options is a bit lame. That said, I can kind of see why they did it.

Modifié par The Fred, 14 décembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[NoirAuteur]

Take your snotty, hypocritical self-righteousness and shove it, The Fred.

Modifié par NoirAuteur, 14 décembre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Strike 3

[Dann-J]

I think the main reason the Wall of the Faithless can't be removed is because it would involve one god tampering with the affairs of another (even though the second god is now dead). That could set a dangerous precedent amongst the gods, opening the flood gates for any god to attempt to undo an edict passed down by another that they didn't personally agree with.

[NoirAuteur]

DannJ wrote...

I think the main reason the Wall of the Faithless can't be removed is because it would involve one god tampering with the affairs of another (even though the second god is now dead). That could set a dangerous precedent amongst the gods, opening the flood gates for any god to attempt to undo an edict passed down by another that they didn't personally agree with.

 Not really, since Kelemvor inherited the domain of Death from Cyric, who inherited it from Myrkul, and the Wall falls within that domain. Kelemvor could undo it if he wished, but that would supposedly make the other gods unhappy, not because of precedent, but because supposedly mortals only have faith in the FR pantheon out of fear of the Wall.

 You would be correct if, say, Sune came in and tried to undo the Wall, because it is well outside her portfolio, but a god like Ilmater or Loviatar could arguably have a say in the Wall's ultimate fate, since their portfolios include "suffering".

[Louisdeer]

NoirAuteur wrote...

I don't buy that mortals would turn away from the gods if the Wall didn't exist. We're not talking about absentee landlords like the Judeo-Christian God, we're talking about deities that take a direct hand in the lives of mortals.

I don't know the FR deities that well, but a farmer would still pray to Chauntea (I think?) pretty regularly for a good crop, just as an assassin would ask Cyric (is he still around?) for favor, and the like.

In other words, nothing would change.

By the by, Raistlin Majere's ECL when he challenged Takhisis was 28, so there's really no reason the PC, by the end of  "Mask..." couldn't at least give Kelemvor a respectable go of it, but for plot armor.

At any rate, building up the Betrayer's Crusade and the idea that the PC is going to have to make a choice regarding the Wall, only to have Kelemvor go "LOL no" at the end is, quite honestly, terrible writing. I don't care whose fault it is - WotC, or Obsidian, or both.

edit: And the prospect of going a few rounds with a god is the only thing that really felt at all "epic" about this supposedly epic campaign. Without that, it just feels like a regular adventure with really overpowered gnolls. Oh, I suppose the chat with Myrkul on the Astral Plane hovered on the edge of epic.

Defending Crossroad Keep felt more epic than anything in MotB. But I digress.

I Suppose this is you original ideas.

I am not here to talk about how wrong the way you address your ideas.(it is totally aaceptable for me, but for others.....You probbly want to write in a college level writting for them...which means a lot works.)

Anyway,

because the arguement is start to getting mess.

I collect your MAIN ideas and organize(some minor change) it as below:

1. MOST Mortals would not turn away from God if the wall never exist.

from
"I don't buy that mortals would turn away from the gods if the Wall didn't exist." and farmer example ...

2. ABSOLUTLY No Impact would happen if the wall is pushed down.

from "in another word".(personally i feel these two ideas have some difference, so i seperated them)

3. The current idea of "a story is epic because it involved God" is NOT legit.

from "....nds with a god is the only thing that really felt at all "epic" about this supposedly epic campaign....."

Well if you agree i got all of them, then please allow me throw my opinion to it. PLEease Q_Q?

Just say "Yes":wizard:

[Dann-J]

NoirAuteur wrote...

DannJ wrote...

I think the main reason the Wall of the Faithless can't be removed is because it would involve one god tampering with the affairs of another (even though the second god is now dead). That could set a dangerous precedent amongst the gods, opening the flood gates for any god to attempt to undo an edict passed down by another that they didn't personally agree with.

 Not really, since Kelemvor inherited the domain of Death from Cyric, who inherited it from Myrkul, and the Wall falls within that domain. Kelemvor could undo it if he wished, but that would supposedly make the other gods unhappy, not because of precedent, but because supposedly mortals only have faith in the FR pantheon out of fear of the Wall.

That may have been the case before the Time of Troubles, but since then Ao has decreed that a god's power is now dependant on the faith of their worshipers. Fear generally doesn't breed high-quality faith.

Shortly after Kelemvor and Midnight (Mystra) became gods, they tended to run their portfolios according to the morals they held as mortals. Midnight denied access to the weave to evil magicians, forcing the other gods to have to take a more direct role in Faerun. Tempus, for instance, started resurrecting fallen warriors on the battle field to compensate for the one-sided battles between good and evil armies. Kelemvor was a fighter while alive, so he started rewarding anyone who died a heroic death, even sparing them from the Wall of the Faithless if that was where they were headed. This lead to warriors virtually committing suicide by rushing into unwinnable situations, because they knew they would be rewarded for it (especially if they were faithless).

Kelemvor might have considered removing the wall back then, but since he and the new Mystra were chastised for not being true to their portfolios, they have had to abandon their moral stances they held as mortals (or risk being un-deified). Kelemvor is now considered to have no alignment at all, and simply tows the God of Death line without any moral considerations. Therefore he has no motivation to do anything about the Wall.

Modifié par DannJ, 14 décembre 2011 - 09:38 .

[NoirAuteur]

DannJ wrote...
Fear generally doesn't breed high-quality faith.

 That's sort-of been my point. The storyline to MotB essentially assumes that mortals worship the FR pantheon out of fear of going to the Wall, and ignores that there are tangible rewards to worshipping them, many of which serve as proof of their existence. It's a carrot-and-stick scenario, and the game's story ignores the carrot.

 It also totally ignores that there's a wide divide between just oblivion for the Faithless, and years (perhaps centuries) of what amounts to Ultimate Suffering, followed by oblivion, for the Faithless. Mortals fear their own mortality, and oblivion, and most would opt for frolicking with unicorns with Mielikki, or whatever, for eternity over oblivion anyway.

 So the whole "mortals turned away from the gods because I was too nice" argument Kelemvor makes at the end just isn't believable.

DannJ wrote...
This lead to warriors virtually committing suicide by rushing into
unwinnable situations, because they knew they would be rewarded for it
(especially if they were faithless).

 That in and of itself is an act of faith, though, akin to a Viking's desire to die in battle because such would grant him a seat in Valhalla.

Louisdeer, I think you have it more-or-less correct.

edit: Oh, one last thing. The whole point of making a deity's existence dependent upon the faith of mortals was to replace the Master-Slave relationship that existed previously with something more symbiotic. Deities that mortals found worthy of worship, because those deities did not ignore their followers, would continue to exist; those that ignored their followers would perish.

The Wall of the Faithless completely undoes that by effectively removing the option to not worship any deity. Even if the pantheon ignored every mortal plea or plight, they would continue to exist because most mortals are going to believe that worshipping absent gods is better than an afterlife of torment and oblivion.

 
 

Modifié par NoirAuteur, 15 décembre 2011 - 02:14 .

[Louisdeer]

To Noir:

Still, as a player I'd say i want as much as possible options are open, even though i wont choose some of it at all.

Therefore, your solution of undoing the wall by removing the option to not worship any deity probably fit most of people. However, not everyone of us.

People like to take the best deals, but take away all other deals will ruin the "best" part of the deal.


I think it is not that hard to explain the wall.

In game world, the livings don't have a solution yet. The fact doesn't mean there will never be a solution.

Either the wall is a temporary balance point of power of faith, or the wall is completely a mistake, is Untold. That is what make us argue and have fun with.

Or..........

Anyway, in my opinion, we shall have an agreement on this discussion:

Only two things may ruin the fun :

1 Designers said "Sorry the wall is unremovable forever"
2 Deities' decision = nature law

Both of the explanation will leave no place for discussions.

Therefore, we shall ignore those. Agree?

Modifié par Louisdeer, 16 décembre 2011 - 01:57 .

[Bayz]

Why people keep comparing RL religion with FR religion?

If both were the same we would have Jesus clad in armor with a sword fighting <insert religion here> and surrounded by their followers.

I mean seriously they are not the same, stop it.

On other account, destroying the wall has the problem that the souls of the faithless that die will end up wandering around the planes and probably been taken by demons\\fiend to make more demons\\fiends so you are actually not helping just screwing the cosmology all over.

Kelemvor (being a former mortal himself) once decided that he would claim the souls of the faithless for himself as a way to make them avoid the wall and it was a major uproar for all the Gods as it would mean he will be getting in the long run more power than them (which actually wasn't his first intention) so it is a complex matter.

Faerûn's cosmology is the way it is for a reason that makes sense in game context.

[Mr Ordinary]

Bayz wrote...

Kelemvor (being a former mortal himself) once decided that he would claim the souls of the faithless for himself as a way to make them avoid the wall and it was a major uproar for all the Gods as it would mean he will be getting in the long run more power than them (which actually wasn't his first intention) so it is a complex matter.

That would only make sense if it was not the fact of the worship of a follower that granted the god their power, but the power of a god was decided by the gathering of the souls?

If Kelemvor was not worshipped by the Faithless (and he couldn't be,  if they remained Faithless), then he shouldn't accure any power from them, even if he "accepted their souls".

This suggests it is the function of the gathering of souls which grant power - irrespective of which god they worship. And that does not agree with canon.

[Louisdeer]

Bayz wrote...

Why people keep comparing RL religion with FR religion?

If both were the same we would have Jesus clad in armor with a sword fighting <insert religion here> and surrounded by their followers.

I mean seriously they are not the same, stop it.

On other account, destroying the wall has the problem that the souls of the faithless that die will end up wandering around the planes and probably been taken by demonsfiend to make more demonsfiends so you are actually not helping just screwing the cosmology all over.

Kelemvor (being a former mortal himself) once decided that he would claim the souls of the faithless for himself as a way to make them avoid the wall and it was a major uproar for all the Gods as it would mean he will be getting in the long run more power than them (which actually wasn't his first intention) so it is a complex matter.

Faerûn's cosmology is the way it is for a reason that makes sense in game context.

Actually, i do not think anyone here meant to discuss RL & FR religions. As you noted, those alternative  discussion is totally a mess.

if you want to stop it, stop making a point on such topic would be better.

However, Did Kelemvor said he would claim the faithless and such and such?

Well, i guess i missed this part of game or some,

But this fact would fit my earlier theory perfectly!!!!!!!!! Damn thank you Bayz

Kelemvor wont do it because other gods wont allowed a superior God emerge!

This Fact would prove the wall is a form of agreement between god.

As a conclusion, this Wall is a symble of the weakness of all gods. All gods should be ashamed to such a fact.

The mortals shall destroy it for a greater cause.

Now i say i have a solid evidence to say this wall is just a temperory balance. It shall fall apart soon or later.

[Zaxares]

Bayz wrote...
On other account, destroying the wall has the problem that the souls of the faithless that die will end up wandering around the planes and probably been taken by demonsfiend to make more demonsfiends so you are actually not helping just screwing the cosmology all over.

This already happens even with the Wall in place, I believe. When mortals in the Forgotten Realms die, their souls travel to the Fugue Plane where they await their deities to come and take them to their respective realms for their afterlife. During this time, by special compact with Kelemvor, fiends (especially devils from the Nine Hells) are allowed to travel among these souls to try and gain recruits for the Blood War. The devils cannot force, trick or coerce the souls into going with them, but they can and do inform the souls that they are dead and that (for souls that worshipped evil deities or are Faithless) horrific torments await them. They can then entice the souls to sign a Pact that binds them to the Nine Hells and essentially makes them "worship" an Archdevil. The devils then take these souls back to the Nine Hells for torture (what did you expect? They're DEVILS) and eventual reincarnation into a devil form.

So, there IS a last avenue of escape for souls condemned to the Wall of the Faithless, if not a particularly pleasant one.

[Seagloom]

Zaxares wrote...

When mortals in the Forgotten Realms die, their souls travel to the Fugue Plane where they await their deities to come and take them to their respective realms for their afterlife. During this time, by special compact with Kelemvor, fiends (especially devils from the Nine Hells) are allowed to travel among these souls to try and gain recruits for the Blood War.

That does not apply to the Faithless and the False. Those souls are compelled to enter the City of Judgment where their ultimate fate is decided by Kelemvor. There is no get out of jail card. No deals with devils. No ressurection via anything short of a timely Wish or Miracle spell. No hope.

[Zaxares]

Seagloom wrote...
That does not apply to the Faithless and the False. Those souls are compelled to enter the City of Judgment where their ultimate fate is decided by Kelemvor. There is no get out of jail card. No deals with devils. No ressurection via anything short of a timely Wish or Miracle spell. No hope.

Hmm, you're right. I just re-read the section in question from the Fiendish Codex II. It doesn't mention anywhere that the Faithless or the False are also valid targets for the devils. My mistake.