Aller au contenu

Photo

Darkspawn, we ask you to change to your old look. You are too cuddly now.


933 réponses à ce sujet

#451
Riknas

Riknas
  • Members
  • 478 messages

Kilshrek wrote...
I've said this before as well, if the darkspawn in DAO are indeed generic, show us how and why. I am here to be proven wrong.


If you really want, we can go back and forth just trading insults why the other idea is stupid. I can't help it if you simply don't like the response, but simply note the pictures of your preffered darkspawn. Hurlocks and genlocks mirror almost perfectly Orcs and goblins. Part of this is to go away from that, and adopt its own style.

The older Darkspawn were rooted in simply being dirty and dark skinned, thickly plated armor which is all the weirder for a group that apparently has next to no crafting skills. Also, let's remember how the darkspawn disease corrupts the bodies of others, like Ruck in the Deep Roads, he was hunch-backed, and his arm movements were crippled; he didn't appear to be capable of letting them rest at his side. Ghouls limped about, why did all the darkspawn stand up right (except the Shrieks, which was the only logically made Darkspawn, and works well with the tweak to the elves)?

I can't say I know what the Remix versions look like, or even the updated Legends versions because I haven't played Legends in ages...


Yes, well, I'm sorry you haven't paid attention but I can not help you with that. Ultimately, there has been more variation so that they do not all look the same.

Quite true about the dwarves, but there were genlock emmisaries in DAO. And Sandal seems to be gibbering about something to do with magic and possibly dwarves. There is more to the world than we the players know, to be sure.


Sandal's single gibbering is sort of irrelevant to the situation, at this very moment, the darkspawn are rooted in conventional dwarves, who can not perform magic. This is one of the few retcons that has not been outright mentioned. Simply put though, genlock emissaries don't make any sense, as I've already explained from a genetic standpoint. Whiel they WERE there, they have been removed to better accomodate the science. 

The new genlocks are far more intimidating and monstrous, instead of genlocks simply looking like goblins, they seem like a legitimate danger of their own, resembling beasts more, and less humanoid.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a closing note, I'll present why I actually think the new darkspawn look better. 

First of all, why wouldn't magic change them? We've already seen how absurd the broodmothers turn, and we don't even know how, we don't know if the magic is being born through the broodmother or the "Child" itself.

That said, moving to the main hurlocks, look at them closely. Pearly white teeth? I'll admit it's a bit odd, but notice how they have a distinct lack of gums (you know, for our teeth) and lips, making their mouths seem very unnatural and threatening. Next, look at their eyes, and how a black stain seems to go down from them, suggesting the taint. Their skin is pale and distorted, better reflecting the underground nature they have.

Also, their armor is much less uniform and more haggard looking, being pieces of jagged metal which is better reflective of what they are supposed to be, monsters. Again, my idea of adding more armor is to make it seem less like a definitive uniform, which is how it can come across with so few different models. Their animations are better depicitons of how living beings are affected by the taint: crippled, unnatural motions. They are perversions, broken living things driven by the song of the Arch Demon, not a will of their own.

#452
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 988 messages
Hurlocks in Origins were already pale.


And how does moving like a monkey make them better incarnations? The taint doesn't affect them and their movements in Origins because they essentially ARE the taint, and are immune to it.

#453
Tirfan

Tirfan
  • Members
  • 521 messages
I just can't see anything tainted in the new darkspawn, they just look ridiculous and all the hurlocks looked the same. DA:O they looked threatening.

I just put genlock emissaries being able to use magic as a effect of the taint, Avernus' experiment notes tell us that there is some weird powers in the taint - and I think there was a codex entry somewhere suggesting the taint being the reason some genlocks can use magic.

The darkspawn redesign was the worst - I can live with the new elves even if I don't like them, Qunari looked good, even though I wished the Stens would have had nipple piercings (to emphasize more that they are manly men, and tough and all that, and come on, even the Arishok had ear piercings.) I just can't see the new Darkspawn being any sort of threat, unless their main tactic is to make everyone laugh at them.

#454
Riknas

Riknas
  • Members
  • 478 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hurlocks in Origins were already pale.


And how does moving like a monkey make them better incarnations? The taint doesn't affect them and their movements in Origins because they essentially ARE the taint, and are immune to it.


Essentially? Keep in mind, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, every single darkspawn we've seen are specifically corruptions of already living things.

Furthermore, if the original hulrocks were already pale, it just goes to show this was a vast improvement because we got rid of the obnoxious amount of dirt that obscured the simply orcish skin. Though, perhaps I'm too aggressive in saying that.

It's "better" because it reflects the affects of the taints far better, and helps draw comparisons to the people surviving the consumption of darkspawn flesh, the darkspawn sickness, and the ghouls. I'm sorry if you don't understand that. This is ultimately a matter of taste. This is why I like it more, though I can respect and understand why people like the first kind as well.

That said, if people simply can't understand the move Bioware made at all, or simply dismiss explanations entirely, it seems that you just don't want to understand, and would merely prefer to have it your way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: As evidenced by Tirfan, it seems that it is the latter, with the brilliant retort of "it's stupid."

Modifié par Riknas, 10 juin 2011 - 11:22 .


#455
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 988 messages
Darkspawn aren't corruptions of anything. They're another race that look like a twisted form of a certain race.

And why shouldn't Hurlocks have dirt all over them? They live in the Deep Roads! That was another poster's argument for why they should've been pale, which they already were! See here:


Posted Image




Posted Image




I just find the new incarnations to be laughable. Ah well, agree to disagree.

#456
Riknas

Riknas
  • Members
  • 478 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Darkspawn aren't corruptions of anything. They're another race that look like a twisted form of a certain race.


Inaccurate.

Note the codex if you aren't aware, darkspawn are the results of broodmothers, which were previously females of the other races (Qunari, Elves, Humans, Dwarves, so far), forced to consume darkspawn flesh, which were the results of darkspawn, which were the results of brood mothers, which were previousy fema- etc, etc, etc. The only question we have is where did it ALL start, but everything we've seen up to this point is from corrupted mortal races.

Honestly, looking at the second screenshot I do not particularly see pale, just decrepit skin, more "dead" than white or pale. Ultimately though, Darkspawn are living...and thus...not dead, so the vaguely pock-marked skin and peeling factor doesn't make a whole of sense, it's too zombie-like.

Modifié par Riknas, 10 juin 2011 - 11:31 .


#457
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 988 messages
yes broodmothers are corruptions of a race. That does not mean Darkspawn are.


as for what you're seeing if you meant the red marks, those are tattoos. The codex entry for Hurlocks says that they mark themselves with tattoos. IIRC it says they do so in a gruesome fashion.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juin 2011 - 11:38 .


#458
Riknas

Riknas
  • Members
  • 478 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

yes broodmothers are corruptions of a race. That does not mean Darkspawn are.


as for what you're seeing if you meant the red marks, those are tattoos. The codex entry for Hurlocks says that they mark themselves with tattoos. IIRC it says they do so in a gruesome fashion.


The only darkspawn we've seen are deviations of corrupted races, though I suppose now that we've gotten to the bottom of this debate (the darkspawn being separate or deviations).  The only known origin story for them suggests they actually came from the human magisters, which I suppose conveniently supports my argument, though I suppose we both know that the credibility of that claim is...lacking.

Until a dev tells us otherwise now though, the rest is speculation....

#459
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 988 messages
We know that the dwarves were the first to encounter the Darkspawn.

#460
Riknas

Riknas
  • Members
  • 478 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We know that the dwarves were the first to encounter the Darkspawn.


To encounter darkspawn, yes....and?

Modifié par Riknas, 10 juin 2011 - 11:49 .


#461
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 988 messages
and they don't believe the story that the Tevinter magisters were the cause of the Darkspawn, so as you said that story holds almost no credibility (if it has any to begin with)

#462
Riknas

Riknas
  • Members
  • 478 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and they don't believe the story that the Tevinter magisters were the cause of the Darkspawn, so as you said that story holds almost no credibility (if it has any to begin with)


Despite that, we do not have any counter story that suggest they are not deviations of the other races.

#463
erynnar

erynnar
  • Members
  • 3 010 messages

Riknas wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hurlocks in Origins were already pale.


And how does moving like a monkey make them better incarnations? The taint doesn't affect them and their movements in Origins because they essentially ARE the taint, and are immune to it.


Essentially? Keep in mind, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, every single darkspawn we've seen are specifically corruptions of already living things.

Furthermore, if the original hulrocks were already pale, it just goes to show this was a vast improvement because we got rid of the obnoxious amount of dirt that obscured the simply orcish skin. Though, perhaps I'm too aggressive in saying that.

It's "better" because it reflects the affects of the taints far better, and helps draw comparisons to the people surviving the consumption of darkspawn flesh, the darkspawn sickness, and the ghouls. I'm sorry if you don't understand that. This is ultimately a matter of taste. This is why I like it more, though I can respect and understand why people like the first kind as well.

That said, if people simply can't understand the move Bioware made at all, or simply dismiss explanations entirely, it seems that you just don't want to understand, and would merely prefer to have it your way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: As evidenced by Tirfan, it seems that it is the latter, with the brilliant retort of "it's stupid."


No, you think it's better. And as for your comment about their armor? Well, they did have a blacksmith in DAO, I killed him. And they steal armor from the people they drag undergournd, modifyinng it. And the new darkspawn's armor is far more clean and better made then DAO's version...chainmail coifs? Full plate armor that all looks clean and the same? Yeah, we're, gonna have to agree to disagree.

And for the record, I think the new ones look more cookie cutter, with less variety. And I haven't seen anything by BioWare stating why they made them all look like Skeletor's bastard progeny who got dental appointments and snazzy new armor. They changed the art style (one of my personal gripes) into something that works better on a console and went more arcade anime. I wouldn't say it's a "direction" as an experiment. Whether you think it was a success or a failure is personal opinion and has nothing to do with my being able to "see" BioWare's vision or direction. I for one am advocating for them to cease this direction myself.:P

Modifié par erynnar, 11 juin 2011 - 12:41 .


#464
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 988 messages
actually they had 2 Forge Masters. Return to Ostagar's and the Deep Roads'.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 juin 2011 - 01:01 .


#465
Vigil11

Vigil11
  • Members
  • 81 messages
I totally agree! the new look is just ridiculos.

#466
ddv.rsa

ddv.rsa
  • Members
  • 880 messages
I preferred the old darkspawn, otherwise I think the new art style is an improvement. The first time I played DA2, I actually burst out laughing when those hurlocks came fumbling across the screen. It took me a while to figure out that those things were darkspawn.

#467
FieryDove

FieryDove
  • Members
  • 2 637 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hurlocks in Origins were already pale.


And how does moving like a monkey make them better incarnations? The taint doesn't affect them and their movements in Origins because they essentially ARE the taint, and are immune to it.


I agree.

The DS all had a menacing grimice in DAO, now...well they just don't look scary or tainted. I think the redesign was maybe not because a few people complained about orc lookalikes in dao but to make the game use less resources...lower poly's and what not. Just a guess of course.

/You win thread

#468
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 988 messages
I think they Chelsea Grin themselves in Origins. The pictures I posted seem to show scars that give the appearance of a twisted smile.

#469
Apathy1989

Apathy1989
  • Members
  • 1 966 messages
I prefered the old Hurlock look. It actually looked corrupted, while the new one is far too clean. I realise they wanted to get away from the Ork similarities, but so many people copy tolkein I don't think we mind anymore.

However I did like the new Qunari and Elf models. Too much similarity to humans before. Qunari also now look much more related to their darkspawn equivalent (ogres). Dwarves receiving a massive jaw was also probably a good decision. Dwarves in DAO were also a bit dull.

#470
erynnar

erynnar
  • Members
  • 3 010 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

actually they had 2 Forge Masters. Return to Ostagar's and the Deep Roads'.


Aw, bugger! I forgot about that dude's brother. Thanks for the reminder! :lol:

#471
Riknas

Riknas
  • Members
  • 478 messages

erynnar wrote...

No, you think it's better. And as for your comment about their armor? Well, they did have a blacksmith in DAO, I killed him. And they steal armor from the people they drag undergournd, modifyinng it. And the new darkspawn's armor is far more clean and better made then DAO's version...chainmail coifs? Full plate armor that all looks clean and the same? Yeah, we're, gonna have to agree to disagree.

And for the record, I think the new ones look more cookie cutter, with less variety. And I haven't seen anything by BioWare stating why they made them all look like Skeletor's bastard progeny who got dental appointments and snazzy new armor. They changed the art style (one of my personal gripes) into something that works better on a console and went more arcade anime. I wouldn't say it's a "direction" as an experiment. Whether you think it was a success or a failure is personal opinion and has nothing to do with my being able to "see" BioWare's vision or direction. I for one am advocating for them to cease this direction myself.:P


True, true, it's better only in my opinion, and I concede that the hurlock armor is far too clean. But in regards to the blacksmiths, hell, if you killed them, maybe that's why their armor is so crappy now, eh? :P Really though, even in the codex entries of the forgemasters hammer (at least, it's a hammer if I remember right...) suggest that they work off very simple, (though effective) jagged and barbaric design.

This is why I think we should keep the principal look of the darkspawn, and add more variations to their armor so they don't look so very uniform, which is what I saw as one of the original flaws of the remarkably well-armed hurlocks and genlocks who all came out prepared perfectly for war.

The newer darkspawn equipments are far more jagged, and cover less skin, which does better lend itself to the idea it was modified. But yes, they need to step back on the "clean" factor, and we need more variety, bring back the alphas and the other darkspawn (with their new looks) and it'll be a more distinct and creative style.

#472
Hel

Hel
  • Members
  • 420 messages
While I'm not opposed to the change in art styles between Dragon Age and Dragon Age II, I do believe that they still have some changes to make here and there. Of course, from an artist's point of view something can always be made different and or better, but that's besides the point.

On hurlocks...
For the darkspawn designs I had that they would attempt to make these creatures appear even more twisted and sinister than their original incarnations. What I miss the most in the new hurlock designs are their vacant looking eyes, the deep eye sockets and their trademark grin that was previously carved into their wicked faces. As it stands currently they seem to be stuck in a phase between your typical undead and the darkspawn disciples we've met in Awakening. Personally I'd have them lean even closer to the disciples, if not use the disciples as a base for the darkspawn altogether -- but without the facial markings and elaborate armours.

The equipment the hurlocks don are an entirely different matter, they look somewhat out of place on the darkspawn. I'd prefer if they looked battered or more like makeshift armours quickly put together from the equipment they gathered from various battlefields.

On emissaries...
The new designs for these darkspawn are pretty good, to be honest. My concern however is that I don't have an idea which type of broodmothers spawn these monsters. They look to have some elven features (note the ears) but their height would suggest otherwise (they're taller than hurlocks, while elves are generally a little bit smaller). Are their physical traits unrelated to their "base race" and can we consider them the mage variants of the hurlocks?

As for their equipment, while I approve of the artistic freedom I once again feel that having them wearing aprons and those leather facial strappings makes little to no sense. Unless there's more to the darkspawn than we've been led to believe, I don't think they conduct magical or other kinds of experiments. Why wear the aprons if they don't -- and the leather facial strappings, well colour me confused.

On ogres...
I like them, I really, really do. Finally that unexplained blueish-purple tint of their is gone, that made no sense what so ever and clashed with the other original darkspawn designs. For the next Dragon Age title I hope that they make them look even more like savages brutes, should they make an appearance in the game.

Their armour is one of their failing points again though. I honestly don't understand why a big, hulking brute such as the ogre has any need for shin, wrist or shoulder guards. I'l chalk it up to artistic freedom again, but I certainly hope they reconsider the current design for the monster's next iteration.

On genlocks...
I haven't seen them rendered in 3D yet, and I'll refrain from commenting on their appearance in Legends. However, the official guide book has this piece of concept art that looks like a genlock to me. Given that it's only a partial representation of the creature it's hard to comment on it, but I won't lie -- I prefer this a LOT more over the original genlock designs which struck me more like D&D orcs.


So much for my contribution to this topic. Maybe I'll come back and write down my opinion about the elves another time. Posted Image

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 11 juin 2011 - 03:20 .


#473
Kilshrek

Kilshrek
  • Members
  • 4 134 messages

Riknas wrote...

If you really want, we can go back and forth just trading insults why the other idea is stupid. I can't help it if you simply don't like the response, but simply note the pictures of your preffered darkspawn. Hurlocks and genlocks mirror almost perfectly Orcs and goblins. Part of this is to go away from that, and adopt its own style.

The older Darkspawn were rooted in simply being dirty and dark skinned, thickly plated armor which is all the weirder for a group that apparently has next to no crafting skills. Also, let's remember how the darkspawn disease corrupts the bodies of others, like Ruck in the Deep Roads, he was hunch-backed, and his arm movements were crippled; he didn't appear to be capable of letting them rest at his side. Ghouls limped about, why did all the darkspawn stand up right (except the Shrieks, which was the only logically made Darkspawn, and works well with the tweak to the elves)?

Posted Image
Hurlock
Posted Image
Uruk
Posted Image
Goblin
Posted Image
Orc
Posted Image
New Hurlock

I asked to be proven wrong, not talked wrong. And if you want more proof of DA 2 hurlocks movements copying goblins almost to a tee I can check if there are videos to compare too. For a group that has no crafting skills it's amazing how they can all get mail coifs done, isn't it?

It wasn't so much that I didn't like the response as I disliked the easy generalisation that people fall into without making an effort to back their words up.

Yes, well, I'm sorry you haven't paid attention but I can not help you with that. Ultimately, there has been more variation so that they do not all look the same.


Yes, good to see the effort there.

Sandal's single gibbering is sort of irrelevant to the situation, at this very moment, the darkspawn are rooted in conventional dwarves, who can not perform magic. This is one of the few retcons that has not been outright mentioned. Simply put though, genlock emissaries don't make any sense, as I've already explained from a genetic standpoint. While they WERE there, they have been removed to better accomodate the science. 

The new genlocks are far more intimidating and monstrous, instead of genlocks simply looking like goblins, they seem like a legitimate danger of their own, resembling beasts more, and less humanoid.


The new genlocks resemble gorrilas (Legends), and have almost nothing to do with dwarves beyond being short and squat looking. But who are we to say that genlock emissaries are removed from the game? Shrieks never appeared as well, have they been removed? Everything that we know is lore, or in the convenient case of the Qunari, carefully done so a change can be implemented without even thinking of a retcon.

And as far as science goes in the world of DA, there is none. There are dragons, dragons by their very existence defy physics. The case of humans and elves defy genetics. For a very popular example, look to the crosses of horses and donkeys. No, Mendel certainly had no hand in DA.

As a closing note, I'll present why I actually think the new darkspawn look better. 

First of all, why wouldn't magic change them? We've already seen how absurd the broodmothers turn, and we don't even know how, we don't know if the magic is being born through the broodmother or the "Child" itself.

That said, moving to the main hurlocks, look at them closely. Pearly white teeth? I'll admit it's a bit odd, but notice how they have a distinct lack of gums (you know, for our teeth) and lips, making their mouths seem very unnatural and threatening. Next, look at their eyes, and how a black stain seems to go down from them, suggesting the taint. Their skin is pale and distorted, better reflecting the underground nature they have.

Also, their armor is much less uniform and more haggard looking, being pieces of jagged metal which is better reflective of what they are supposed to be, monsters. Again, my idea of adding more armor is to make it seem less like a definitive uniform, which is how it can come across with so few different models. Their animations are better depicitons of how living beings are affected by the taint: crippled, unnatural motions. They are perversions, broken living things driven by the song of the Arch Demon, not a will of their own.


Yes, and Ogres are the product of captured Qunari, even then they remain mostly proportional. Body proportions in all the darkspawn breeds remain the same, why should the genlocks be the only exception to the rule?

Look closely at the close up of the new hurlock I furnished and I believe you will see gums, as opposed to the old hurlock which looked like Mileena on a bad hair day. New hurlocks, with the exception of the glassy eyes, now look almost entirely uniform, and worse, completely without intelligence. I was just waiting for a little plate in the middle of their chest for me to hit. The old hurlock had eyes that gave you malice, the sort of eyes that tell you that it knows you're in need of new underwear.

The new hurlock you describe is no better than the orcs and goblins under Sauron. Broken and bound to his evil, that's all they were good for. Now that's generic, a mindless enemy, good only as cannon fodder and to be directed by an evil overmind. They fit right well into the mook trope that way.

About the armour variety, no arguments there, variety is good.

#474
49todd

49todd
  • Members
  • 15 messages
Bring back the purple ogres!

#475
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 988 messages
After much thought, the new Ogre design is one that I dislike as well. It's not horrible like the new Hurlock design, but the original Ogre was much better.


Posted Image



This seems to resemble the new Qunari design a lot more.


Posted Image



than the new Ogre Design does.


Posted Image



But meh. Either one I'll be fine with. I also find it funny how the Ogre is wearing underwear. At least they know how to dress themselves! Posted Image



@helekanalaith (Did I spell that right?): I was wondering what that picture in the collector's edition guide was! If that's a genlock I might just be able to like that new design if it looks really good in an actual game.

As for why Genlock Emissaries exist, it has nothing to do with magical talent like humans and elves possess. The taint has magical powers in it and the emissaries use the power in the taint.

Or Genlock Emissaries are somehow carrying the old dwarven gift for magic. That's just a theory since everyone believes dwarves at one point could cast magic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 juin 2011 - 05:21 .