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[Sidney]

Harid wrote...

Orcs and goblins worked though.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Darkspawn are not why DA was called generic fantasy.

How about, I dunno, staying away from Dwarves, Elves, and Europe/Asia? Or at least put your own spin on them. The problem was that BIoware's spin on these things has outwardly, been done before. Which gives it the generic fantasy label.

Well orcs and goblins are part of the problem. So much of DA* is generic fantasyland:

1. Elves and dwarves - check
2. Reniassiance armor - check
3. Ye Olde England setting - check
4. Ridiculous use of rare medevial weapons like swords and longbows - check
5. Orcs and Goblins -- check
6. Dragons -- check
7. Mages in robes - Check

The credit is that with the mythology of the maker you have achoerent and sensible religion something lacking in most other fantasy settings and a political strutcure that actually makes some sort of sense as opposed to BG2.
Sprinkle in elven oppression and that is the core of what made it feel fresher than it should have.

[TEWR]

Sutekh wrote...


We get to know Ashalle (the Warden's guardian) a bit more in the epilogue. We know, for instance, that she's delighted that she might have an actual house, if the Warden asked for land for the Dalish, which, to me, was quite an important info not only about her, but about Dalish in general (meaning they're not against settling and giving up on the nomadic way of life). Idem for Marethari if the Warden dies. She talks Alistair down a bit, but seems happy with the gift of land to her people. We also hear about Paivel from Hahren Sarel, and about the Warden's family (father) from Varathorn.

I think that lack of connection was intentional, though, to reinforce the feeling you've been sent away from your clan, which is the real drama here. With them leaving North and out of reach, you've got no possible "home" anymore, unlike the other origins. Maybe I'm reading too much into this.

From what I remember, wasn't Mahariel's father the previous Keeper of Mahariel's clan? For some reason I'm thinking that. But I agree that we do get to know Ashalle a bit more than the others (have n't played the DE Origin for a while).

But do we get to know the others of the clan, besides what they do for the clan? At least in the other Origins, we got to know the people we were close to. We knew Gorim was loyal to House Aeducan, as his family had served them for generations. We know that he married and is expecting a child topside, but gladly takes up the banner of Xanthos Aeducan's Second once again.

I just feel that in order for me to care about being sent away from the clan I've lived with my whole life, I should get to know them and who they are a bit more.

And on a whole different matter...

his face was more rounded, and although DA2 Anders looked radically different than that, I was okay with the new look because it looked great. But Awakening Anders looks horrible for some reason.

How dare you!



Frankly, I prefer PC Anders. I like his somewhat pointy face and that he's no male model. DA2 Anders looks even better, except for the black eyebrows / stubble. And when he got that smile...  (oh gods, I'm shallow).

Why did the PS3 model look so different? You can't have mods on the PS3, right? *is console illiterate*

DA2 Anders was indeed amazing. And as far as I know, console users aren't able to mod their games. I guess maybe if you found someone really tech-savvy and could mess around with the game itself, despite having no toolset to work with (though I highly doubt it.)

[Sutekh]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But do we get to know the others of the clan, besides what they do for the clan? At least in the other Origins, we got to know the people we were close to. We knew Gorim was loyal to House Aeducan, as his family had served them for generations. We know that he married and is expecting a child topside, but gladly takes up the banner of Xanthos Aeducan's Second once again.

I just feel that in order for me to care about being sent away from the clan I've lived with my whole life, I should get to know them and who they are a bit more.

Honestly, the moment when you connect the most with your clan in the DE origin is when you visit the ruins with Tamlen. If you speak to him, you have a whole very interesting dialog (albeit a bit buggy, since they mention "Varathorn" instead of Paivel and keep using "lethallan" vs "lethallin"), which gives you insight not only on your friendship with him, but on the clan's way of life, the "up to no good" things you got to do with him, Keeper Marethari figuratively boxing your (pointy) ears etc... This dialog is very easy to miss, though.

Then, back from there, you can speak to Junar, Fenarel (who's a noob, he), and some other nameless hunters, who all apparently care for you, which gives you a sense of belonging. But yeah, no view into their personal lives or whatever.

And yes, Mahariel's father was the Sabrae Keeper. Which raises an interesting question: was he a mage, and are all Keepers mages?

Modifié par Sutekh, 24 juillet 2011 - 01:10 .

[Kilshrek]

Sidney wrote...

4. Ridiculous use of rare medevial weapons like swords and longbows - check

Yes, I see, because the English beat the French knights to death with sharpened sticks and foul language at Agincourt.

Bows were by no means rare, well made swords maybe.

[DariusKalera]

Kilshrek wrote...

Sidney wrote...

4. Ridiculous use of rare medevial weapons like swords and longbows - check

Yes, I see, because the English beat the French knights to death with sharpened sticks and foul language at Agincourt.

Bows were by no means rare, well made swords maybe.

Swords really weren't all that rare either.  But they were set aside quickly enough if another weapon (warhammer, mace, morningstar, axe, or whatever) worked better.

[erynnar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

erynnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ok, she was naive at first.

I haven't seen her as naive at any other point in the game. Maybe a bit.... "oh Merrill" at some points (All That Remains comes to mind).

I have to say though that I thought people were usuing naive as a way to just call her stupid, but I was wrong. the definition of naive fits in with how I described her up top, where she's unaccustomed to other civilizations.

naive: Showing a lack of experience.

Around Act 3 though, she becomes well adjusted.

I think my problem comes from the fact that she was retconned to hell like everything else brought over from DAO. There was no sign of the confident, Merrill in DAO. Just another...DAO must have sucked (when it didn't at all) so lets just change it again. I could understand her being naive about Shem culture (though as a keeper, and learning human elf history, she shouldn't be completely naive) but being so nervous when meeting Shem? The Merrill in DAO woudn't have shown her nervousness (even if she felt it).

I like Merrill, just seemed like they ripped out her spine and revamped her personality a little too much. My Dalish (icon) elf is a little offended. She was her clan mate after all. And they did make her to come out as an air head rather than just learning about Shem culture on the fly. A mix of Merrill from DAO and DA2  would have made more sense.

Edited to add: It just is one more sign of them running too far in the other direction from the wildly successful predeccessor. 

Did you try talking to her when you were in the forest? Because IIRC she says some things that sound confident (though given the circumstances of the Origin confidence is outweighed by fear). But if I'm wrong, then it doesn't bother me, as we were set on a very linear path in that Origin story, unlike the Human Noble or the Dwarf Noble. We never got to know her, and in that regard Origins did suck for that. It would've been nice if the Dalish Elf Origin had some sidequests and wasn't so linear.

And it's one thing to study human-elf relations. It's another to actually deal firsthand with humans, who have been prejudiced against your race for centuries. She doesn't want to risk drawing the ire of humans, Hawke specifically.

The Dalish Elf Origin didn't allow us to get to know many people very well, because we don't see them ever again (save for Tamlen). And that's no excuse for that. We should've gotten to know them, despite never seeing them again. What do we know about Marethari in DAO, aside from that she knows Duncan, thinks the Eluvians are too dangerous, and is a Keeper? Not much. What about Master Ilen? He's the clan's craftsman and he was given a bow by his father IIRC. That's a little bit of information on him. Paivel? He's the hahren who tells stories and gives a funeral poem for Tamlen. It's hard to draw much of a connection to the clan when we don't learn much about them.

I did, and  we got to know her personality. I don't know who this new Merrill is, unless like Anders, her demon gave her a lobotomy. She isn't anything like the old Merrill. And while I found the old Merrill ****y, I still liked her. While I find the new Merrill portrayed as somewhat of a naive childish air head, I like her too. But they are not the same person. 

Just another un-necessary retcon of a person carried over from DAO. Why bother? Why not make Merrill some other Dalish from a different clan? Why bother to bring in characters from the previous game if they are going to treat it as if we should just forget the first? The premise behind the retcons are what upset me. From Merrill to the darkspawn. If they wanted a new game why didnt' they just make one?

[Sidney]

Kilshrek wrote...

Sidney wrote...

4. Ridiculous use of rare medevial weapons like swords and longbows - check

Yes, I see, because the English beat the French knights to death with sharpened sticks and foul language at Agincourt.

Bows were by no means rare, well made swords maybe.

The English were realy the only archers - especially with longbows-  and the number of bowmen at agincourt was not massive - the whole English army wasn't big to begin with.

[Sidney]

DariusKalera wrote...

Swords really weren't all that rare either.  But they were set aside quickly enough if another weapon (warhammer, mace, morningstar, axe, or whatever) worked better.

You'd not have swords in the hands of the average schlep guard and certainly not a bandit.

[Windwaker558]

Funny how things go from the Darkspawn's new look to the English archers and French sticks.

[FieryDove]

Windwaker558 wrote...

Funny how things go from the Darkspawn's new look to the English archers and French sticks.

I agree. Let's change it again.

English muffins, French Toast.

[erynnar]

FieryDove wrote...

Windwaker558 wrote...

Funny how things go from the Darkspawn's new look to the English archers and French sticks.

I agree. Let's change it again.

English muffins, French Toast.

Yes, the new derpspawn look like they are made of both.

[DariusKalera]

Sidney wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

Swords really weren't all that rare either.  But they were set aside quickly enough if another weapon (warhammer, mace, morningstar, axe, or whatever) worked better.

You'd not have swords in the hands of the average schlep guard and certainly not a bandit.

Never said that you would.  I just said that they weren't rare. 

[Kilshrek]

erynnar wrote...

Yes, the new derpspawn look like they are made of both.

Don't you go insulting my french toast now! I'm quite partial to them.

I'll never be able to look at a plate of french toast the same after this... I'll always expect it to jump around in a comical manner and have perfect little pieces of egg shell on a patch near the crust.

[TEWR]

Kilshrek wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Yes, the new derpspawn look like they are made of both.

Don't you go insulting my french toast now! I'm quite partial to them.

I'll never be able to look at a plate of french toast the same after this... I'll always expect it to jump around in a comical manner and have perfect little pieces of egg shell on a patch near the crust.

Just be wary of them flinging their poop at you!

Sutekh wrote...

Honestly, the moment when you connect the most with your clan in the DE origin is when you visit the ruins with Tamlen. If you speak to him, you have a whole very interesting dialog (albeit a bit buggy, since they mention "Varathorn" instead of Paivel and keep using "lethallan" vs "lethallin"), which gives you insight not only on your friendship with him, but on the clan's way of life, the "up to no good" things you got to do with him, Keeper Marethari figuratively boxing your (pointy) ears etc... This dialog is very easy to miss, though.

Then, back from there, you can speak to Junar, Fenarel (who's a noob, he), and some other nameless hunters, who all apparently care for you, which gives you a sense of belonging. But yeah, no view into their personal lives or whatever.

And yes, Mahariel's father was the Sabrae Keeper. Which raises an interesting question: was he a mage, and are all Keepers mages?

Hmmm... I haven't done the Tamlen in the Ruins conversation for a long while now.

And I think somewhere in the DA universe it was stated that all Dalish Keepers are mages, so as to keep to the old ways. Plus, I think the Dales had a council of elven mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 juillet 2011 - 02:14 .

[erynnar]

Kilshrek wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Yes, the new derpspawn look like they are made of both.

Don't you go insulting my french toast now! I'm quite partial to them.

I'll never be able to look at a plate of french toast the same after this... I'll always expect it to jump around in a comical manner and have perfect little pieces of egg shell on a patch near the crust.

Aw, sorry Kil! *HUGS*

@Eth ROFL!!! Poo balls made of powdered sugar and syrup! Watch out!

[TEWR]

time to bring this thread back to life. Breathe dammit! I'm not gonna let you die on me! Breathe!
@ery: Sticky, yet delicious!

and taken from the other darkspawn thread regarding the new Genlock design:

In terms of the torso and facial appearance, yes they are indeed similar (not counting the Genlock Alphas, because they are Alphas). In terms of the legs? No, because the legs are smaller, which explains why they prefer to use the arms to help them move easier.








Their build is indeed similar to dwarves. But, the taint changes the size of a Darkspawn in relation to the race they come from.











Now you look at that. The Ogre's arms are at least twice as big, and the Ogres are twice as tall. Yet how did a person know that Ogres came from Kossith broodmothers before the revelation of horned Qunari? Especially when you found out that Laryn the Broodmother makes Genlocks? You didn't.

The point is that the taint makes the Darkspawn bigger than the race they're a twisted incarnation of. 

Now, should the Genlock Alphas be reduced in size a smidgeon? Yes, but just enough so that there is a clear difference in height between the Hurlock grunts and the Genlock Alphas. 

And just to add: something can be bigger, but still look remarkably similar in appearance to something.

[Corto81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

-snip-

I guess it's a matter of preference, but just looking at it, without having played either DA:O or DA2 since April,
Origins seems grown-up in art-style, DA2 seems childish and over-the-top and I can't help but be bothered by it.

Meh. :/

[Sabariel]

I don't hate the new darkspawn per se, but I don't much like the design either. Like almost everything present in DA2, the darkspawn look too... clean and pristine. The DAO darkspawn looked like they were dirty and smelly... and that's the way I like my monsters to look

Modifié par Sabariel, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:02 .

[alex90c]

I played Legacy and still think the derpspawn look pathetic. The only redeeming quality was that the alphas made for a nice challenge (impenetrable genlock shield & hurlock alphas swinging that huge broom around).

[Eledran]

I would like to at least have the pointy teeth back, the rest is of secondary importance. Though I must say I also liked the brownish / bloodied look a lot more, it fits the background of the darkspawn better.

But to give bloodthirsty creatures who feed on the flesh of their victims a mouth full of flat molars a horse would be proud of is just wrong.

Modifié par Eledran, 29 juillet 2011 - 11:17 .

[Eurhetemec]

The more I see the new Darkspawn, the less I like them, I have to admit. The Alphas in Legacy are pretty okay, but the rest of them just don't look filthy and decayed and so on. They're relatively clean and neat. They should be soaked in the unwashed blood of their victims and generally filthy.

I'm guessing their look was changed to make them more distinct from Undead, visually, but they really aren't very scary right now. Make them filthy, make their armour look more makeshift and half-arsed and less carefully-designed, and make sure they all have sharp teeth, I say. Right now they're like the way cleaner and nice cousins of the Uruk-Hai from the LotR movies, when they really should be grimmer and more disturbing than the Uruk-Hai.

At least the Hurlock Alpha is missing part of it's upper lip, which is a good start.

[TEWR]

I do agree that their should be some variety in the armor the Darkspawn wear. A pic a few pages back showed a creature wearing some half-assed armor that would work really well for the Darkspawn to wear.

I definitely want to see sharp teeth again. At least the Hurlock Alphas have sharp teeth. Now the Hurlock grunts just need to go back to their old design and the Ogres need to be made purple again and have the face not be so mushed.

I also prefer the DAO Ogre eyes over the DA2 Ogre eyes.



found the pic





That should be what the grunts wear at the very least. It looks half-assed, but effective. Of course there should be variety. More armor on some.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 juillet 2011 - 08:46 .

[Ariella]

Are we saying the new genlocks are cute and fuzzy? And if Ser Pounce a Lot smack one of those across the nose, he's lucky to still be with us.

[vallore]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I do agree that their should be some variety in the armor the Darkspawn wear. A pic a few pages back showed a creature wearing some half-assed armor that would work really well for the Darkspawn to wear.

I definitely want to see sharp teeth again. At least the Hurlock Alphas have sharp teeth. Now the Hurlock grunts just need to go back to their old design and the Ogres need to be made purple again and have the face not be so mushed.

I also prefer the DAO Ogre eyes over the DA2 Ogre eyes.



found the pic





That should be what the grunts wear at the very least. It looks half-assed, but effective. Of course there should be variety. More armor on some.

Now that is an interesting development, far from the comical look darkspawn had onDA2.


Now if they would remake the new look of the elves into something that resembled what they were on Origins... that would be something

[Kilshrek]

Eurhetemec wrote...

The more I see the new Darkspawn, the less I like them, I have to admit. The Alphas in Legacy are pretty okay, but the rest of them just don't look filthy and decayed and so on. They're relatively clean and neat. They should be soaked in the unwashed blood of their victims and generally filthy.

I'm guessing their look was changed to make them more distinct from Undead, visually, but they really aren't very scary right now. Make them filthy, make their armour look more makeshift and half-arsed and less carefully-designed, and make sure they all have sharp teeth, I say. Right now they're like the way cleaner and nice cousins of the Uruk-Hai from the LotR movies, when they really should be grimmer and more disturbing than the Uruk-Hai.

At least the Hurlock Alpha is missing part of it's upper lip, which is a good start.

Problem here being, hurlocks weren't meant to have any lips. Or at least from any of the close ups in DAO showed, them buggers don't got no lips, so where did they come from in DA 2. And I would really like the number of their orthodontist, because they had some messed up teeth in DAO, but now have pearly whites in DA 2.