21 réponses à ce sujet

[BelgarathMTH]

Hello, I've recently been playing with a kensai in my current BG2 party, because I wanted to try the Nathaniel mod.

I've just finally had to get rid of him, because I got really tired of his constant drain on party healing resources!

He was consistently at "near death" and "badly wounded" in every battle, while the rest of the party didn't have a scratch! And that was with the "stackable AC bonuses" tweak and his wearing two Rings of AC +1, a necklace and a cloak! I shudder to think of his trying to fight with his unmodded armorless AC - and not even bracers!

I almost wanted to laugh at how lame his class made him compared to the rest of my party with traditional armor and magic and character classes. I was strongly reminded of the scene in Indiana Jones Temple of Doom where Indy watches a kensai-like middle Eastern guy flourish his two dual-wielded swords in a flashy, intimidating display of offensive skill, and then Indy smirks and promptly pulls out his pistol and shoots him dead in one hit!

It really seemed to me like Nathaniel the kensai was trying to fight the equivalent of guns, "phasers", and "deflector shields" with "stone knives and bearskins," with emphasis on the "bearskins".

Could someone please explain to me why so many people think that kensai is a good class? Are they thinking only of the dualled kensai-thief who can use stealth and backstabbing together with the high THACO and damage? What is up with this class?

I really wish that Nathaniel's writers had given him a decent character class!

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 29 mai 2011 - 11:50 .

[Matuse]

Trick with a Kensai is to not let them get hit. Have someone else go first who can take the hits.

Later on, all the AC in the world will barely make a difference, and the Kensai will be hitting for ungodly damage with their ever increasing bonuses and kai shouts.

Personally, I don't really care for Kensai. I'm much more of a fan of Berzerkers.

[BelgarathMTH]

Matuse, indeed. At least Berserkers can wear armor, and they get the immunities of the berserk state.

If the kensai follows the "Fighters Are Linear, Wizards Are Quadratic" trope as though he were a wizard, then it would make more sense to just be a fighter-mage, which would be so much more powerful.

I really still don't get what people see in the kensai class.

[Moganza]

What first drew me towards Kensai was the description. A warrior thats one with his sword. Kinda reminded me of Samurai. A Kensai isnt really useful unless you dual him. Armour isnt a problem if you dual him to mage because chances are you're going to wear the robe of vecna anyway and the elven armour isnt really that amazing.Then there is Kai which tbh i think is kinda annoying because it doesnt last very long but its still a worthy addition. The only other class that rivals a Kensai/Mage is a Berserker/Mage (in terms of fighter/mage classes). I guess its just preference in the end.

[Flamedance]

They can be decent enough when dualclassed to thief and used for hit and run attacks. Even then, dualclassing them before lvl 13 is pretty much pointless. For dualclassing to mage, i'd take a berserker over a kensai any day.

If you have SCS installed, a pure kensai is even more pathetic since more often than not, your opponents will focus on the character with the highest AC, which is usually your kensai, even if you send in tanks first. Kensais would be better if BG had an aggro system like WOW. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

And don't play a kensai in a BGT game, starting in Candlekeep. Unless you're a masochist, that is.

[BelgarathMTH]

Thanks for the feedback, everybody. It sounds like the people who have posted so far already agree with me more or less.

I'd still love to hear from somebody who believes in the class and would care to defend it.

I've read some no-reload solo threads from people who did it as a straight class. Were they just doing that to increase the challenge by deliberately picking a lousy class?

I get the roleplaying allure of it - it sounds great on paper, and it invokes a lot of movie hero tropes.

But in practice in the game, it just seems so weak and vulnerable and useless as part of a team, with nothing unique or valuable to contribute.

[Luminus]

I personally dislike classes that are very weak in the beginning and then become godlike.
Examples are Kensai and Monk and Mage (though the Mage is much more balanced since you have to micromanage the whole thing and find all the spells).

And I dislike cheesy Kensai/Mages. "Yeah I decided to become a mage after 20 levels of mastering a weapon".

By saying "yeah they suck in the beginning BUT after 10-15+ levels they kick ass", it makes me want to play them even less.

For a more balanced approach, I suggest you pick Berserker, Barbarian or a Paladin kit.

[AnonymousHero]

Well, I've taken a Kensai no-reload solo through BG1 (BGT). He dualed to Mage in BG2, so I don't have any single-class high-level experience.

In the early to mid game, the key to a Kensai is lowering his AC. There are two basic ways to do that: The Shield Amulet (usable by the solo) and Spirit Armor (have a mage cast it on him). Further options include potions (Invulnerability and Defense) and there are also the +3 AC belts (swap as appropriate).

If you take on the enemy one-on-one there's very little that withstand the onslaught of a Kensai. The trick here is getting the enemy to separate so that you can do that.

[Grond0]

If you are playing vanilla then it is easy to get enemies to target the character you want - the ability of kensais to join combat late and do lots of damage can then be pretty useful. As Flamedance notes, however, this is much more difficult to do if you're using SCS.

[BelgarathMTH]

@Anonymous, ah, I didn't realize you could cast Spirit Armor on a friend. That still makes him dependent on a mage friend or a "cheesy dual class" to be effective, though.

As for a Belt of Armor +3, I've never seen such a thing. I certainly don't care for a class that depends on metagaming secrets to be effective.

I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me why in the world anybody would want to play the kensai as a straight class, other than pure role-playing and increased challenge from being a glass cannon.

I love playing "Squishy Mage" and "Fighters Are Linear, Wizards Are Quadratic", but those characters have actual unique contributions to make even at lower levels, such as Identify, Magic Missile (for hard to hit or only damaged by magic enemies, before the fighters can get their THACO down or find magic weapons), and Sleep (devastating AoE at low levels that saves the day in ambushes and against tank-protected and covered ranged and casting units).

I just can't see where the kensai has anything useful to contribute at any level, and he/she seems defenseless at most levels.

As far as the role of high melee damage dealer behind the tank, the barbarian or fighter/mage does that exponentially more effectively.

[Shadow_Leech07]

BelgarathMTH wrote...



I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me why in the world anybody would want to play the kensai as a straight class, other than pure role-playing and increased challenge from being a glass cannon.

Who is saying that the kensai is a top tier class? The only reason to play a kensai is if a person wants to melee and deal enormous damage. The only problem is getting there and the payoffs aren't even that great. Another problem is that the archer(ranger kit) completely outclasses the kensai as the archer has the damage bonuses(most of the time) and does this with bows and missile weapons. No one saids the kensai is top level. The field of top level starts with classes that would obliterate the kensai.

[kenng]

I have soloed a half-orc kensai through BG2/ToB as well as played him in an evil party (though not completed the game).

My conclusion is similar to yours. He is a very lopsided character, in that he is capable of dishing out impressive amounts of damage, but can't tank for nuts. The dungeon part was a headache, I ended up drinking every single pot I found there and still only barely scrapped through. The shield amulet in Nalia's keep helps some, but eventually, even AC -6 (base4, -2kensai, -2gaxx, -2ring-of-prot, -4dex) becomes insufficient. I wore the cloak of displacement to help with saves, and couldn't be bothered to wear the appropriate girdle (stuck with inertial barrier belt all the way).

You will need to load up on potions of defense/invulnerability (giving you an AC of -10), there should be enough in the game to see you through the tougher fights. Later in ToB, it was essentially a battle of attrition, a race to see if I could spam my wand of resurrection fast enough or if the enemies could deal damage faster. If you are interested in knowing more, ask here, though my memory may be a little hazy as it has already been several years.

In conclusion, the kensai is a pretty decent class. I think I took down demogorgon in a single whirlwind! At lv40, he is getting +13 to-hit/damage, together with crom-faeyr granting 25str, he is really capable of dishing out impressive amounts of damage. You just need to be prepared to quaff potions like water to supplement his abilities, and be prepared for the mental shock of seeing his hp bar fluctuate constantly. 

A kensai-mage is a very strong combination, though I doubt that was what the designers had in mind when they designed the kensai kit though.

Modifié par kenng, 30 mai 2011 - 10:59 .

[polytope]

Hmm, a while back, I took a solo kensai quite far before losing interest - not a fan of soloing.

Potions of stone form - duhm or a potion of mind focusing used afterwards to negate the dex penalty - are excellent for a solo kensai, to get them a decent AC. Ioun stones are the only helmet type thing they can use but Umar dungeon is pretty easy even for a low level solo kensai.

Apart from the hit and damage bonuses, the attack speed factor bonus will often guarantee you first strike on an enemy.

Still, I have to agree with everyone who said they'd prefer a berserker/barbarian/paladin (or arguably even a kitted ranger, stalker or archer).

[AnonymousHero]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

@Anonymous, ah, I didn't realize you could cast Spirit Armor on a friend. That still makes him dependent on a mage friend or a "cheesy dual class" to be effective, though.

Calling it a "cheesy dual class" does not make it so. I don't find it any stranger than any other Fighter->Mage dualclass.

BelgarathMTH wrote...
I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me why in the world anybody would want to play the kensai as a straight class, other than pure role-playing and increased challenge from being a glass cannon.

That statement is almost a tautology. You've just qualified your statement to exclude the reasons people have listed.

[kenng]

I don't see the issue with a class being "dependent" on buffs to be effective. You are in a party for a reason, so you can all make up for one another's flaws while maximizing their strengths. Is it cheesy if a mage casts invisibility on a rogue so he may backstab, or if a cleric casts heal on a wizard slayer if he cannot quaff potions himself?

As mentioned earlier, there are ways to get around the kensai's drawbacks. As to why I might play one in a party, pure damage dealing capability. Since he can't tank well, then don't let him. Have another npc like Korgan take the hits and soak up the damage, while the kensai attacks unmolested.

[morbidest2]

I agree that classes like kensai or wizard slayer are not cheesy. But my objection to them is that as the game goes on you find that in preparing for your toughest battles you set up a party of not 6, but rather 11: you summon/gate in 5 critters before trying to kill that dragon!
But if one of your NPCs is a full time babysitter for your, say, wizard slayer, then your party of 11 is down to 10 or 9, since a cleric busy healing a wiz. s. can't bring in another summons when the 1st one is killed.
I once took a wiz. s. successfully thru the end of ToB and learned the hard way that I had handicapped myself. People have had successful runs with with all sorts of partys (how about a Beast Master and 5 bards!), and using a kensai strikes me as also being a deliberate attempt to make the game tougher.

[Shadow_Leech07]

morbidest2 wrote...

I once took a wiz. s. successfully thru the end of ToB and learned the hard way that I had handicapped myself. People have had successful runs with with all sorts of partys (how about a Beast Master and 5 bards!), and using a kensai strikes me as also being a deliberate attempt to make the game tougher.

I once tried soloing a kensai in BG2 (on insane difficulty) and found out that even the goblins in the beginning dungeon could tear my poor character to pieces. Anything with a bow or missile weapon can seriously damage a kensai, nevermind what an enemy mage could do.

[BelgarathMTH]

Thanks everybody, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, and I apologize for the tautology.

I started the thread as a rant because I like the Nathaniel mod, and I was frustrated that the author chose kensai for his class. I kind of wonder why she did that, but oh well. I guess she thought it made his story better, and maybe she was trying to appeal to some kind of fantasy that some gay men have - protecting and providing for a younger man.

If you play a romance with Nathaniel the kensai, you are certainly going to be doing a lot of protecting him, that's for sure, since he can't protect himself and is going to tax your party resources.

My thanks again to everyone who engaged with this topic. It looks like the consensus is that kensai is a so-so class at best and a horrible class at worst, but that a lot of people like it for story and roleplay.

[kenng]

I dunno, I tried a wizard slayer in an evil party and they seemed to fair quite well. I won't call your other party members a babysitter, that implies your PC is useless and can't contribute to battle. classes like the kensai and wizardslayer can, they just have glaring weaknesses which need to be shored up, but the end result doesn't seem any weaker than say, berserker or paladin.

[Seagloom]

I had a positive experience the one time I played a kensai, and that was without using a shield amulet or having a mage casting spirit armor. As others suggested I had a beefier warrior do the tanking. I also focused on two handed weapons for the kensai. Why? Because a halberd or staff allows a kensai to attack from across a space. That let me position my kensai safely behind the tank while striking an enemy.

I think single-classed kensai suffer from the expectation that because they're fighters, they should be able to take a beating. A kensai shares more in common with niche classes such as the bard. Specialists can be handy, but they are rarely as vital to group survival as the traditional foursome.

[Windfoot]

I admit I haven't played a Kensai all the way through the trilogy but I have played with them through BG2-SoA.

Single class kensai can really shine in certain situations. In most group fights you have front line attackers and a second line of casters/archers. Kensai move very fast; so, after your fighters engage/get tied up with their front line you slip your fast moving kensai to their archer lines and lay waste to them. Remember archers have a reduced chance to hit you when they're engaged at melee range. A hasted (oil of speed) Kensai using Kai can be a wonder to behold.

In some fights where you enter a room and immediately are in the fight, you can sometimes get the Kensai on the mages before they even throw up their defenses.

I second Seagloom's idea of using 2H weapons. With a 2H weapon you can attack from behind your front line fighters and with a * in 2H weapon style you double your chance of criting.

A Kensai (like an archer) can reach unmatched THAC0 which allow him to hit even when blinded. one aspect that is very nice is past level 21 where a normal fighter caps out at a THAC0 of 0, a Kensai will continue getting better THAC0 and better damage.

As mentioned earlier you have to micro-manage the Kensai a bit to be sure he doesnt rush past his comrades and get surrounded by the enemy. One-on-one a Kensai generally doesnt take alot of damage because he kills an enemy quickly. If he starts taking a beating use his fast speed to run away.

That all being said a Kensai is definately not one of my favorite chars to play. But, I think it is better than what you're making it out to be.

V/R,
Windfoot

[BelgarathMTH]

Unfortunately, Nathaniel is set up by his author to dual wield, so he can't do the two-handed tactic. The character program already has stability problems, and trying to use Shadowkeeper to change anything about him makes the stability problems much worse.

Also, he doesn't have very good stats. It's like they were trying to make him weak on purpose just because it was part of his story concept. I think you're supposed to feel protective of him and then fall in love if you're doing his romance story.