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Please Let Us Evolve Biotic Powers to be Instant Cast!

Débuté par Guest_iOnlySignIn_* , mai 30 2011 04:43

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42 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 04:43

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The option of Instant Cast would make Biotic powers a lot more precise and plan-able.

See that bunch of mercs clumped up at that far entrance, whose Shields your squadmate has just Overloaded? By the time your Pull Field land on them, they would have spread out into different covers and you would have only Pulled one of them. If your Pull Field is instant cast like Samara's, Jack's, or Jacob's, you would have lifted all 7 of them off their feet and then Warp Bombed them to oblivion.

Seriously, BioWare, please at least give us the OPTION to evolve our Biotic powers to be instant cast. I'd even pay extra Talent points for it. It just makes no sense whatsoever that Shepard's powers work in a different, and often inferior way to squadmates. Your "arching power around cover" idea was a nice ideal, but it bugs out at least 50% of the time and simply wastes a player's cooldown. The other 50% of the time the player would have easily flanked the enemy anyway.

For those of you who would like to experience what an Instant Cast Biotic power from Shepard is like, use this guide to mod the game. For example, if you want your Adept's Pull Field to be instant cast, simply do not evolve the Adept's Pull power, and add the Vanguard's Pull Field as a power via modding instead. I tried it, and I swear it's the best thing ever for a Biotic Shepard.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 30 mai 2011 - 04:48 .

#2
lazuli
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 04:52

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What a fantastic idea. If nothing else, projectile speed should be something we can modify through upgrades, leveling up, or equipment in ME3.

#3
samurai crusade
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 05:06

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Kind of disagree. All biotic fields are "thrown" so to speak. Singularity, Warp, and possibly lift are the only ones that make sense to me to "appear" instantly without originating from the biotic.

#4
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 05:07

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lazuli wrote...

What a fantastic idea. If nothing else, projectile speed should be something we can modify through upgrades, leveling up, or equipment in ME3.


Thanks! Have you tried modding your Adept to have instant cast Pull Field? It instantly made Adept my new favorite class, and finally rendered Reave completely obsolete.

Come to think of it, what's the real strengths of Reave or Neural Shock over Pull or Cryo Blast? Instant Cast! That's all there is.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 30 mai 2011 - 05:09 .

#5
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 05:13

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samurai crusade wrote...

Kind of disagree. All biotic fields are "thrown" so to speak. Singularity, Warp, and possibly lift are the only ones that make sense to me to "appear" instantly without originating from the biotic.

Nobody knew squat about biotic fields being "thrown" until ME2 came out. And even with ME2 out, there is no lore whatsoever about biotic fields being "thrown". What gets "thrown", anyway? Biotics are controlled by the users's MIND. It should depend on how fast one THINKS, not how fast a flimsy cloud of blue smoke drifts through air.

If enemies are like those in ME1, then instant cast won't make that much of a difference. In ME2, they are all highly trained ballet dancers capable of moving faster from side to side than fiddler crabs. Instant cast is needed if you want your powers to land exactly when and where you wish.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 30 mai 2011 - 05:14 .

#6
samurai crusade
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 05:15

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Actually the lore comes from the Karpyshyn books. It was never shown that the biotics were "thrown" in ME1 but the hand movements for the biotic feedback were there. Technically... biotics cannot be seen, it's a visual que for gamers.   Also the ME2 biotic mechanics were changed from ME1 to give a more tactical feel to gameplay.

Biotic abilities are activated using a technique called "physical mnemonics", in which the biotic uses a physical gesture to cause neurons to fire in a certain sequence, sending an electrical charge through their eezo nodules and creating the desired effect

Modifié par samurai crusade, 30 mai 2011 - 05:23 .

#7
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 05:22

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samurai crusade wrote...

Actually the lore comes from the Karpyshyn books. It was never shown that the biotics were "thrown" in ME1 but the hand movements for the biotic feedback were there. Technically... biotics cannot be seen, it's a visual que for gamers.

Oh, I'm sorry. I never read the books. Got to check them out!

Lore-wise, if Biotics are some kind of force field (Mass Effect Field), then it should travel at the speed of light like any other field (gravitational, electromagnetic, etc). Only powers like Shockwave (which is more like sound waves than light waves) should travel at a slower-than-light speed.

Anyways, in order to provide reliable and completely controllable gameplay, I believe an instant cast option is necessary.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 30 mai 2011 - 05:34 .

#8
samurai crusade
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 05:27

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I am going to check out the mod tomorrow though.... who knows you may convert me.

You have a valid point with the ME fields and light travel though.

#9
lazuli
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 06:34

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iOnlySignIn wrote...
Have you tried modding your Adept to have instant cast Pull Field?


I play primarily on the xbox and my single attempt at modding (extra minerals) was unsuccessful.  I haven't bothered trying again, as I've played ME2 to death already.

#10
termokanden
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 07:41

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The idea is good. But I don't think we should be paying points for it. How about being able to cast biotics in 2 different modes. One to hit things in cover and the other a quick cast. Only problem is that's one extra thing you can do, which would be a problem since the xbox control scheme is already heavily overloaded (well not really, but they will likely use the extra space for more ability mapping if anything, or so I hope).

Doesn't make sense to pay for something that should already be there (IMO anyway).

Modifié par termokanden, 30 mai 2011 - 07:43 .

#11
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 08:42

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termokanden wrote...

The idea is good. But I don't think we should be paying points for it. How about being able to cast biotics in 2 different modes. One to hit things in cover and the other a quick cast. Only problem is that's one extra thing you can do, which would be a problem since the xbox control scheme is already heavily overloaded (well not really, but they will likely use the extra space for more ability mapping if anything, or so I hope).

Doesn't make sense to pay for something that should already be there (IMO anyway).

I agree 100%. I said I am willing to pay extra points for it, not that I felt I should. :lol:

A sensible compromise for Xbox players would be multiple evolution options for powers, and cheaper and more convenient respec. For example, Pull at Level 4. Select from the following Mastery Evolutions:

(1) Projectile Pull Field;
(2) Instant Pull Field;
(3) Projectile Heavy Pull;
(4) Instant Heavy Pull;

You are expected to respec in different missions according to different mission layouts. Mission briefings will be detailed enough for you to decided whether it's a mission with lots of enemy cover which calls for Projectile Pull, or a mission where you need a lot of instant Warp Bombs for fast neutralization which calls for Instant Pull Field.

I feel safe here weaving this tiny fraction of a Utopic version of ME3 because I know BioWare always exceeds expectations. With the ME series, at least.

#12
termokanden
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 10:54

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Or how about you just have two versions of the "spell". You can just map the one you want.

Makes more sense than eating up an evolution and forcing you to respec It makes most sense to switch between the two during a mission, not between missions when you can respec. You'll only really want to use the projectile version if something's behind cover for example.

But I'd still rather have your version than not getting the choice in the first place.

Modifié par termokanden, 30 mai 2011 - 10:55 .

#13
Any_ILL
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 12:20

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Respect should be a way to correct some mistakes (if you don't like the gameplay you're forced into by a specific build by example) not a way to spec you after each mission.

I hope that's what they will correct in ME3 (two respe by character and by playthrough max should be enough). Still, I like the idea of specializing in instant or coverproof version.

#14
Clonedzero
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 01:30

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i actually disagree completely. it'd ruin the feel of biotics.

in ME2, warp maybe alot better in most situations than throw or pull, but damn if throw and pull werent super fun to use. arching those around cover was so fun.

also if you include instant cast ones the ones that actually go out should be SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful or it'll be stupidly unbalanced.

i dunno about you, but it is extremely satisfying to launch out a heavy throw at a mech and watch that blue force ball wreck that mech into bits. it being instant would ruin the whole feel of it.

#15
JaegerBane
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 01:58

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I don't necessarily feel 'insta-casting' for all powers would really fix the situation. For one thing, it'd wipe out the aspect of arcing, which I personally felt was a great addition to ME2.

Frankly, I think the only that needs to be done is to speed up the biotic projectiles. I don't know whether the devs intended for this to happen, but the speed they've set the system up to use means that, as you say, it's ensured biotic powers are close-range only.

Pull/Throw/Warp feel like they need a 20%/30% speed increase just to extend their reach that bit further. Singularity.... to be honest I'd question whether anyone on the dev team actually tested this properly as it's so slow it's virtually useless at anything other than close range when taking into account cover, and it's simply not powerful enough to justify such a slow speed.

#16
termokanden
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 02:43

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A speed increase would help.

But I don't see why you couldn't just allow players to have two casting modes. Non-advanced players could just ignore it.

Edit: Come to think of it, I think a significant speed inrease would probably be the best solution. You don't add extra evolutions or key bindings, but the problem is virtually gone and arcing preserved.

Modifié par termokanden, 30 mai 2011 - 02:49 .

#17
Ahglock
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 03:38

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JaegerBane wrote...

I don't necessarily feel 'insta-casting' for all powers would really fix the situation. For one thing, it'd wipe out the aspect of arcing, which I personally felt was a great addition to ME2.

Frankly, I think the only that needs to be done is to speed up the biotic projectiles. I don't know whether the devs intended for this to happen, but the speed they've set the system up to use means that, as you say, it's ensured biotic powers are close-range only.

Pull/Throw/Warp feel like they need a 20%/30% speed increase just to extend their reach that bit further. Singularity.... to be honest I'd question whether anyone on the dev team actually tested this properly as it's so slow it's virtually useless at anything other than close range when taking into account cover, and it's simply not powerful enough to justify such a slow speed.


Yeah, pull is slow but not terribad, a relatively small increase in speed is needed.  I think more than 20-30% but it who knows how it will pan out in testing.  Singualrity is awful in terms of speed Shepard can almost keep up with it if he runs.  That things needs to be at least trippled in speed, it is the class power it should act like one.  

#18
RGFrog
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 03:59

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Did the instacasting thing a long time ago. It's not that great. First, you have to wait until targets are out of cover for EVERYTHING. Granted arc'ing doesn't always get around cover either but there's at least a chance.

Also, you lose all directional effects to the cast. Pull and throw either pull toward your shep or throw directly away from your shep. Wereas arc'ed powers allow you to choose the direction of the effect in a manner.

Insta-cast was fun for about a minute.

#19
Locutus_of_BORG
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 05:29

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RGFrog wrote...

Did the instacasting thing a long time ago. It's not that great. First, you have to wait until targets are out of cover for EVERYTHING. Granted arc'ing doesn't always get around cover either but there's at least a chance.

Also, you lose all directional effects to the cast. Pull and throw either pull toward your shep or throw directly away from your shep. Wereas arc'ed powers allow you to choose the direction of the effect in a manner.

Insta-cast was fun for about a minute.

Pretty much. Some of the basic powers don't work at all w/o a projectile...

Maybe Throw, Pull and Singularity should just be evolved to have faster projectiles.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 30 mai 2011 - 05:30 .

#20
termokanden
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 06:00

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That was discussed above already. Anyway, there's no reason they shouldn't work as instacast powers. We're discussing a redesign of powers, not making the current powers instant and leaving it at that.

#21
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 10:39

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Clonedzero wrote...

also if you include instant cast ones the ones that actually go out should be SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful or it'll be stupidly unbalanced.

Here you're indirectly admitting that instant cast would make Biotics a lot more effective. And since squadmate powers are instant cast, why should Shepard's powers be weaker? The current problem is that squadmate Pull Field is vastly preferred over Shepard's Pull Field because of instant cast. I don't see any other way to fix it.

Of course, you can retain the projectile nature of Shepard's powers. Just give them a decent projectile speed. As fast as bullets would be fine.

i dunno about you, but it is extremely satisfying to launch out a heavy throw at a mech and watch that blue force ball wreck that mech into bits. it being instant would ruin the whole feel of it.

True, but it's extremely frustrating to see your enemy relocate to a different cover by the time your Pull Field lands and renders it useless. Or watch your Pull Field/Warp bug out and quiver like a gadfly over the head of the intended target for a few long seconds before actually hitting it (this is a bug that won't be fixed by increasing projectile speed).

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 30 mai 2011 - 10:43 .

#22
Clonedzero
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 10:42

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

also if you include instant cast ones the ones that actually go out should be SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful or it'll be stupidly unbalanced.

Here you're indirectly admitting that instant cast would make Biotics a lot more effective. And since squadmate powers are instant cast, why should Shepard's powers be weaker? The current problem is that squadmate Pull Field is vastly preferred over Shepard's Pull Field because of instant cast. I don't see any other way to fix it.

Of course, you can retain the projectile nature of Shepard's powers. Just give them a decent projectile speed. As fast as bullets would be fine.

i dunno about you, but it is extremely satisfying to launch out a heavy throw at a mech and watch that blue force ball wreck that mech into bits. it being instant would ruin the whole feel of it.

True, but it's extremely frustrating to see your enemy relocate to a different cover by the time your Pull Field lands and renders it useless. Or watch your Pull Field/Warp bug out and quiver like a gadfly over the head of the intended target for a few long seconds before actually hitting it.

i never have that issue really, since pull is like my favorite ability i got REALLY good at arching them around cover, curving them down hallways through doors, over cover, around cover. ect. if they made it instant it wouldnt be nearly as fun.

only reason squadmates biotics are instant is because you cant control the arch they'd throw them at.

#23
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 10:52

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RGFrog wrote...

Did the instacasting thing a long time ago. It's not that great. First, you have to wait until targets are out of cover for EVERYTHING. Granted arc'ing doesn't always get around cover either but there's at least a chance.

Also, you lose all directional effects to the cast. Pull and throw either pull toward your shep or throw directly away from your shep. Wereas arc'ed powers allow you to choose the direction of the effect in a manner.

Insta-cast was fun for about a minute.

Throw should not be instant cast. But Pull should, IMO.

From my experience, when enemies are in cover, you can arc your projectile Pull unto them slightly more than half the time. In other cases, enemies either (1) relocate to a different cover by the time your Pull lands, which makes your Pull hit cover instead; or (2) are so deep behind cover that it's impossible to arc Pull unto them- you'll loose the targeting (PC).

Even when arcing powers behind cover is doable, you only need to wait a split second longer for enemies to break cover and land an instant cast. In ME2, enemies ALWAYS reliably break cover. Otherwise they won't be able to lay down continuous fire and become useless. So instant cast will not limit your options and slow down your gameplay- actually, it provides a bit more tactics in terms of timing and observing how enemies take and break cover- while with projectile powers you just arc it regardless of enemy cover and pray that it doesn't bug out in one way or the other.

#24
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 10:57

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Paraphrase:

Arcing powers around cover is fun. Waiting for the split second an enemy breaks cover and instantly hit them in the face with your power is fun, too. I prefer the latter because it doesn't bug out on me so often.

Like the Blue Suns troopers on the platforms of Grunt's Recruitment. Instant cast Pull has no problem whatsoever. There's only a small fraction of cases where you need to wait a fraction of a second longer for enemies to break cover to fire your instant Pull, and that wait is shorter than the wait for a projectile Pull to land (perhaps it shouldn't!).

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 30 mai 2011 - 10:59 .

#25
Malanek
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 11:04

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I would support offering the choice when they are evolved. It would actually help encourage the player to use different powers more often. I would say that around 80% "instant" is better but there are still many times where you do want to be able to arc them, usually when you are behind high cover. However Arcining powers is fun and I would definately not support doing away with it altogether.

Modifié par Malanek999, 30 mai 2011 - 11:06 .

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