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[Vespasian 91]

So if you make Bhelen king in origins you end up getting the quest Last of His Line, should you side with Lord Renvil you will receive a letter say that he made it to Kal-Sharok.

Now presuming that he ends up with some power and influence (and that hes a traditionalist like is uncle)  would this mean theres a good chance there will be a Dwarven civil war?

Note:this a not to debate wether Harrowmont or Bhelen are better for Orzammar and the Dwarves.
 

[whykikyouwhy]

I think it would be safe to wager that some civil war will erupt. The various epilogues for DA:O alone reveal the rumblings of dissent due to the several choices available to the Warden (support Harrowmont, support Bhelen, leave the Anvil intact, etc.)

Two things on the wiki that I found interesting were:

 - "The king then rules alone--some say as a tyrant, others say as a visionary determined to drag Orzammar into the modern world." (siding with Bhelen)

 - "If The Warden helps Dagna join the Circle of Magi, she will later author a comprehensive theory of how lyrium vapors relate to the supply of magic. It gains a great deal of attention and inspires mages from other parts of Thedas to establish a new circle in Orzammar itself, one that has ready access to dwarven lyrium... and lies outside the chantry's power completely. The willingness of Orzammar to harbor Apostates sparks outrage that begins whispers that the Divine is contemplating a new Exalted march..."

So if you look at the first quote above, if Bhelen is not regarded too kindly by some, that could potentially give someone from the Harrowmont line cause to rally forces in opposition.

[LobselVith8]

If Lord Renvil Harrowmont is heading to Kal-Sharok, I don't see a civil war happening. There's an ocean of darkspawn between the two Great Thaigs that would make a war between the last two dwarven civilizations impractical.

@ whykikyouwhy - there's one exception to Dagna's research: there's no independent Circle of Orzammar if The Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence. And there's also the possibility of King Bhelen having access to a golem army if the Anvil was spared.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Lord Renvil Harrowmont is heading to Kal-Sharok, I don't see a civil war happening. There's an ocean of darkspawn between the two Great Thaigs that would make a war between the last two dwarven civilizations impractical.

Didn't Nate say that the deep roads were being emptied?

But even withut a civil war, that Harrowmont might convince Kal Shirok to not deal with Orzammar for instance and that they are enemies. I am pretty sure Bhelen, who is not like his senile father, would want to establish relations with Kal Shirok and Renvil might compromise that.

[TEWR]

More reasons why Xanthos Aeducan should've ruled Orzammar.


Also, why was Harrowmont (origins) named a High General of Orzammar's armies? That just doesn't make sense to me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Also, why was Harrowmont (origins) named a High General of Orzammar's armies? That just doesn't make sense to me.

From what I remember he was friends with Endrin. So he got promoted.
I do not see any other qualifications.

He is certainly good at massacring his people, but other than that, I do not see much.

[TEWR]

God why do people in Thedas insist on putting people who aren't qualified for certain jobs in those jobs.

Harrowmont's a decent fellow but I wouldn't trust him to lead the combined forces of peanut butter and jelly to attack the village of Toast.

And he sucks at ruling. Dwarf Nobles should've been able to reclaim their place in the Memories and take the throne when you head to Orzammar.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 mai 2011 - 04:34 .

[Foolsfolly]

Isn't there a dev post or a codex entry or something that said that Kal Shirok has changed? That their society is completely different than Orzammar's?

If so, who's to say Harrowmont can affect anything there? With the next game likely being in Orlais I think we'll find out soon enough.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Isn't there a dev post or a codex entry or something that said that Kal Shirok has changed? That their society is completely different than Orzammar's?

If so, who's to say Harrowmont can affect anything there? With the next game likely being in Orlais I think we'll find out soon enough.

"Kal-Sharok has done some questionable things to survive"

from the codex entry. What those questionable things actually are I don't know, and for some reason my mind is drawn to one horrifying thought......


inbreeding.


I hope to god that isn't it and it's just something like pillaging human villages.

[Foolsfolly]

THAT'S IT!

I have no idea what that is. Since the Codex is from an Orzammar perspective it can be anything. Orzammar themselves came up with Golems which are horrible but may have likely saved Orzammar. They also sealed out Kal-Sharok to survive. So if those are unquestionable things to a dwarf in Orzammar...what the hell is questionable in Kal-Sharok?

I really want to see.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 30 mai 2011 - 05:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I was thinking more along the lines of harvesters or rock wraiths. But it's likely we'll have a whole city of Bartrands all turned nuts by another idol.

[BigEvil]

Just a quick thought but maybe the dwarves of Kal Sharok sacrifice individuals (such as casteless perhaps) to the Darkspawn to keep them occupied elsewhere. Drop a few poor sods out a shaft somewhere into the Deep Roads away from the city, the Darkspawn move off to find them, keeps them busy for a while.

[Sajuro]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Isn't there a dev post or a codex entry or something that said that Kal Shirok has changed? That their society is completely different than Orzammar's?

If so, who's to say Harrowmont can affect anything there? With the next game likely being in Orlais I think we'll find out soon enough.

"Kal-Sharok has done some questionable things to survive"

from the codex entry. What those questionable things actually are I don't know, and for some reason my mind is drawn to one horrifying thought......


inbreeding.


I hope to god that isn't it and it's just something like pillaging human villages.

They started an endless thaig wide dance number to keep the darkspawn at bay, it's logic is certaintly questionable

[Wulfram]

Foolsfolly wrote...

THAT'S IT!

I have no idea what that is. Since the Codex is from an Orzammar perspective it can be anything. Orzammar themselves came up with Golems which are horrible but may have likely saved Orzammar. They also sealed out Kal-Sharok to survive. So if those are unquestionable things to a dwarf in Orzammar...what the hell is questionable in Kal-Sharok?

Common sense?

[WhiteKnyght]

Bhelen is a slimeball, but he's a better king for Orzammar. Harrowmont is content with letting his people live isolated until starvation, inbreeding, and darkspawn kill them off.

Dwarves are very very stuck on tradition, even if it is senseless. Bhelen's policies as king do things that severely offend the other castes, mostly the Warrior and Noble. The casteless are allowed to fight darkspawn in exchange for rights. That makes the Warrior Caste pretty much useless and disgusts the others because they hate Casteless like Kirkwallers hate Fereldans.

I feel sorry for the Harrowmont family if Renvil's claims are actually true. It sounds like something Bhelen would do(it sounds like something a lot of nobles/deshyrs would do), but Renvil might not be completely honest since practically his word is the only thing you have to go on. The Harrowmonts could have tried a coup on Bhelen(his epilogue mentioned several assassination attempts) and he could be running because he failed and didn't want to be executed for treason.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 30 mai 2011 - 08:22 .

[Rifneno]

My guess at Kal-Sharok's "questionable things": At some point they met the Architect and allied with he and his sentient darkspawn in exchange for some protection from the not-so-sentient darkspawn.

[Aesieru]

Bhelen through power over diplomacy, quashes the civil war before it starts... a little fear is added to confirm things.

Harrowmount will use diplomacy and unfortunately he will be overriden and civil war will break out... but I'm doubting that he'll be able to quash it even after it erupts.

[SwordsmanofShadow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

THAT'S IT!

I have no idea what that is. Since the Codex is from an Orzammar perspective it can be anything. Orzammar themselves came up with Golems which are horrible but may have likely saved Orzammar. They also sealed out Kal-Sharok to survive. So if those are unquestionable things to a dwarf in Orzammar...what the hell is questionable in Kal-Sharok?

I really want to see.

When you are cut off from outside contact, supply loss is usually the final nail. I wouldn't be surprised if cannibalism was what they did to survive. After all, the caste's view the casteless as worthless. Wouldn't surprise me if the casteless where being raised and butchered to meet food demand.

As for civil war, with all the turmoil going on the surface, maybe Kal-Sharok dwarves move across the surface and strike Orzammar that way?

[TEWR]

cannibalism was another of my ideas, though I had forgotten about it because.... well.... the more horrifying thought kept taking priority. *shudders*


I have to ask though, does Kal-Sharok have a gate to the surface like Orzammar?

[Rifneno]

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...

When you are cut off from outside contact, supply loss is usually the final nail. I wouldn't be surprised if cannibalism was what they did to survive. After all, the caste's view the casteless as worthless. Wouldn't surprise me if the casteless where being raised and butchered to meet food demand.

The only reason I don't think that's what they were doing is because I honestly don't think Orzammar's dwarves would consider that "questionable."  Casteless aren't even people to them.  Look at that woman in Dust Town... a guard broke her leg, and then made her kneel in crap (literally, actual fecal matter) until infection set in.  And it wasn't that the crippling infection was a side effect of an attempt at humiliation, the crippling infection was his intent. If you're a dwarven noble origin, one of the response options is "As was his right, brand." Or look at GoA... even the Tevinter magister of all people, thought it was bad to butcher casteless so they could use their corpses to make the harvester, but the dwarf has no reservations. Here's the old notes from the dwarf scribe:

"I have ordered more iron from the Miner's Guild. The shaft-rats will deny this request, citing our "waste" of good iron, but I've prepared for this eventuality. I've come up with an alternative: the casteless. No-one will miss them, and it's far better for them to die in the service of this great experiment than to continue living their worthless lives. Nereda seems reluctant, but she is from the surface and doesn't understand. No matter, she wants the research to continue as much as I do, and will eventually come around."

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have to ask though, does Kal-Sharok have a gate to the surface like Orzammar?

No, it doesn't have direct surface access like Orzamar. That's part of the reason they thought it had fallen, Kal-Sharok had no way to send someone out to say "hey, we're still here, for the love of ale help us!"

[TEWR]

so they cannibalize non-casteless then.


And who the hell thought it would be a good idea to make a dwarven city have no direct access to the surface? Especially in a mountain range where you could build fortifications against an outside invasion.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And who the hell thought it would be a good idea to make a dwarven city have no direct access to the surface? Especially in a mountain range where you could build fortifications against an outside invasion.

You have to realize: dwarves are incredibly stupid.  IIRC, in the old dwarven empire before the darkspawn cities with surface access like Orzamar were frowned upon.

[TEWR]

Wow really? They actually disliked that?


They're both stupid and smart at the same time. They can figure out how to make a powerful living siege engine but don't have enough sense to think that a connection to the surface would be beneficial to their society economics wise and military wise.


One would hope that Kal-Sharok may have created some form of access to the surface.

[Elessara]

What exactly does the codex say? It says questionable methods but questionable to whom? If it means questionable to the dwarves of Orzammar maybe Kal Sharok just got rid of the caste system ... maybe they no longer consider casteless to be useless and give them places in the Memories. I know this is Dragon Age and therefore most things are forced to be dark because the devs want it to be pitchblackzomgIcan'tseeeveryoneisdyingpleasedeargodnoIcan'ttakeitanymore dark but maybe ... just maybe ... the dwarves of Kal Sharok did something that WE might consider "good" to survive but the dwarves of Orzammar would consider "questionable".
I can hope, can't I? =\\

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Lord Renvil Harrowmont is heading to Kal-Sharok, I don't see a civil war happening. There's an ocean of darkspawn between the two Great Thaigs that would make a war between the last two dwarven civilizations impractical.

Didn't Nate say that the deep roads were being emptied? 

I've gone through "Finding Nathaniel," but Nathaniel doesn't say the Deep Roads are being cleared. If the Architect was spared, Nathaniel makes note that "the Warden's allies assured us these tunnels would still be mostly clear, but it seems they were wrong." Hawke even describes the scene as Nathaniel meeting "heavy resistance." I can imagine it would be much worse in the fallen dwarven kingdoms where the darkspawn typically reside.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But even withut a civil war, that Harrowmont might convince Kal Shirok to not deal with Orzammar for instance and that they are enemies. I am pretty sure Bhelen, who is not like his senile father, would want to establish relations with Kal Shirok and Renvil might compromise that.

There's so much we don't know about Kal-Sharok that it's difficult to know how Lord Renvil Harrowmont would be received there. Perhaps you're correct, but King Bhelen is increasing trade with the surface world, has the lyrium trade, and is reclaiming the thaig of Kal-Hirol.