201 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

This friend of mine is pretty much a non-gamer. She's not new to game controllers, but she doesn't own any piece of gamer-ready equipment. But she has been known to dabble in games on occasion (obviously one of those who need just the right game to shove them into gamerhood =)), and she took up my offer to help her play DA2 with a smile, curious to find out what it is about these BioWare games that make them so magical to me.

I think it was interesting to see the game from the perspective of someone who has very little under her belt aside from beating a few stages in Mario Bros and beating Portal. So follow along as I go through points she had special issues with - of course she'll have lots since she's new, I'm just naming ones that stopped her progress for quite a long time and necessitated proper explanations from me to continue or things that were otherwise interesting.

In chronological order;

1. Gender / class selection screen
She could immedietly choose what gender she wanted to play, but she wasn't certain about her class. Now, this is pretty unavoidable per se, but since I've heard devs comment that the first Varric exaggeration part of the game is supposed to double as some kind of "try your stuff out" part, it'd be awesome if the game reassured her that she could pick any and then try a new one at a later time. Cassandra could call bullcrap several times as Varric went, for instance, thus allowing her to play multiple classes.

2. Dialogue wheel tones
She didn't feel these icons were explained well enough. She did comment on how wonderful the wheel design itself was (drawing some parallels to some linux guru who had talked about how all PC menus should be of "pie" design instead of lists, in the process), but the icons weren't always obvious. Some were, some weren't. So every now and then she'd have to stop to ask me about how things worked. This was especially true for Investigate lines.

3. Character creation after being introduced to Hawke
As much as she was growing to like her character, she couldn't bear herself to change Hawke's looks since she had gotten used to the original design already. In a way, I guess this isn't a problem. But I know this girl likes dressup, she spent more time designing her Mii on my Wii last year than I did - and I'm notoriously picky and slow with those things =)

Had Hawke's default look simply been the default look and not thrown into her face in the beginning, she would likely have ventured into the CC which would also quite likely have endeared her to character even further. Playing with a look you've designed yourself is a strong "interest hook" in itself (heck I'd know, I bought Minecraft more or less only to be able to play with a skin I made once).

4. Lore and term bomb
I remember feeling I could ask about a lot of terms I already knew well enough when I started DA2, but she didn't feel the same way. Ostagar? Ferelden? The Blight? Lothering? An archdemon? Templars, and what have they got against mages? There were a -lot- of questions she needed me to answer to feel she had an idea what was going on. Reading up on pages worth of codex entries isn't something a new player wants to do.

I'm not saying the script shouldn't include these things until later - far from it - but more care should be taken to allow new players to Investigate to learn about all these things so they can understand the world around them.

5. Equipment management
Simply put, equipment management needs to be simplified somehow. I'm not saying change the entire system cause that'd just make the rest of us angry. But we've got a perfectly functional (at least for Casual difficulty and that's all that matters) Auto-Level feature for Attributes and Abilities.

Similarly, an "Optimise Equipment" button would do a lot of good on the inventory screen. How about when you press that button, you can choose to optimise only for your currently selected character, your current party, or your entire party, in a dialogue option? This would allow new players like her to transition into the game faster to enjoy the plot line without having to deal with all those numbers - the numbers the rest of us love. The Optimise function could simply equip items based on Abilities the character has learnt ("two handed or sword&shield?") and the amount of Stars an item has - as much as we feel the stars don't work perfectly, they'd certainly work good enough for a player on Casual who just doesn't want to run around with level 1 gear the entire game.

---

These games aren't like Devil May Cry. The idea is that someone can choose to play on Casual and be capable of enjoying a great story line and role play without being challeneged very much game play-wise if they don't want to. It's the kind of game our mothers and people new to gaming could be able to enjoy. I say give them the option, as long as it doesn't detract from our experience  =) I'm curious to see if my friend will want to continue playing DA2 or not the next time she comes over. She certainly seemed to enjoy herself overall even though she got stuck now and then ^^

And DA team... kudos on two handed swing animations, along with Varric's and Aveline's characters. She seemed to like them a lot =)

[The Serge777]

It almost sounds like you're suggesting that DA3 needs even more simplification if Bioware wants to attract more casual gamers? Or am I misunderstanding your evaluation?

[Cutlass Jack]

The Serge777 wrote...

It almost sounds like you're suggesting that DA3 needs even more simplification if Bioware wants to attract more casual gamers? Or am I misunderstanding your evaluation?

Well only simplification by adding a function. The Optimize Equipment button idea seems a pretty smart suggestion to me. But based on the equipment star rating thing, I don't think the game is currently up to the challenge of deciding what is good for you.

Interesting feedback, OP. Not what I was expecting when I opened the thread. Thanks for sharing.

[Hel]

No, the suggestion is to add the functionality necessary so it can be easier to play the game, not make the game itself easier. There's a difference between adding a button to equip the recommended items and simplifying the inventory to a single armour item only.

As far as lore introduction goes, I agree. While I didn't have a problem with it myself (having read the books and played Origins), I can understand that for new players all the new terms might inflict an information overload... or lack thereof. However, presenting the players with the relevant information at the correct time is problematic at best, as it doesn't make much sense for the NPC's to give an out of character explanation about what they're talking about.

In my opinion the codex is the best solution for this problem, but it definitely requires some re-engineering to be appealing enough for new players to read. Mass Effect did this nicely by having a spoken codex, but this might not be a suitable implementation for Dragon Age. Supposedly the codex gets filled with information as you go about your merry way and find books or relevant lore-inducing items. Some prelude information might be interesting to have, but the stained-glass introduction video already covers this to some extent.

Good material for discussion.

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 30 mai 2011 - 04:08 .

[Kidd]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Interesting feedback, OP. Not what I was expecting when I opened the thread. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you ^^

Helekanalaith wrote...

As far as lore introduction goes, I agree. While I didn't have a problem with it myself (having read the books and played Origins), I can understand that for new players all the new terms might inflict an information overload... or lack thereof. However, presenting the players with the relevant information at the correct time is problematic at best, as it doesn't make much sense for the NPC's to give an out of character explanation about what they're talking about.

I believe there must be ways. There's almost always ways to make something make sense if you sit down and think about it for a while. It doesn't have to go;

Marian: What are these 'Darkspawn' who are hunting us?
or
Marian: What is Lothering?

Instead, these questions could be baked into other questions. The rest of DA2 actually does this a lot and to great effect. Your Investigate line says something like "What is X?", but when Hawke asks the NPC about it, Hawke will ask something else. And then the exchange between Hawke and the NPC explains what X is, without Hawke actually ever asking about it. Similar things must've been possible to add to the beginning of the game.

[Hel]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Marian: What are these 'Darkspawn' who are hunting us?
or
Marian: What is Lothering?

Instead, these questions could be baked into other questions. The rest of DA2 actually does this a lot and to great effect. Your Investigate line says something like "What is X?", but when Hawke asks the NPC about it, Hawke will ask something else. And then the exchange between Hawke and the NPC explains what X is, without Hawke actually ever asking about it. Similar things must've been possible to add to the beginning of the game.

The problem with that kind of information (Lothering, Darkspawn, Ostagar, etcetera, ...) is that it's supposed to be common knowledge for the character. Given that she hails from Lothering in, is on the run from the darkspawn during a blight and has a brother that served in the army during the battle for Ostagar, these terms should all be familiar to her. No matter how it gets integrated in the dialog it will always appear like it was added to feed the player out-of-character information.

Hence, the codex... or some introductory scene that explains some of the basics upto this particular story in the franchise.

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 30 mai 2011 - 04:21 .

[Patchwork]

A lot of the introducing a new world issues like, what are these Darkspawn of which you speak? What's the deal with templars and mages? Could have been solved with a more explanatory introduction by Verric and Cassandra or that chant stanza being the VO as Verric is dragged in to the Amell estate.
The inventory and the dialogue wheel is less of a learning curve by not being lumped with learning how combat works. Instead have the Hawkes in Lothering preparing to flee and then sibling death cut scene once the player decides to leave.

The battle tutorial really needed to be optional.

[PSUHammer]

THis is always a problem with a series. I know designers are always going to figure out how to introduce new fans, and as a business decision, they should. But it can take away from the story for someone who has been there, done that.

How about a comic cutscene for new players, like the PS3 version of ME2? Make it totally optional for players from the previous game.

Question though, why would someone want to start in the middle of a story? I always wondered why someone would want to play ME2 if it was understood that ME1 was an major introduction to the lore and story. I mean, would you really start watching the Star Wars series with Empire? Wouldn't you wonder why people are running around and what they are fighting for?

Modifié par Hammer6767, 02 juin 2011 - 11:55 .

[Kidd]

Hammer6767 wrote...

Question though, why would someone want to start in the middle of a story? I always wondered why someone would want to play ME2 if it was understood that ME1 was an major introduction to the lore and story. I mean, would you really start watching Star Wars with Empire? Wouldn't you wonder why people are running around and fighting for?

I bet there's lots of reasons. With my friend here, I know she would've ragequit quite early from all the menus in DAO, not to mention the clunky inventory in ME1. I figured DA2 seemed to be the most beginner friendly BioWare game I had laying around, so I gave her a run with that, and I must say it was a good choice. I can't imagine DAO, ME1 or ME2 (shooting requires precision she doesn't have yet) being half as easy to pick up as DA2.

Heck, without a doubt her biggest problem was turning the camera without having to pause while doing that. That's so second nature to me, I turn the camera while actively fighting all the time. But those things are difficult when you're starting out. When I think back to me failing to jump over the first pit in stage 1-1 in the first Super Mario, I feel amazed she can do what she does in the first place =)

Ease of use aside there's plenty of reasons for different people in various situations. Though in principle, I do agree with you.

[PSUHammer]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Question though, why would someone want to start in the middle of a story? I always wondered why someone would want to play ME2 if it was understood that ME1 was an major introduction to the lore and story. I mean, would you really start watching Star Wars with Empire? Wouldn't you wonder why people are running around and fighting for?

I bet there's lots of reasons. With my friend here, I know she would've ragequit quite early from all the menus in DAO, not to mention the clunky inventory in ME1. I figured DA2 seemed to be the most beginner friendly BioWare game I had laying around, so I gave her a run with that, and I must say it was a good choice. I can't imagine DAO, ME1 or ME2 (shooting requires precision she doesn't have yet) being half as easy to pick up as DA2.

Heck, without a doubt her biggest problem was turning the camera without having to pause while doing that. That's so second nature to me, I turn the camera while actively fighting all the time. But those things are difficult when you're starting out. When I think back to me failing to jump over the first pit in stage 1-1 in the first Super Mario, I feel amazed she can do what she does in the first place =)

Ease of use aside there's plenty of reasons for different people in various situations. Though in principle, I do agree with you.

While I totally appreciate what you are saying, I think you are "hitting the nail on the head" of the main disagreements people have with the direction of the franchise.  On one hand, you have die hard RPG players who love the intricacies of the lore, customization, tactical combat, inventory, options, etc.  They don't want to be treated as noobs that only want to get quick, easy gaming fixes.  They feel that by trying to cater to those types of casual gamers, it takes away from the game they are actually looking for from a company like Bioware.

It's a balancing act that a lot of companies fail at, these days.  I think ME franchise has been successful because they always marketed it as an action RPG.  But DAO was pure RPG and DA2 was quite a departure in terms of simplifying things.

There is a difference between making the interface more accessible and "dumbing down" the game.  Bioware is treading that line with DA2 but I don't think they have crossed it yet.

[Kidd]

None of the things I suggested compromise "our" experience at all, and I believe once somebody has played and enjoyed a few games they'll grow more confident and patient in seeing just how much deeper the rabbit hole goes. But when you're completely new to a hobby, it's very difficult to properly get into things when they don't give you accessibility wheels to help you out in a world of bikers, so to speak.

EDIT: When I do play shooters, however rarely that may be, I do not play on any kind of hard difficulty. Cause I can't keep up with that. The developers of those shooters aren't "dumbing down" the game for the core geographic by allowing auto aim and easier difficulty levels at all - they're optional things that will help me out when I suck too hard to play it properly. If I played more shooters I'd get better at them, no? It's the same with rpgs, only rpgs tend to equate "simpler difficulty" with enemies that drop to 1 blow and you taking 20 blows before you fall, without making the actual game play any easier.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 30 mai 2011 - 06:03 .

[Addai]

I don't mind if there are features that allow a new player to optimize automatically, like auto-leveling or auto-equipping, as long as they can be turned off and run manually for the experienced player. As for understanding the lore... *shrug*... if you don't want to have to do any reading, be content with "those are the bad guys."

[nijnij]

I actually think your friends makes some good points. It's not a matter of simplifying the game by dumbing it down but rather what I'd call by "smarting it up". Even I who played through Origins many times was very surprised that some of the lore was to be taken for granted, especially in the beginning (but somehow I find that all the worst things in Dragon Age 2 are concentrated within the first hour).

[JoHnDoE14]

Interesting thoughts...However, I will have to respectfully disagree. Here is my mindset
1) She could play the opening 3 times, to test all classes. Confirming the selection afterwards wouldn't hurt though.
2) For the love of god, it is all explained in the manual!
3) Don't really have an opinion. Many had a problem with this but I am okay.
4) New hardcore players have no problem with reading the codex.' Action' players don't really want to. And I would definitely not want BioWare to spend their limited resources so that I can hear the same things again and again instead of making extra dialogue. It is just a waste of ressources.
5) It is already simplified, but is still acceptable. Optimisation button would also be spending too much. Most 'action' players wouldn't even realise its existence and we would simply never use it

[In Exile]

Bioware was never a company that made "hardcore" games. DA:O was certainly a hardore RPG relative to the games available now, but compare it to its contemporaries circa 2005. The attribute system was simplified, you could no longer kill any NPCs you wanted, there was the idea of cinematic presentation, Origins tied you to the plot and forced you to have a highly predetermined background for your PC, abilities were kept relatively simple in trees compared to D&D, the actual gameplay mechanics were never mentioned on the screen, the attack & defence ratings were far removed from THAC0....

I could keep going. But DA:O was never meant to be hardcore; it was just that it was so long in development that the industry standards shifted.

Bioware already designed mainstream games. It's just that the RPG mainstream of 9 years ago became the hardcore group today.

[Skilled Seeker]

I felt DAO offered a sufficient introduction by having that cutscene play out at the start of the game that explained what the darkspawn were and who the Grey Wardens were. Similarly there could have been a skippable cutscene at the start of DA2 that gave a brief overview on the world of Thedas and the different factions.

[Foolsfolly]

5. Equipment management

You know...

They stripped out the companion armor. There's only a suit per Act that's worth getting per class. And generally the only things you change are weapons (and after 2 play throughs you know where the best weapons are).

And all that is true.

But there's so much time consumed in managing those stupid, nameless, slightly different rings and belts. Oh look a nameless ring that gives a +5 to health vs a ring that does +4 health and +3% natural damage!

Or +7 to stamina amulet and here's a +10 stamina amulet!

That needs simplifying. I want back armor so loot has meaning. But the massive wave of jewelry, much of it the same only slightly better or worse, needs revamping too. Every so often I'd hit up the Hanged Man and switch out all the characters to give them slightly better rings.

Which reminds me, we should be able to outfit companions all at once like in Origins. I hate this switch them out stuff.

[Ju13es]

I vote that bioware puts as much time and effort into DA3 as they did into the mass effect games. I look at the graphics and overall quality and it feels that dragon age got the ****ty end of the stick, a very ****ty one indeed when the game has potential to be far more impressive. Im saying this mostly from a graphics and design standpoint for I thought the story of the dragon age universe is amazing.

[Cutlass Jack]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Which reminds me, we should be able to outfit companions all at once like in Origins. I hate this switch them out stuff.

Agreed. We should have been able to access all their inventories at the Hawke Estate. We were able to do all their runes there, so made no sense we couldn't do inventory as well. And levelups if we wanted.

[Alex Kershaw]

Wow... Wow... Wow. Wow. You create a thread telling Bioware to simplify the game even more so your friend who has never played games before can play a hardcore RPG game at the expense of the actual market who like these sorts of games.

No - buy her the sims or something and leave it be.

[_Aine_]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Which reminds me, we should be able to outfit companions all at once like in Origins. I hate this switch them out stuff.

Agreed. We should have been able to access all their inventories at the Hawke Estate. We were able to do all their runes there, so made no sense we couldn't do inventory as well. And levelups if we wanted.

Signed.  This would be a logical thing.  

[Aradace]

The Serge777 wrote...

It almost sounds like you're suggesting that DA3 needs even more simplification if Bioware wants to attract more casual gamers? Or am I misunderstanding your evaluation?

Well one thing's for sure.  And that's DA3 sure as crap doesnt need to be more like DA:O.  I dont care what they do with it as long as "origins" stays dead.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

Wow... Wow... Wow. Wow. You create a thread telling Bioware to simplify the game even more so your friend who has never played games before can play a hardcore RPG game at the expense of the actual market who like these sorts of games.

No - buy her the sims or something and leave it be.

If you bothered to read the OP and not go into a panic mode outright, you'd not miss parts of the post like this:

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

It's the kind of game our mothers and people new to gaming could be able to enjoy. I say give them the option, as long as it doesn't detract from our experience  =)

[Ottemis]

I agree having autolevel back would be stellar, but I honestly don't think new players would benefit from having everything 'obscured' in a way, for instance by adding an equipment manager.

If the first game you'd play is DA2, then you'd likely play on casual. If you'd like the game enough to stick with it, learning to pick and choose your equipent in therms of personal stat-pref and strength comes gradually and early optimisation is not necessary.
The star system on loot atm + the fact that their gold-value varies should give a certain indication of 'what's better' in general.
Optimisation is not nessecary to be able to play the game equipment wise because the casual setting is forgiving.
Aside from that, with spec-diversity I would argue that a possible equipment manager would not necessarily optimize either, just take away the effort altogether to have to think about it (rather, if you insert an "I don't know' button for everthing concearning stats, where's the incentive to learn to do without it)?

Keeping some aspects in that confront gamers (maybe especially new gamers) with these aspects of the game while not being so horribly important to have to instantly read up and be perfect about would help (I would think) in easing them into the overall experience faster and up the chance of them throwing off the 'kiddy-rails' sooner rather then later, giving them a better feel of how this stuff works.

People not new to gaming overall would arguably have a better understanding of such a system earlier and have a shorter learning curve anyways.

Modifié par Ottemis, 30 mai 2011 - 08:00 .