201 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlasskiwi]

Autolycus wrote...

I was not going to say shooters or sports games....

As for playing on easy....you proved my point. You learn how the game works. dumbing them down even more for people whom have never played a game before is just,.....well...I won't be buying them lets put it that way.

As for the fish...what kind of fish? Better not be anything cheap...or smelly.

I don't think that anyone would like BioWare to dumb the games down. But how is it wrong to offer a better explanation on how things work so that new player can grasp it and actually keep playing and enjoy their time? As far as I can tell this is what the OP wants and I do too.

I have a lot of friends who plays a lot of shooters and sports games so I can see why BioWare would think that some aspect of RPG's would appeal to them. Some of those games have a level up feature, for example, and they love it. They care about their characters on a whole new level, something that's new to them. The same people had a hard time grasping DAO and how it worked, and no they are not stupid people. DA2 worked a little better for them because they got a chance to test some abilities before picking them but I still think that Bio can do a lot better. But this is turing into some kind of rant now.  

[In Exile]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

First explain the controls yourself to her or ask her to read the manual, as every gamer should do when first starts gaming in learning how a game is played.

People keep saying this, but manuals are garbage. Even those fancy old school manuals that are pt on such a pedestal. You'd have to run simulations in excell just to plan out a character for the first time, even if the mechanics are clearly laid out. And while I'm sure some people love the idea of statistical analysis (I did research for so many years it was my bread & butter, and I loved it) that's not central to an RPG at all.

What games should have, instead, is an 'introductory' difficulty thats clearly laid out as such with detailed tutorials guiding a person through one sort of build, with explanations. Something interactive, and as hands-on as you get.

[Marionetten]

In Exile wrote...

Do you think a game should attract a new audience at all? I know you loathe an easy mode in games on principle, so I'm curious. A related question: how do you think a genre remains strong and viable?

If so it should be as a byproduct of being a genuinely awesome product. But no, I don't think a game should go out of its way to pander to a completely different audience. I think it needs to focus on its own audience first and foremost while refining the existing formula. A lot of new gamers are going to discover the franchise because of that refinement.

Imagine for a second if BioWare would taken Dragon Age: Origins and refined it. They would have added the rivalry system, they would have given us better inventory management, they would have focused on making the encounter design more interesting, they would have had choice as a central pillar of design, they would have tightened up the graphics and they would have added cross class combos in addition to the inter class combos we already had.

What I want to see is refinement. That is what I believe makes a genre remain strong and viable. Building on what works and learning from what doesn't. Making it better, stronger and prettier. You need a strong foundation for a strong product. Dragon Age II lacked this because it refused to learn the lessons its predecessor sought to teach it. Dragon Age: Origins was by no means a perfect game but Dragon Age II could have been a better game. No, it should have been the better game.

[Realmzmaster]

Maybe it because I come from playing table top RPGs that when a newcomer wanted to learn we welcomed them with open arms. We sat them down and guided them through the experience especially if the newcomer was dropping into an established gaming party.

If we had more than one newcomer the group would play a beginner's session with the established players helping the newcomers learn the mechanics.

We got quite a few continuing players this way and it fostered goodwill even among those who did not stay.
Is it so unreasonable to have ways in CRPGs to get the same experience for newcomers, non-gamers and casual players?
That way you expand the audience for CRPGs.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Tommy6860 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

shantisands wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Which reminds me, we should be able to outfit companions all at once like in Origins. I hate this switch them out stuff.

Agreed. We should have been able to access all their inventories at the Hawke Estate. We were able to do all their runes there, so made no sense we couldn't do inventory as well. And levelups if we wanted.

Signed.  This would be a logical thing.

The same goes for shopping. In DA:O the player's inventory and shop's inventory both had a simple dropdown list where you were able to select a companion to compare selected gear with. Of course that was "simplified". Why can't they just improve things instead of dumbing down every feature in the game?

I don't think DA:O's system worked like that, in fact, having that drop down list didn't fundtion much for anything at all in shop comparisons. If you were in a shop and looked at the shop's inventory, everything in your list is shown in common as "Party Inventory", no matter who you choose in the list. The only time the I had what you say work the way it does, is by going into the inventory on my own, then choosing my character or my companion. Then it only shows the different characteristics between inventory items in my backpack and what is used by my me or my companions.

Unless I am misunderstanding you, this is how I see it worked anyway.

I also actually think the system in DA2 works better because it works the way you describe above, except I don't like not having the item pics and the inability to use different outfits on my companions..

It worked like this: If you selected a companion from that list then hovering above an item got you a popup that showed how it effected that companion and what was currently equiped. Instead of keeping or improving that BW has chosen to remove it altogether for no reason at all. So you can now only compare stuff when the companion is in your party by clicking her or his avatar. That's not very convenient, is it?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 mai 2011 - 10:37 .

[Sidney]

In Exile wrote...

But rules aren't complex. Have you ever had to work with AI? The degree of challenge in doing just about anything that's even moderately physical is aeons more complex than rule-following.

A game like Ninja Gaiden is just as hard as TW2 at equivalent difficulty, and Europa Universallis is much harder than DA:O on nightare.

Madden or NBA2KXX can be just as challenging and strategic if you're playing franchise mode and building your team, plus dealing with the AI on max difficulty, calling plays, etc.

RPGs offer a certain kind of challenge, but isn't a partiularly special kind of challenge.

Exactly. While the RPG fan would likely sneer at a Madden player those Madden players deal with a lot of the same issues. Players have at least a dozen stats that affect their pay on the field. You have to make real trade-offs : speed vs power, arm strength vs accuracy, cover corner or good tackler etc and that is lot more than you make with DAO or any RPG where you basically have compnaions who are good at what they do - and especially in DA* where you can just min/max the two stats that class really cares about. Then you get cap management and contracts that put the sell everything and buy the best stuff to shame - not to mention having to understand cap rules. Tacticaly and strategic thinking around playbooks, playcalling and roster management -- and then you can get to pricing hot dogs if you want. Those are "lesser folk" who can't manage to dump the 150 armor onto their person....right. Depsite all that complexity million, tens of millions of people play it.

We won't even bother to try and deal with EU, Victoria, Uncommon Valor, War in the East and their ilk.

[Marionetten]

In Exile wrote...

But rules aren't complex. Have you ever had to work with AI? The degree of challenge in doing just about anything that's even moderately physical is aeons more complex than rule-following.

It's not as much about the complexity as the amount. The more rules and possibilities a game has, the more difficult and more importantly time consuming it is to learn. Compare chess to checkers.

In Exile wrote...

RPGs offer a certain kind of challenge, but isn't a partiularly special kind of challenge.

Never argued that. What I did argue was that RPGs typically come with a lot of rules.

My argument also isn't associated to challenge as much as learning. One could easily argue that Mario is a more challenging game than Wasteland. One could not as easily argue that Mario is more difficult to learn than Wasteland.

Modifié par Marionetten, 30 mai 2011 - 10:36 .

[In Exile]

Marionetten wrote...
If so it should be as a byproduct of being a genuinely awesome product. But no, I don't think a game should go out of its way to pander to a completely different audience. I think it needs to focus on its own audience first and foremost while refining the existing formula. A lot of new gamers are going to discover the franchise because of that refinement.

Why do you think accesiblity means pandering? I disliked RPGs with a passion until KoTOR because they just came with a tome and threw you at the game, either expecting you to read the manual and run simulations, or expecting that you had prior experience with D&D.

Yet at this point RPGs are by far my favourite genre. Did KoTOR 'pander' to me? 

There is a difference between someone who simply knows what an RPG is and likes another short of game (so, for example, I have a friend who's been a competitive FPS player since CS and won't touch a Bioware game until it's basically CS) and someone who does not know what games are.

Games that have a non-intuitive learning curve (e.g. development statistics, development paths, inventory management, unit production, etc.) are going to have to create a learning environment for the player.

Take TW2 - it's a brilliant game. Maybe it's a game that 3 million people would love to play. But if 2 million of them drop the controller in frustration, that's not a good sign, and it doesn't need to happen.

For whatever reason, you've construed accesibility with dramatic and unwarranted changes to the game's key structure. Like I said in the TW2 thread where we talked about an 'easy mode' - making something accesible does not mean wholesale changing anything about the game.

Imagine for a second if BioWare would taken Dragon Age: Origins and refined it. They would have added the rivalry system, they would have given us better inventory management, they would have focused on making the encounter design more interesting, they would have had choice as a central pillar of design, they would have tightened up the graphics and they would have added cross class combos in addition to the inter class combos we already had.

How does this take someone who's never played the genre before and teach them how it works?

What I want to see is refinement. That is what I believe makes a genre remain strong and viable. Building on what works and learning from what doesn't. Making it better, stronger and prettier. You need a strong foundation for a strong product. Dragon Age II lacked this because it refused to learn the lessons its predecessor sought to teach it. Dragon Age: Origins was by no means a perfect game but Dragon Age II could have been a better game. No, it should have been the better game.

Right, I don't disagree with you on that (though I'd bet good money we disagree on what refining means) but like I said above, how does this make the game accesible?

[Dragoonlordz]

In Exile wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

First explain the controls yourself to her or ask her to read the manual, as every gamer should do when first starts gaming in learning how a game is played.

People keep saying this, but manuals are garbage. Even those fancy old school manuals that are pt on such a pedestal. You'd have to run simulations in excell just to plan out a character for the first time, even if the mechanics are clearly laid out. And while I'm sure some people love the idea of statistical analysis (I did research for so many years it was my bread & butter, and I loved it) that's not central to an RPG at all.

What games should have, instead, is an 'introductory' difficulty thats clearly laid out as such with detailed tutorials guiding a person through one sort of build, with explanations. Something interactive, and as hands-on as you get.

Nobody new to a game should need to or in most cases even bother to plan out their characters. The first playthrough generally entails learning the game experiencing it most of the time set to easier difficulty, the tweaking trying better builds comes after and not try to get the perfect build first time playing any games. In all cases the manual should be read if nothing else to learn the background story to the title as all manuals cover that and also the controls. The rest can skip.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 mai 2011 - 10:42 .

[In Exile]

Marionetten wrote...
It's not as much about the complexity as the amount. The more rules and possibilities a game has, the more difficult and more importantly time consuming it is to learn. Compare chess to checkers.

But think about how you can learn. If I just throw a chess set at you at tell you to play the computer, you'd take much longer and have a much more frustrating time than taking lessons.

More generally, why is it a good thing to have a large amount of rules, none of which interact in intuitive ways?

I think deceptively complex is much better than complex.

In Exile wrote...
Never argued that. What I did argue was that RPGs typically come with a lot of rules.

I really hate to beat  this horse, but do you think TW2 comes with a lot of rules?  It's quite basic in terms of how it operates, but quite complex in terms of how it plays.

[brain_damage]

A woman talking about linux gurus? Your friend doesn't exist, methinks, or the universe would spontaneously collapse.

[Aradace]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Maybe it because I come from playing table top RPGs that when a newcomer wanted to learn we welcomed them with open arms. We sat them down and guided them through the experience especially if the newcomer was dropping into an established gaming party.

If we had more than one newcomer the group would play a beginner's session with the established players helping the newcomers learn the mechanics.

We got quite a few continuing players this way and it fostered goodwill even among those who did not stay.
Is it so unreasonable to have ways in CRPGs to get the same experience for newcomers, non-gamers and casual players?
That way you expand the audience for CRPGs.

I come from that same aspect lol.  But again, it's because these folks are selfish and believe that only they should be allowed access to games like this.  Selfish Elitism.

On the topic of TW2.  You PC folks will be happy to know that it has been all but confirmed already that TW2 is slated for an Xbox 360 release.  And the reveal is basically going to be at E3.

Modifié par Aradace, 30 mai 2011 - 10:44 .

[Marionetten]

In Exile wrote...

Why do you think accesiblity means pandering? I disliked RPGs with a passion until KoTOR because they just came with a tome and threw you at the game, either expecting you to read the manual and run simulations, or expecting that you had prior experience with D&D.

Yet at this point RPGs are by far my favourite genre. Did KoTOR 'pander' to me? 

There is a difference between someone who simply knows what an RPG is and likes another short of game (so, for example, I have a friend who's been a competitive FPS player since CS and won't touch a Bioware game until it's basically CS) and someone who does not know what games are.

Games that have a non-intuitive learning curve (e.g. development statistics, development paths, inventory management, unit production, etc.) are going to have to create a learning environment for the player.

Take TW2 - it's a brilliant game. Maybe it's a game that 3 million people would love to play. But if 2 million of them drop the controller in frustration, that's not a good sign, and it doesn't need to happen.

For whatever reason, you've construed accesibility with dramatic and unwarranted changes to the game's key structure. Like I said in the TW2 thread where we talked about an 'easy mode' - making something accesible does not mean wholesale changing anything about the game.

I know that it means pandering. When a developer talks about making his product more accessible he's trying to pander to a different audience. Basically, he's trying to broaden the appeal of the product. But in doing that he also thins out the product. Therein lies the problem. If you spend a lot of time on constructing all these different difficulty modes and tutorials you're not going to be spending time constructing other arguably more important things. Once again, zots are limited.

As for Knights of the Old Republic I actually think that game is a good example of refinement over accessibility. Granted, it might have been a bit on the easy side but it isn't really that it was made more accessible. It still operated on the same dice rolls, rules and whatnot. It's just that it was a lot nicer to play and look at because of the glossy presentation. BioWare didn't have to turn it into a shooter or button masher in order to appeal to people. They just made it look good. Most gamers are awfully shallow so this goes a long way.

If The Witcher 2 had followed your ideas it's likely that it would have ended up another Dragon Age II. This would have caused me and countless of other players to drop the controller and not out of frustration. We've already had this discussion in another thread and you failed to rise up to my challenge there. I asked you to name a single game which has successfully catered to everyone from newborn baby to grizzled neckbeard. Until you can do that I'll continue believing that it's far better to offer different products than trying to please everyone with the same.

In Exile wrote...

How does this take someone who's never played the genre before and teach them how it works?

It doesn't. It makes them more interested in getting into the game. It makes them more willing to invest that time required to learn as the reward is greater. Do you think The Witcher 2 would have enjoyed the appeal it did if not for how refined it was as a product? That's my entire point. You don't need to dumb down your product in order to make it attractive for new players. The simpler way is to simply make it more attractive. Compare The Witcher to The Witcher 2 for a good example of this.

In Exile wrote...

But think about how you can learn. If I just throw a chess set at you at tell you to play the computer, you'd take much longer and have a much more frustrating time than taking lessons.

More generally, why is it a good thing to have a large amount of rules, none of which interact in intuitive ways?

I think deceptively complex is much better than complex.

I'd likely be a far better player for it. In fact, some of the very best are self-taught. I don't know about you but I like learning. I like having something new thrown at me and then trying to learn it. I don't go online to read FAQs or guides. I simply play and learn from my mistakes. This is what I enjoy in games and part of that is that initial frustration but that goes for all challenges.

And I don't think it's a good idea to have unnecessary rules. That said, I'm sure my definition of necessary differs from your own. A ruleset should be as clean as possible. But still, chess versus checkers. All of the rules in chess are necessary in order to deliver the gameplay it is so famous for. Chess would not work with the same amount of rules as checkers. The same applies to video games. The Witcher 2 would not work with the same amount of rules as Mario. 

By all means, trim the fat. Just don't touch the meat. BioWare touched the meat.

In Exile wrote...

I really hate to beat  this horse, but do you think TW2 comes with a lot of rules?  It's quite basic in terms of how it operates, but quite complex in terms of how it plays.

The Witcher 2 is an action RPG. That said, it does still come with a lot more rules than say Mario.

Modifié par Marionetten, 30 mai 2011 - 11:21 .

[Melca36]

I never really played that many rpgs until Origins and I had NO trouble learning how to play.

When I play games...I start at normal and work my way up. I don't want things handed to me in games. I don't need game developers to make things easier for me.

As a society we have gotten lazier and its just sad to see it. 

Modifié par Melca36, 30 mai 2011 - 10:50 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Anyways why was your female friend playing games? Shouldn't she be in the kitchen making sandwiches or doing the dishes?

~Just kidding!

*runs away*



P.s. I don't actually feel that way about women in RL.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 mai 2011 - 11:07 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

First explain the controls yourself to her or ask her to read the manual, as every gamer should do when first starts gaming in learning how a game is played.

People keep saying this, but manuals are garbage. Even those fancy old school manuals that are pt on such a pedestal. You'd have to run simulations in excell just to plan out a character for the first time, even if the mechanics are clearly laid out. And while I'm sure some people love the idea of statistical analysis (I did research for so many years it was my bread & butter, and I loved it) that's not central to an RPG at all.

What games should have, instead, is an 'introductory' difficulty thats clearly laid out as such with detailed tutorials guiding a person through one sort of build, with explanations. Something interactive, and as hands-on as you get.

Nobody new to a game should need to or in most cases even bother to plan out their characters. The first playthrough generally entails learning the game experiencing it most of the time set to easier difficulty, the tweaking trying better builds comes after and not try to get the perfect build first time playing any games. In all cases the manual should be read if nothing else to learn the background story to the title as all manuals cover that and also the controls. The rest can skip.

And There's always the "Auto Level-up" button to deal with the so called "hard to understand" attributes, talents, and skills. Sigh. Maybe this can be improved up by adding it as an option to always auto level-up for new players. That way the game pretty much behaves like an adventure.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 mai 2011 - 11:24 .

[Dragoonlordz]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

First explain the controls yourself to her or ask her to read the manual, as every gamer should do when first starts gaming in learning how a game is played.

People keep saying this, but manuals are garbage. Even those fancy old school manuals that are pt on such a pedestal. You'd have to run simulations in excell just to plan out a character for the first time, even if the mechanics are clearly laid out. And while I'm sure some people love the idea of statistical analysis (I did research for so many years it was my bread & butter, and I loved it) that's not central to an RPG at all.

What games should have, instead, is an 'introductory' difficulty thats clearly laid out as such with detailed tutorials guiding a person through one sort of build, with explanations. Something interactive, and as hands-on as you get.

Nobody new to a game should need to or in most cases even bother to plan out their characters. The first playthrough generally entails learning the game experiencing it most of the time set to easier difficulty, the tweaking trying better builds comes after and not try to get the perfect build first time playing any games. In all cases the manual should be read if nothing else to learn the background story to the title as all manuals cover that and also the controls. The rest can skip.

And There's always the "Auto Level-up" button to deal with the so called "hard to understand" attributes, talents, and skills. Sigh. Maybe this can be improved up by adding it as an option set to on for new players. That way the game pretty much behaves like an adventure.

Like a quick start/play sort of menu item right at start menu, where everything is set to defaults only choose class and gender and thats all then throws you into the game. Tbh I don't think any of this stuff is needed, new gamers are not what an RPG should be about pulling in, it should at most if go down the route of Laidlaw be pulling in from other genres or already gamers. Even that I don't think was the right direction with DA franchise this early on given wasn't a failure to begin with or in decline based off reality not some peoples fears of what might happen.

[Tommy6860]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

shantisands wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Which reminds me, we should be able to outfit companions all at once like in Origins. I hate this switch them out stuff.

Agreed. We should have been able to access all their inventories at the Hawke Estate. We were able to do all their runes there, so made no sense we couldn't do inventory as well. And levelups if we wanted.

Signed.  This would be a logical thing.

The same goes for shopping. In DA:O the player's inventory and shop's inventory both had a simple dropdown list where you were able to select a companion to compare selected gear with. Of course that was "simplified". Why can't they just improve things instead of dumbing down every feature in the game?

I don't think DA:O's system worked like that, in fact, having that drop down list didn't fundtion much for anything at all in shop comparisons. If you were in a shop and looked at the shop's inventory, everything in your list is shown in common as "Party Inventory", no matter who you choose in the list. The only time the I had what you say work the way it does, is by going into the inventory on my own, then choosing my character or my companion. Then it only shows the different characteristics between inventory items in my backpack and what is used by my me or my companions.

Unless I am misunderstanding you, this is how I see it worked anyway.

I also actually think the system in DA2 works better because it works the way you describe above, except I don't like not having the item pics and the inability to use different outfits on my companions..

It worked like this: If you selected a companion from that list then hovering above an item got you a popup that showed how it effected that companion and what was currently equiped. Instead of keeping or improving that BW has chosen to remove it altogether for no reason at all. So you can now only compare stuff when the companion is in your party by clicking her or his avatar. That's not very convenient, is it?

Ahh, see you made it sound as if what the shop offers did this. Yes, witrhin your own inventory, something you ahve equipped and soemthing in your "own" inventory relflects that. But you entioned when in a "shop", I got the impression from you that hshop items reflect that, in which they don't. In DA2, this actually reflects from shop itmes to you items that are equipped.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Tommy6860 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

shantisands wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Which reminds me, we should be able to outfit companions all at once like in Origins. I hate this switch them out stuff.

Agreed. We should have been able to access all their inventories at the Hawke Estate. We were able to do all their runes there, so made no sense we couldn't do inventory as well. And levelups if we wanted.

Signed.  This would be a logical thing.

The same goes for shopping. In DA:O the player's inventory and shop's inventory both had a simple dropdown list where you were able to select a companion to compare selected gear with. Of course that was "simplified". Why can't they just improve things instead of dumbing down every feature in the game?

I don't think DA:O's system worked like that, in fact, having that drop down list didn't fundtion much for anything at all in shop comparisons. If you were in a shop and looked at the shop's inventory, everything in your list is shown in common as "Party Inventory", no matter who you choose in the list. The only time the I had what you say work the way it does, is by going into the inventory on my own, then choosing my character or my companion. Then it only shows the different characteristics between inventory items in my backpack and what is used by my me or my companions.

Unless I am misunderstanding you, this is how I see it worked anyway.

I also actually think the system in DA2 works better because it works the way you describe above, except I don't like not having the item pics and the inability to use different outfits on my companions..

It worked like this: If you selected a companion from that list then hovering above an item got you a popup that showed how it effected that companion and what was currently equiped. Instead of keeping or improving that BW has chosen to remove it altogether for no reason at all. So you can now only compare stuff when the companion is in your party by clicking her or his avatar. That's not very convenient, is it?

Ahh, see you made it sound as if what the shop offers did this. Yes, witrhin your own inventory, something you ahve equipped and soemthing in your "own" inventory relflects that. But you entioned when in a "shop", I got the impression from you that hshop items reflect that, in which they don't. In DA2, this actually reflects from shop itmes to you items that are equipped.

The same goes for the shop's inventory in DA:O. It works in both the left and right pane. Really. Come to think of it, it also worked with storage chests (like the one in the camp).

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 mai 2011 - 11:43 .

[Tommy6860]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

shantisands wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Which reminds me, we should be able to outfit companions all at once like in Origins. I hate this switch them out stuff.

Agreed. We should have been able to access all their inventories at the Hawke Estate. We were able to do all their runes there, so made no sense we couldn't do inventory as well. And levelups if we wanted.

Signed.  This would be a logical thing.

The same goes for shopping. In DA:O the player's inventory and shop's inventory both had a simple dropdown list where you were able to select a companion to compare selected gear with. Of course that was "simplified". Why can't they just improve things instead of dumbing down every feature in the game?

I don't think DA:O's system worked like that, in fact, having that drop down list didn't fundtion much for anything at all in shop comparisons. If you were in a shop and looked at the shop's inventory, everything in your list is shown in common as "Party Inventory", no matter who you choose in the list. The only time the I had what you say work the way it does, is by going into the inventory on my own, then choosing my character or my companion. Then it only shows the different characteristics between inventory items in my backpack and what is used by my me or my companions.

Unless I am misunderstanding you, this is how I see it worked anyway.

I also actually think the system in DA2 works better because it works the way you describe above, except I don't like not having the item pics and the inability to use different outfits on my companions..

It worked like this: If you selected a companion from that list then hovering above an item got you a popup that showed how it effected that companion and what was currently equiped. Instead of keeping or improving that BW has chosen to remove it altogether for no reason at all. So you can now only compare stuff when the companion is in your party by clicking her or his avatar. That's not very convenient, is it?

Ahh, see you made it sound as if what the shop offers did this. Yes, witrhin your own inventory, something you ahve equipped and soemthing in your "own" inventory relflects that. But you entioned when in a "shop", I got the impression from you that hshop items reflect that, in which they don't. In DA2, this actually reflects from shop itmes to you items that are equipped.

The same goes for the shop's inventory in DA:O. It works in both the left and right pane. Really. Come to think of it, it also worked in storage chests.

All I can suggest is to put in DA:O and see for yourself. I just did, and shop items do not show shop to inventory, or even equipped item comparisons. I gave a link to a video in your profile showing this where Alistair was choen in the drop-down list.. The only thing that show is the comparison to what's equipped and what is already in my inventory when I hover over a particular item.

EDIT: Never mind, you are correct. DUH I was hovering over my items only

Modifié par Tommy6860, 30 mai 2011 - 11:45 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ghehe. Never mind. It can happen. I just started DA2 myself to see how things worked there too.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 mai 2011 - 11:48 .

[Morroian]

In Exile wrote...

Why do you think accesiblity means pandering? I disliked RPGs with a passion until KoTOR because they just came with a tome and threw you at the game, either expecting you to read the manual and run simulations, or expecting that you had prior experience with D&D.

Yet at this point RPGs are by far my favourite genre. Did KoTOR 'pander' to me? 

Funny my experience is exactly the same.

[fightright2]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I would like a system in which the game asks you if you were a new player unfamiliar with RPGs or the series. In that case it invokes a number of in-game messages to explain the background or game mechanics more thoroughly. That way character creation could be at the start of the game. The way it is implemented now is annoying for people like me who are already familiar with the game.

I was just thinking of that. Well, where at the beginning where you select New Game it prompts you as to whether you are new to DA.

If they select 'yes', it will start the game with a brief narrated backstory cutscene. This could serve as to what the new player may feel they need to know and understand in order to be generally caught up for their first experience. So they could start off with some kind of reference under their belt. George Lucas did that with his prologue for Star Wars, only the new players will get imagery with narration with it.

I think with this they could have NPC's in the game give extra dialogue on things pertaining to stuff through their opinion or fears like how Justice gave his insight of the demons in the Fade.

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Now I do like the idea of the optimize option for deeper customization. This would give those of us that love to tweak each intricate detail of each character and inventory.

I do like the G.O.A.T. system idea, especially the one like in the ES:Morrowind. I found it rather neat to know what kind of person I would have turned out to be based on my personal answers to questions pertaining in the game. I remember choosing one of three chores my father gives me: 1) gathering herbs for my mother who is making dinner 2) work with my father in the forge casting iron for a new plow, or 3) catch fish with string and net. By the questions you were actually deciding your class. (My favorite question was the one pertaining to the sweetroll.

When it comes to RPGs I think developers should never shy away from a little more hard work of giving the player options. Don't take things away to make things easier, rather, just make it optionable. No matter what, when it comes to RPGs, you can't go wrong with more options.

I really liked this topic. Thanks OP. Although I know BW is really shooting for gaining gamers that are not of the RPG genre, I know your post on a non-gamer is also valuable to them as well since it leads to these great discussions for their feedback/suggestions.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

They could have had a video and speech at the beginning like they did woth Origins, talking about your specific family, beyond what Varrics lines said about the blight. That really should have been before the Varric fantasy combat.