116 réponses à ce sujet

[boohead]

I understand they are do-able/playable....

However going dual weild nets you 2-3x the damage, Any spec of rogue will do 4x the dmg and more survivability due to dex, and lets not even get into mages, and all have more CC/buffs.


Is there any mod that fixes this or any plans to patch the entire useless talent tree? Atleast bows got a dex fix and are now usefull, 2h warr still remains useless.


Maybe allow momentum to be used w/ 2h? Even then it would be 1/2 the dmg of any other melee class.

[Kolaris8472]

But they do more damage to Golems! And Heavy Armor....sometimes...



/sarcasm

[Hathur]

I've beaten the game using a 2h warrior and dual wield warrior.. both feel very powerful.. and in fact the 2handed did much better vs bosses cus he punches through heavy armor like butter.



2handed is a lot easier to build too.. you can quite literally pump nothing but Strength for 20+ levels and you make an insanely god like power hitter that never misses.



In contrast, my dual wield has to split Strength, Dexterity and a bit into willpower to have enough energy to use all their talents (2 hander is more stamina efficient... I.e. for 50 stamina I can do Massive strike and land a hit for 120+ damage.. whereas something like Flurry costs about the same and will do a total of around 100 damage).



That said, both are very good.. dual wielding is a lot easier early on, but 2hander shines after level 14.... and nothing compares to the destructive power of a 2hander vs dragons and other heavily armored enemies.

[Schyzm]

2h being useless dovetails into the min/max dps build for rogues and the uselessness of activated abilities. +weapon damage is tons more useful to high speed dual weilders than 2h warriors, AND it doesn't count at all on activated abilities. so it makes sense that both activated abilities and 2hers would be similarly useless.

[brennonmurphy]

2h seems to suffer from really boring abilities too, kind of compounded by how stamina works, how much stamina most of the 2h things costs, and just general attack speed and hit rate. I too wish it was a bit more exciting of a choice

[Hathur]

As far as the most fun melee tree to use... it's sword n shield... It never gets old using Shield Bash and Overpower to knock enemies on their back... plus Assault and Shield Pummel have satisfying animations to watch too.

[boohead]

Hathur wrote...

I've beaten the game using a 2h warrior and dual wield warrior.. both feel very powerful.. and in fact the 2handed did much better vs bosses cus he punches through heavy armor like butter.

2handed is a lot easier to build too.. you can quite literally pump nothing but Strength for 20+ levels and you make an insanely god like power hitter that never misses.

In contrast, my dual wield has to split Strength, Dexterity and a bit into willpower to have enough energy to use all their talents (2 hander is more stamina efficient... I.e. for 50 stamina I can do Massive strike and land a hit for 120+ damage.. whereas something like Flurry costs about the same and will do a total of around 100 damage).

That said, both are very good.. dual wielding is a lot easier early on, but 2hander shines after level 14.... and nothing compares to the destructive power of a 2hander vs dragons and other heavily armored enemies.

i've beaten it with both too, DW does ALOT more dmg, an insane amount more.


By the time i do one 70 damage swing, my dw warrior does 3-4 40 dmg swings and each have a higher chance to crit + bleed + more rune dmg due to double swinging...not to mention aoe.

It results in EASILY 2-3x the DPS (damage per second)


thats a HUGE margin. 2h dps teeters next to sword and board warriors, who can atleast tank/cc.

[Beowulf1990]

Hathur wrote...

I've beaten the game using a 2h warrior and dual wield warrior.. both feel very powerful.. and in fact the 2handed did much better vs bosses cus he punches through heavy armor like butter.

2handed is a lot easier to build too.. you can quite literally pump nothing but Strength for 20+ levels and you make an insanely god like power hitter that never misses.

In contrast, my dual wield has to split Strength, Dexterity and a bit into willpower to have enough energy to use all their talents (2 hander is more stamina efficient... I.e. for 50 stamina I can do Massive strike and land a hit for 120+ damage.. whereas something like Flurry costs about the same and will do a total of around 100 damage).

That said, both are very good.. dual wielding is a lot easier early on, but 2hander shines after level 14.... and nothing compares to the destructive power of a 2hander vs dragons and other heavily armored enemies.

+1

[boohead]

i know it may feel powerful, but i am not dicussing Opinions, so leave that out of this.


The dps is factually a fraction of DW warr and rogues. DPS can be calculated. 2h wep swing time is simply WAY too long.

Modifié par boohead, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:24 .

[IndomitusRex]

I did my first (and only complete) play-through as a 2-hander wielding Dwarf Noble Warrior, and I quite enjoyed it. I pretty much just poured points into Strength (pretty sure I ended up with nearly 70 Strength). I went Berserker/Reaver, and full 2-hander talents, full Powerful line of Warrior talents, and up to Taunt in the other Warrior talent line.



Two-hand sweep is still one of my favourite abilities in the game. Being able to stun and nail (for around 150 damage, towards the end of the game) a huge chunk of the enemies on screen was very satisfying.



I think perhaps the greatest strength of the 2-hander Warrior is Indomitable, however, as being immune to stuns etc. is very clutch on a lot of the more challenging fights. My character tanked more effectively than Alistair on a lot of fights.



I dunno, maybe it's just lack of experience with other play styles, but I liked 2-handers.

[Smerbev]

You're simply trying to judge it on DPS which in no way dictates whether a class is useless. I've got a 2-hander, sword for standard and a maul for heavily armoured foes, and the guy is equal with Morrigan for damage and kills. He can't be knocked over, stuns regularly, has knock down abilities, reduces enemy armour and then has some extra damage abilities. Can it compare to the dps potential of a dw? No and if you're trying to use it that way then you need to change your tactic or sit around and be frustrated.

[addiction21]

Not useless but far from being the most usefull.

Also I see people throwing a lot of numbers around but no combat log screen shots... to ummmm..... ****!   *slowly backs out of the thread*

Modifié par addiction21, 20 novembre 2009 - 03:29 .

[Ultrazennn]

boohead wrote...

i know it may feel powerful, but i am not dicussing Opinions, so leave that out of this.


The dps is factually a fraction of DW warr and rogues. DPS can be calculated. 2h wep swing time is simply WAY too long.

It's the same problem archery suffers from.  The attack rate is laughably slow considering how much damage you do per hit.

1.  Runes don't scale with weapon speed.  This is one of the telling signs as to how shallow and kind of hodge podge the combat system in general is.  Want to see really insane DPS?  Equip 2 daggers that each have 2 x 10 damage on them.  The funny thing about this, is even if you are full 2 hand speced, go throw 2 daggers on that have runes in them, and stand behind a mob.  Even completely unspeced for it you will triple your DPS.  Given the animation speed, 2h should be hitting for about 150 a swing on a high level character.

2.  Suffers the same problem with every other spec in the game other than magic, and that's the general uselessness of most abilities.  On most classes, using things like flurry etc will actually *cost* you DPS due to the animation speed.  Standing behind a mob and auto attacking is sadly the highest DPS you can do lol.  Taking time out to do anything other than auto attack will lose you DPS, it's not even worth casting a debuff on a mob, as you kill it quicker if you don't bother to interrupt your auto attack.

Archery and 2h are both pretty laughable specs at this point, and need a serious re-work.  Other than roleplaying reasons, and in the case of archery some cheese/exploit factors.

/shrug pretty easily fixed, for both of them.

1.  Up the attack speed a bit.

2.  Make runes scale with weapon speed.  If we use a 1 hand sword as a baseline, a rune that says +10 on it should really be half that on a dagger, and double that on a 2h.  That's of course a rough estimate, and it would be fairly easy to figure out a formula for it if I wasn't lazy

3.  Lower the stamina usage across the board on all things melee and archery related, and make them *increase* your DPS when you use them, not lower it.

That's where I'd start in a mod, one of these days lol.

[GideonGrey]

Hmmm archery useless? My Arrow of Slaying and Crit Shot say otherwise on my archer. No on else in my party can one shot mobs like my Archer. Or quite frankly get a Shatter as consistantly with no mana use.

[Ghandorian]

I love my 2h Warrior/Champion. Stargfang decked out with runes is insanely powerful. Combine the paralyze rune with pommel strike and Emissaries drop like genlocks.

[Aussenseiter]

I would definitely agree that 2 handed really needs some work... I've made my second character a dual wielding rogue and she is virtually unstoppable even without using backstabbing at all.

My 2 handed fighter never even seemed half this powerful.

Momentum is simply much better than than any of the other talents you can get for dealing damage. Maybe an attack speed buff on powerful swings is all that is really needed to make the two builds more equal?

[Dermain]

Two-handed warriors are overpowered....Indomitable anyone? The sustained ability that makes it impossible for you to be stunned or knocked down?



Add in haste, berserk, rally, powerful swings, stunning blows, and any other attack buff that I can not remember the name of at the moment and you should be doing around 100 damage if not more.

[Grovermancer]

Just finished a Dwarf Berserker, and he did just fine.  Didn't even dump everything into Strength, either. (plenty in Con, some into Dex and Will)  He hits hard.  (slight spoiler?)

His one attack did more dmg than all of  Allister's per "round;" his one swing did serious dmg to every enemy he faced, and did more dmg than Wynn's ice attacks, which I had her geared for.  (would give specific w/ combat log, but we're not allowed to see that info --  but towards end, I never hit lower than 90, even on fully resistent bosses; normally, adding Rune and item damage, average seemed around 130 dmg)

And he had high HP and good armor and defense.  ("Indomitable" takes away some defense, BUT makes you invulnerable to stun/knockdown)  He could wade into a mob, or stand in front of a boss and just beat them down.


I LOVED my 2-Hander.  Favorite build so far.  It's like playing as the Hulk.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 20 novembre 2009 - 05:35 .

[I Valente I]

I'm more than enjoying my 2-handed dwarf warrior, he's a beast. Honestly, because something isn't the best or give out the best DPS doesn't make it useless. For a powergamer, maybe fun or anythings isn't so important but using the word USELESS is exagerrating, seeing as a 2h warrior can do some massive damage.



Have you considered then that perhaps it is dual wielding that is overpowered? Regardless, there is more to the game than dps, and I disagree that the 2-handed or Archery schools are useless or gimped. I'm playing through with a pure rogue, single wielding, he's fantastic, the most fun I've had so far.

[Tyrax Lightning]

One thing the devs shoulda done with 2Hers was to have it (& maybe all weapons) swing faster with higher Str. I think it makes sense, seems how if ya got more muscle, you not only handle & control the bulk of the weapon better, but also impart more force on the swing which should make it accelerate faster than a less muscular person could manage. A 90 Str warrior should not still be swinging a 2H as slowly as a 30 Str Warrior. It makes no sense.



Agree or disagree?

[Grovermancer]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

One thing the devs shoulda done with 2Hers was to have it (& maybe all weapons) swing faster with higher Str. I think it makes sense, seems how if ya got more muscle, you not only handle & control the bulk of the weapon better, but also impart more force on the swing which should make it accelerate faster than a less muscular person could manage. A 90 Str warrior should not still be swinging a 2H as slowly as a 30 Str Warrior. It makes no sense.

Agree or disagree?

Agree.

[Lughsan35]

Ultrazennn wrote...

boohead wrote...

i know it may feel powerful, but i am not dicussing Opinions, so leave that out of this.


The dps is factually a fraction of DW warr and rogues. DPS can be calculated. 2h wep swing time is simply WAY too long.

It's the same problem archery suffers from.  The attack rate is laughably slow considering how much damage you do per hit.

1.  Runes don't scale with weapon speed.  This is one of the telling signs as to how shallow and kind of hodge podge the combat system in general is.  Want to see really insane DPS?  Equip 2 daggers that each have 2 x 10 damage on them.  The funny thing about this, is even if you are full 2 hand speced, go throw 2 daggers on that have runes in them, and stand behind a mob.  Even completely unspeced for it you will triple your DPS.  Given the animation speed, 2h should be hitting for about 150 a swing on a high level character.

2.  Suffers the same problem with every other spec in the game other than magic, and that's the general uselessness of most abilities.  On most classes, using things like flurry etc will actually *cost* you DPS due to the animation speed.  Standing behind a mob and auto attacking is sadly the highest DPS you can do lol.  Taking time out to do anything other than auto attack will lose you DPS, it's not even worth casting a debuff on a mob, as you kill it quicker if you don't bother to interrupt your auto attack.

Archery and 2h are both pretty laughable specs at this point, and need a serious re-work.  Other than roleplaying reasons, and in the case of archery some cheese/exploit factors.

/shrug pretty easily fixed, for both of them.

1.  Up the attack speed a bit.

2.  Make runes scale with weapon speed.  If we use a 1 hand sword as a baseline, a rune that says +10 on it should really be half that on a dagger, and double that on a 2h.  That's of course a rough estimate, and it would be fairly easy to figure out a formula for it if I wasn't lazy

3.  Lower the stamina usage across the board on all things melee and archery related, and make them *increase* your DPS when you use them, not lower it.

That's where I'd start in a mod, one of these days lol.

Um archery is just fine if you stay in Light armor...

[Naminator236]

GideonGrey wrote...

Hmmm archery useless? My Arrow of Slaying and Crit Shot say otherwise on my archer. No on else in my party can one shot mobs like my Archer. Or quite frankly get a Shatter as consistantly with no mana use.

LOL that skill has a 60 second recharge, with insane stamina cost, a chance to miss and only works efectively on monsters lower level than you. You can keep your archer. My DW warriror(the ONLY valiable spec for a DPS warrior) can destroy a horde of enemies in those 60 seconds while you tickle the enemy with your bow, waiting for for Arrow of Slaying to recharge.

[menasure]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

One thing the devs shoulda done with 2Hers was to have it (& maybe all weapons) swing faster with higher Str. I think it makes sense, seems how if ya got more muscle, you not only handle & control the bulk of the weapon better, but also impart more force on the swing which should make it accelerate faster than a less muscular person could manage. A 90 Str warrior should not still be swinging a 2H as slowly as a 30 Str Warrior. It makes no sense.

Agree or disagree?

have you ever seen a strong man competition? pure strength muscles are not build for speed. sure it will help in real life to have more muscles anyway but you will not see a body builder beating track records against slimmer build sprinters for example and i figure for game balance reasons the speed part is entirely in the dex stat.

so yes once you getting those 3th and 4th skills in the 2H skill trees you really are starting to feel like you have your own personal ogre in game, a sluggish but pure damage beast with axe option for general use and hammer for armor demolition works and i love it. i really can not wait for sten to get his destruction skill now!

Modifié par menasure, 20 novembre 2009 - 07:13 .

[code2501]

2hander needs another PBAE ability IMO. The slow attacks really make this skillset suffer against zergs where your target is often dead before your blow connects.