116 réponses à ce sujet

[F-C]

2hd in action

[Kolaris8472]

The Rune problem I agree with. The other issue I have is that the Enhancements on 2-handers rarely compare to what you can get with an off-hand weapon (so 2 sets of enhancements) or a Shield (again 2 sets, Shields often have far better bonuses than weapons).



Would be nice if the 2-hander Enhancements took into account what they're competing with.

[Bryzon]

I played through as a 2hd dwarf noble warrior just fine. If you're going 2hd, just don't expect to be the main tank. You'll still want a sword/board tank, but as far as dps, its fun to go 2hd. The great thing about 2hd is you're not going to pull as much threat as dual wielding or a mage. The strikes are slow, but hit hard.



Here's how I built mine:



The best race for this would be dwarf noble, but human noble would work as well. Focus only on STR and getting some medium armor that wont weigh you down too much. At level one, got for Pommel Strike and Power, then at two get might blow. Continue focus on 2hd abilities and you'll be dishing out some serious dps without pulling agro off your main tank, who will most likely be Alistair. Ignore dual wield and archery talents, they are useless to a 2hd fighter.



When you can finally pick a specialty, go with Berserker. In battle, wait until the main tank has grabbed agro, this will take some patience. You can even play this 2hd build as a secondary tank to pull off the enemy if the main tank is about to die, just don't use threaten full time.



If you plan everything carefully, 2h warriors are not useless, just different. They can't be your main tank, but they can certainly be your main hand to hand damage dealer. If you do this with Sten or Oghren, you'll find they're more useful too. Once I get Oghren, he never leaves my group, he's too valuable as a dps and backup tank.

[code2501]

Myrkale wrote...

Two-handed warriors are overpowered....Indomitable anyone? The sustained ability that makes it impossible for you to be stunned or knocked down?

Shield wall also makes you imune to KD, but with a bonus to armor, defense and missile defense rather than just stun immunity.
Then consider that the on top of greater defense and missile imunity from your board, your one hander sword hits twice for every two hander blow giving you 2x enchantment bonuses from your weapon.

Might seem trivial, but with +10darkspawn runes and +5 elemental runes on a 3 slot sword the one hander comes awfully close to a 2 hander dps wise, but with way more defense.

Modifié par code2501, 20 novembre 2009 - 07:45 .

[rumination888]

I found a pure strength 2H warrior to do more DPS than a minimum dex/rest into strength DW warrior.
My 2H warrior also fared better on nightmare than my DWer.
Being stunned or knocked down without the ability to pop a pot is what ALWAYS kills my DWer(no points into constitution does that on nightmare, but i wanted to min/max damage output), not to mention that you also deal no damage while stunned/KDed.

Damage bonuses giving a bigger advantage to faster weapons is nice and all, but people forget the opposite holds true.
Damage reduction(physical reduction in this game is based on an integer and not a percentage) gives a bigger disadvantage to faster weapons.

Then theres also the problem of DW requiring you to spend close to 20 points into dexterity.
While another 20% chance to avoid damage is nice for survivability, it doesn't add to melee damage at all.
A pure strength 2H warrior doesn't suffer from this problem. All of their points goes into strength, and because of a 2-handers strength modifier, the stat is even more effective for them.

Theres also the problem with Haste and Momentum not stacking.
Haste may not affect DWers... but it most certainly affects 2Hers.

Modifié par rumination888, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:15 .

[Altharas]

All the melee DPS in the game, with exception to 2handers can't effectively fight dragons. For one, Indomitable > Knockback = more uptime and as a result, more deeps. And two, armour pen for the whole party anyone?

While dualwield might be better on the small trashy fights, when it comes to the bigger fights nothing compares to the staying power and group contribution that a 2hander brings

And then there's mages

...

Modifié par Altharas, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:25 .

[Bonecrusherr]

Ultrazennn wrote...

It's the same problem archery suffers from.  The attack rate is laughably slow considering how much damage you do per hit.

1.  Runes don't scale with weapon speed.  This is one of the telling signs as to how shallow and kind of hodge podge the combat system in general is.  Want to see really insane DPS?  Equip 2 daggers that each have 2 x 10 damage on them.  The funny thing about this, is even if you are full 2 hand speced, go throw 2 daggers on that have runes in them, and stand behind a mob.  Even completely unspeced for it you will triple your DPS.  Given the animation speed, 2h should be hitting for about 150 a swing on a high level character.

2.  Suffers the same problem with every other spec in the game other than magic, and that's the general uselessness of most abilities.  On most classes, using things like flurry etc will actually *cost* you DPS due to the animation speed.  Standing behind a mob and auto attacking is sadly the highest DPS you can do lol.  Taking time out to do anything other than auto attack will lose you DPS, it's not even worth casting a debuff on a mob, as you kill it quicker if you don't bother to interrupt your auto attack.

Archery and 2h are both pretty laughable specs at this point, and need a serious re-work.  Other than roleplaying reasons, and in the case of archery some cheese/exploit factors.

/shrug pretty easily fixed, for both of them.

1.  Up the attack speed a bit.

2.  Make runes scale with weapon speed.  If we use a 1 hand sword as a baseline, a rune that says +10 on it should really be half that on a dagger, and double that on a 2h.  That's of course a rough estimate, and it would be fairly easy to figure out a formula for it if I wasn't lazy

3.  Lower the stamina usage across the board on all things melee and archery related, and make them *increase* your DPS when you use them, not lower it.

That's where I'd start in a mod, one of these days lol.

agree to all above.

Myrkale wrote...

Two-handed warriors are overpowered....Indomitable anyone? The sustained ability that makes it impossible for you to be stunned or knocked down?

You tell this just for stun/knocked down resistance? hah, that's ironic.

the two handed warrior may not do damage, but if it is resistant to stun an knocked down, so it is overpowered

shield/1h warriors have shield bonuses that also have resistance for stun, knocked down, arrows any many other thing.
other than that, it has more armor bonus, faster attack speed, more damage (with rune bonuses)...

2h warriors are so slow they don't forgive misses. You can't do special attacks that you counted as "overpowereness" because it will use one of your attack chances. while you play 2h warriors you will count your every attack, and will be sorry if you make any special attack

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

One thing the devs shoulda done with 2Hers was to have it (& maybe all weapons) swing faster with higher Str. I think it makes sense, seems how if ya got more muscle, you not only handle & control the bulk of the weapon better, but also impart more force on the swing which should make it accelerate faster than a less muscular person could manage. A 90 Str warrior should not still be swinging a 2H as slowly as a 30 Str Warrior. It makes no sense.

Agree or disagree?

agree

Modifié par Bonecrusherr, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:53 .

[vhatever]

While it's true runes are better in faster weapons, the 2hd wapons have weapons that gain the greatest bonus from str. I think mauls get something like 125% of your str. And unlike runes, that damage WILL show up in your special attacks.

[Wintermist]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

One thing the devs shoulda done with 2Hers was to have it (& maybe all weapons) swing faster with higher Str. I think it makes sense, seems how if ya got more muscle, you not only handle & control the bulk of the weapon better, but also impart more force on the swing which should make it accelerate faster than a less muscular person could manage. A 90 Str warrior should not still be swinging a 2H as slowly as a 30 Str Warrior. It makes no sense.

Agree or disagree?

I do agree with this.

[vhatever]

Wintermist wrote...

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

One thing the devs shoulda done with 2Hers was to have it (& maybe all weapons) swing faster with higher Str. I think it makes sense, seems how if ya got more muscle, you not only handle & control the bulk of the weapon better, but also impart more force on the swing which should make it accelerate faster than a less muscular person could manage. A 90 Str warrior should not still be swinging a 2H as slowly as a 30 Str Warrior. It makes no sense.

Agree or disagree?

I do agree with this.

I don't. With two handers, a trained fighter has to carry the momentum of his swings into his next swing. A 90 str fighter is going to need all that 90 str to control that momentum.

[Wintermist]

vhatever wrote...

Wintermist wrote...

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

One thing the devs shoulda done with 2Hers was to have it (& maybe all weapons) swing faster with higher Str. I think it makes sense, seems how if ya got more muscle, you not only handle & control the bulk of the weapon better, but also impart more force on the swing which should make it accelerate faster than a less muscular person could manage. A 90 Str warrior should not still be swinging a 2H as slowly as a 30 Str Warrior. It makes no sense.

Agree or disagree?

I do agree with this.

I don't. With two handers, a trained fighter has to carry the momentum of his swings into his next swing. A 90 str fighter is going to need all that 90 str to control that momentum.

The same thing can be said about weaker characters, no? And yet, they swing the same speed.

[DragonRageGT]

Ghandorian wrote...

I love my 2h Warrior/Champion. Stargfang decked out with runes is insanely powerful. Combine the paralyze rune with pommel strike and Emissaries drop like genlocks.

Same here!!!

I just add Berserker on him first cuz after all, it adds more Rage to him! (and while I love having rogues/spell casters in my party, I hate playing them and in most games I go for 2-handed swords anyway. (3rd run here with it, now in Nightmare)

Well, Master Staff Fighting is fun in Risen (while we can still forge the best 2 hander sword in it) and my Arcane Archer lived for some 5 years in Middle Earth thanks to NWN's amazing community and its Permanent Worlds.. but those are kind.. 2 handed weapons too! =)

[vhatever]

RageGT wrote...

Ghandorian wrote...

I love my 2h Warrior/Champion. Stargfang decked out with runes is insanely powerful. Combine the paralyze rune with pommel strike and Emissaries drop like genlocks.

Same here!!!

I just add Berserker on him first cuz after all, it adds more Rage to him! (and while I love having rogues/spell casters in my party, I hate playing them and in most games I go for 2-handed swords anyway. (3rd run here with it, now in Nightmare)

Well, Master Staff Fighting is fun in Risen (while we can still forge the best 2 hander sword in it) and my Arcane Archer lived for some 5 years in Middle Earth thanks to NWN's amazing community and its Permanent Worlds.. but those are kind.. 2 handed weapons too! =)

Str =/= speed. I can lift a 5 pound dumbell just as fast world champion bidybuilder. Our speed will be close to the same thing. You need a certain amount of strength to pull that off. A 40 pound dumbell and he would embarrass me. If you satisfy the STR reqht e weapon would be like the 5 pound dumbell.

[Sarevok Anchev]

In my experience you shouldnt play a 2h Warrior with only 1 mage as support on Nightmare...

Even when you have the best armor and 500 HP you will get screwed by packs and archers if you dont plan well enough.

Indomitable is nice, but its strange, that i can resist a Ogre-Shouldertackle, but a Mabari can Overwhelm me, lol.



And also 2h Weapon Style seems to be bugged, as the Passive-Stun talent doesnt work and Haste or Precise Strike wont effect the slow Lobbing Animation of the 2h-Style.



Still. i loved combinations of Sweep-Mighty-Crit-Pommel-Fear . That really looked like real fighting^^

[Reizarvg]

Ultrazennn wrote...

boohead wrote...

i know it may feel powerful, but i am not dicussing Opinions, so leave that out of this.


The dps is factually a fraction of DW warr and rogues. DPS can be calculated. 2h wep swing time is simply WAY too long.

It's the same problem archery suffers from.  The attack rate is laughably slow considering how much damage you do per hit.

1.  Runes don't scale with weapon speed.  This is one of the telling signs as to how shallow and kind of hodge podge the combat system in general is.  Want to see really insane DPS?  Equip 2 daggers that each have 2 x 10 damage on them.  The funny thing about this, is even if you are full 2 hand speced, go throw 2 daggers on that have runes in them, and stand behind a mob.  Even completely unspeced for it you will triple your DPS.  Given the animation speed, 2h should be hitting for about 150 a swing on a high level character.

2.  Suffers the same problem with every other spec in the game other than magic, and that's the general uselessness of most abilities.  On most classes, using things like flurry etc will actually *cost* you DPS due to the animation speed.  Standing behind a mob and auto attacking is sadly the highest DPS you can do lol.  Taking time out to do anything other than auto attack will lose you DPS, it's not even worth casting a debuff on a mob, as you kill it quicker if you don't bother to interrupt your auto attack.

Archery and 2h are both pretty laughable specs at this point, and need a serious re-work.  Other than roleplaying reasons, and in the case of archery some cheese/exploit factors.

/shrug pretty easily fixed, for both of them.

1.  Up the attack speed a bit.

2.  Make runes scale with weapon speed.  If we use a 1 hand sword as a baseline, a rune that says +10 on it should really be half that on a dagger, and double that on a 2h.  That's of course a rough estimate, and it would be fairly easy to figure out a formula for it if I wasn't lazy

3.  Lower the stamina usage across the board on all things melee and archery related, and make them *increase* your DPS when you use them, not lower it.

That's where I'd start in a mod, one of these days lol.

Does it really matter? Honestly? Yes, dual weapon has more DPS, and yes, auto attacking will keep that at maximum, but really, it's a single player RPG, it doesn't matter this much. I use 2 handed weapons because it feels cool. That's it, that's the only reason. It really isn't worth it to focus so much on making the most efficient build possible.

[izamere]

i like where you are going with this id propose something more radical but on top of runes scaling with 2h weapons i think it would be nice to have

1. 2 hand coefficients should be raised by 50%. minimum. think about it. if your talking about "Strength" then a 2 hander should be double what a 1 hander is for its weapon category.... if you disagree go look up "dane axe" and read about what 2 handers do. physics is a powerful thing.

2. i would like a "second wind" ability something like "-10% fatigue and regain 50% stamina over 10 seconds"

3. Change Death blow to restore stamina on strikes, because lets face it we never deal a killing blow, in that 3 second time frame its always someone else. more importantly against long boss fights this ability actually becomes useful.

4. make all abilities independent of the auto attack timer this not only solves the swing reset problem, we also get a bit of "on call" burst damage

5. make sunder armor destroyer and have destroyer do something like The stamina and fatigue cost to sustain skills is halved.



anyway thats my thoughts with the 2 hander on things i really feel need addressing.

[Grovermancer]

menasure wrote...


have you ever seen a strong man
competition? pure strength muscles are not build for speed. sure it
will help in real life to have more muscles anyway but you will not see
a body builder beating track records against slimmer build sprinters
for example and i figure for game balance reasons the speed part is
entirely in the dex stat.

so yes once you getting those 3th and
4th skills in the 2H skill trees you really are starting to feel like
you have your own personal ogre in game, a sluggish but pure damage
beast with axe option for general use and hammer for armor demolition
works and i love it. i really can not wait for sten to get his
destruction skill now! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]

AND...

vhatever wrote...



Str =/= speed. I can lift a 5 pound dumbell just as fast world champion bidybuilder. Our speed will be close to the same thing. You need a certain amount of strength to pull that off. A 40 pound dumbell and he would embarrass me. If you satisfy the STR reqht e weapon would be like the 5 pound dumbell.

This is totally, utterly wrong.


Re: First quote -- 
this is wrong (as explained below).  But bodybuilders are not power athletes.  (and on 'strongman' contests, if a bodybuilder enters, he gets creamed, though the only ones who even dare to enter also usually did a lot of powerlifting in their past)

You might think those guys are slow, lumbering behemoths, but that's an issue of activity specificity; they have not trained for sprinting.  In a combative distance range of movements (ie, what we're talking about here -- not sprinting), those guys are explosive as hell!  Conversely, look at every sprinter since Ben Johnson.  Those guys are stacked.  Because when properly trained for specific, explosive, power activities, muscle is fast.  (people need to stop confusing "power athlete" with "bodybuilder"   Bodybuilder are only about looks.  Power athletes are about function)

Bodybuilder = looks/appearance
Bodybuilder =/= strength (relatively speaking, regarding their appearance, or in comparison to power athletes)
Bodybuilder =/= speed

Power athlete = power (power = "applied strength," like strongman, MMA, or swinging a Chasind Maul)
Power athlete = speed (activity specific)
Power athlete = endurance (activity specific)


Re: Both quotes --
Three people could officially 'lift' a weight; one barely gets it up, a stronger one could umpf it up faster than that, but an even stronger athlete can whip it up seemingly w/o effort.  (yet they all 3 officially lifted it, they're not equally as strong, nor as fast)

Powerlifters and power athletes are actually faster at their motions, even if they visually don't appear to be (because they're throwing around 500lbs).  Take away the weight, and you'll see they can move.
Most of their power is generated fast-twitch based fiber actions.

If you're going to use real-life analogies, then higher strength undoubtedly would mean a faster and faster swing.  This isn't even in question.

Power athletes are also speed athletes, and the best in the world do all sorts of explosive and speed training in conjunction w/ strength training, because the two go hand in hand.


And so, as your DA strength goes up, (especially for 2-H since all their strength is focused on one heavy weapon), then the speed should also go up, just like in real life.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:53 .

[menasure]

@ grovermancer: i'm fine with the idea of strength adding some speed itself but even in real life these effects exist within limits. you can look at strength being power muscles while speed muscles are the dex for the game because what is asked for is nothing less than a full new balancing for the coding.
animations are one thing but if my 2H warrior is supposed to hit at the same speed rate as a rogue then you can not really expect them to do the same damage they're currently capable off. i wrote it in an other post: according to the game record i checked at lvl 14 my best mage had a top damage of 94, my 2H warrior had 84 and the healer-mage i created 81 so i see little reason to tweak this much, i'd even say that a 2h warrior is currently too powerful if you think that mages should represent unnatural power houses .

Modifié par menasure, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:53 .

[Grovermancer]

menasure wrote...

@ grovermancer: i'm fine with the idea of strength adding some speed itself but even in real life these effects exist within limits. you can look at strength being power muscles while speed muscles are the dex for the game because what is asked for is nothing less than a full new balancing for the coding.
animations are one thing but if my 2H warrior is supposed to hit at the same speed rate as a rogue then you can not really expect them to do the same damage they're currently capable off. i wrote it in an other post: according to the game record i checked at lvl 14 my best mage had a top damage of 94, my 2H warrior had 84 and the healer-mage i created 81 so i see little reason to tweak this much, i'd even say that a 2h warrior is currently too powerful if you think that mages should represent unnatural power houses .

You're right in that there would be an upward limit, certainly...

...nevertheless, it would seem fair and fitting that especially for 2-H that strength would enhance speed over varying degrees, probably more so than the other strength-based mele fighters.  (though in 'real-life,' it would somewhat increase their speed as well)

Being as the other weapons (even sword/board) are somewhat complex movements that require more subtle skills/attributes than the more 'raw power' a 2-H weapon would.


Though I just got done with a 2-H character, and thought it worked out just fine.

I'd rather they hurry up and get this damn archery fix out!!!

[Skellimancer]

F-C wrote...

2hd in action

lol.

True.

[Darkspawnbane111]

dual-class berserker it's much better!

[SoulRebel_1979]

Smerbev wrote...

You're simply trying to judge it on DPS which in no way dictates whether a class is useless. I've got a 2-hander, sword for standard and a maul for heavily armoured foes, and the guy is equal with Morrigan for damage and kills. He can't be knocked over, stuns regularly, has knock down abilities, reduces enemy armour and then has some extra damage abilities. Can it compare to the dps potential of a dw? No and if you're trying to use it that way then you need to change your tactic or sit around and be frustrated.

Best post in this thread. Determining usefulness by DPS alone is silly. 

[Dr3xx]

This isn't a min/max game. It simply isn't. 2hand seems like a ton of fun, and whereas my first play through was an OP dual wield warrior, my second is now going to be a 2hand warrior... I am not pretending that I'll out dps my DW, but I have no doubt in my mind I'll kill the Archdemon with a 2hander.

[Samurai Pumpkin]

On my last playthrough I had Sten almost 1 shotting regular monsters.  Gave him a really good 2 hander and kept him in "HEAVY" armor instead of Massive.  The guy with the shield keeps the massive armor so that enemies gravitate towards him much more easily while Sten doesn't quite get as much heat and takes a slightly smaller Stamina penalty.

[ByakuyaOne]

Sometimes when I read these forums I lament the fact they seem more like WoW forums then a single player game forum.



Does output of DPS/min maxing even matter, let alone the power of mages vs. other classes? Since we all get to use 4 classes at one time anyway. If you can't beat this game effectively (on Hard/NM) using what's already available then theorycrafting is the least of one's problems.