116 réponses à ce sujet

[Sevitan7]

SoulRebel_1979 wrote...
Best post in this thread. Determining usefulness by DPS alone is silly. 

We are comparing warriors, both can tank more or less the same thanks to tauant and those difference are marginal, irrelevant and we can all agree Shield tree is better for all that. DPS is all we can compare them on.

2H are not exactly useless, they are just much much weaker than dual wielders which makes them useless by extension when it comes to making a dps warrior.

From what I understand, their coefficient for str is .5-.75 which is the same as using a single weapon. Add to that that for instance, axes have the same strength modifier as greatswords and the only difference between is base damage, it becomes apparent how underpowered 2h weaponsa are. Put any single hand weapon on your 2h-er, you'll see the damage drop is not that much at all (-base damage and small str modifier if were using 2h axes/mauls). In anycase, the difference is not very big, apparently swining weapons with two hands does not qualify for getting more out of your str attribute in most cases. This needs to be raised, at least to .76-1. if not by another .25, which might be enough.


Damage wise, the put out nice a bing numbers (easily 80+ late game) but their attack speed is too slow comparably to dual wielders. Especially to rogues, who are backstabbing for the same damage, and can get 4 of those attacks out when it takes a 2h-er to do it once.

The main problem here might be that dual wielding might just be better than intedent. Rogues only need 5 talents to be effective with it, warriors need 7 since they will want 2 medium weapons. Dual Sweep is one of the best talents in the game, it seems to never miss, and does increased damage while hitting twice. Late game, that' s easily 2x 70 or 80 in a wide angle to everything infront you for a warrior. 2 or 3 enemies in front of you are you are doing 400+ damage instantly, a 2h will take forever to dish out that much damage, even with sweep (which seems to be affected by your hit rate compared to dual sweep).

It's one of the best aoe abilities in the game, and with  2 or 3 warriors with this you can cut down mobs so fast it's not even funny.

Also, momentum is simply to damn good on its own, and 2h have nothing comparable? Powerful Swings? Yay +5 damage or a 43% incrases in total dps? Which one is better? Maybe is Powerful Swings scaled with strength ( which makes sense) or something.

2h-ers require a lot of reworking. First of all, that coefficient needs to go up. Even if they were hitting for double damage by the end game they stil would probably not be able to match dual wielding warriors or rouges in overall dps.

All melee talents could use rework as well. Due to the stamina vs mana disparancies, 90% of all activated abilites are inefficient and it's far better to just stack sustainables to increase effectivness. A lot of them need to be cheaper, and have better effects. Including the dual wielding tree, since the 2nd line is damn near worthless as it is for example.

[Nemesis7884]

i agree that the 2h abilities are a bit boring...BUT - its a single player game, its not about powergaming, its not about balancing... you can play and win the game with either build, either character...so just enjoy it, im sure bioware will listen to all the complaints and make the necessary changes

[Elanareon]

hehe i just saw something disturbing about this thread. This is kinda off topic but oh well...People are talking about putting all of the points into STR and/or dex to min/max. And then people aslo complain about stamina issues in the game LOL I was confounded on why people complain about stamina in the game but now i know why

[immortallogic]

deeerrrrrrr 2h + haste + death hexzzz deeerrr

[immortallogic]

noo but elanareon I got like 70 str I aa for 100 why cant I win...i know its not the 10 wilpower i still have, or the fact I only have 14 constitution, or that I dont understand how buffing works petrify + mighty blow? Cone of cold + 2 h sweep? got 2hs suck all they get is a knock down, a crit, a aoe, a normal attack that destroys armor and has a stun proc..ffs FML

[GravityParade]

If you're perception of 2H warrior is that he's weak then you're doing it wrong. What you should be doing is throwing every attack/stat buff possible on this guy (Rejuvinate/Mass rejuvination/Heroic offense/telekenetic weapons/frost weapons/fire weapons), activate perfect striking, and start ****ing things up with mighty blow/Critical Strike. It has some sick burst damage potential as well as helping to keeping enemies getting knocked down and stunned.



Crusher!

Modifié par GravityParade, 20 novembre 2009 - 03:27 .

[Saphyro]

Hehe another "since-it's-lower-on-dps-than-class-X-let's-call-it-useless" topic. The biggest fun is where the abilities of all in-party characters meet up. Love to enter the crowd with sword&board main, followed by Sten slugging those who focus on the "tank"[while also being far more vulnerable if crowded since 2h warriors honestly will lack defence] and with my red-haired bard working through some solo targets [dual-wielding].



So, honestly. Why does a "meele-class-rating" always relate to "how much can he own" and is based on comparison to other meele classes? Why should even one class be so similar in terms of direct damage to another? They all play they roles, do they not? 2handed characters are crowd control/heavy armor crunchers. Dual wielders simply take down targets as fast as they can. That said, I still love sword&board chars who simply make sure others don't get hit.



Each class/specialization has it's purpose. Each class/weapon works good under certain conditions.

Let us not turn this game discussion into another "they have this, so I want it too" topic.

[Saphyro]

ByakuyaOne wrote...

Sometimes when I read these forums I lament the fact they seem more like WoW forums then a single player game forum.

Does output of DPS/min maxing even matter, let alone the power of mages vs. other classes? Since we all get to use 4 classes at one time anyway. If you can't beat this game effectively (on Hard/NM) using what's already available then theorycrafting is the least of one's problems.

*bow and agree*

[Ghandorian]

nerf dual weilding instead.



If you guys make 2h any more powerfull I am going to have to start running the game with only one or two companions to get any challange.

[Raxxman]

2 handers are fine, they can 1-2 shot mooks have good cc, and are great at fighting revs/ogres/dragons



they suffer a bit vs bosses that just do stupid raw damage with near immunity to CC but I find that even S&B tank builds suffer to that level of cheese.



I'm running through Nightmare with 2 2-handers, 1 archer rogue, 1 mage with a single heal spell. I really don't think the 2 handers are that bad.



Thing is I totally understand what people mean about the lousy mechanics of the game, but tbh, This game has awful mechnaics, I just moved on. This game is not a challenge unless you challenge yourself.



Ironically Nightmare is a nightmare for the RTS player, horrible game design, rubbish AI, cheesy tactics, only challenging when the game pumps the hp and dps of your opponent up to stilton levels. It's a gaming nightmare, but not in terms of being difficult.

[mysticforce42]

The main issue with 2H is that specials rest your swing timer, so if you time your specials poorly, you will cut your own DPS by a large percentage.



A well-build 2H warrior (Berserker + Reaver) with Powerful Swings active and Starfang will do ~100 damage per swing late game... vs almost any armor. If you actively use Rage, that number goes up. If you take damage, that number goes up. On my 2H warrior playthrough, I lost Wrynne to the Ashes quest and Morrigan at the end... so I did the final sequence with 3 2H warriors and a rogue, on Hard (didn't have enough potions for Nightmare >.>)... with no mage. You'd be surprised how quickly 3 2H warriors can clear room fulls of mobs.



Remember, you get Indominable practically at the start of the game - 10-12 levels before your sword/board warrior can get to immunity to knockdown. Your 2H warrior will be doing damage throughout a fight, when your other melees spend time stunned or on the ground. This can often make a rather large difference on Hard and Nightmare.



Certain 2H skills are better than others. For example, Sunder Armor is actually 2 swings, so do as much damage as two swings in the time for one. This ability out damages any other single target 2H skill.



In terms of pure DPS, 2H requires the least amount of babysitting (no real need for weapon enhancing spells or even +damage runes to maximize damage) while offering some limited CC. In terms of pure DPS, it is higher than DW for the majority of the game and only falls behind once you get to end game and lots of GM runes. It excels at fighting dragons and Revenants, which is usually when DW falters.



I think all in all, 2H is in a pretty comfortable niche. If 2H DPS manages to surpass DW DPS at the end game, there'd be absolutely no reason to go with DW at all.

[F-C]

ByakuyaOne wrote...

Sometimes when I read these forums I lament the fact they seem more like WoW forums then a single player game forum.

Does output of DPS/min maxing even matter, let alone the power of mages vs. other classes? Since we all get to use 4 classes at one time anyway. If you can't beat this game effectively (on Hard/NM) using what's already available then theorycrafting is the least of one's problems.

it would appear the developers agree :

Georg Zoeller wrote...

All that I do believe that the game can be played and enjoyed without the numbers - it's a single player game where tactical approach has a lot more impact on the outcome of combat than individual talents or whether or not I spent a bunch of points on attribute A instead of B.  Testing has confirmed this. DPs optimization is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.

DPs optimization is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.


in other words, if this is the type of thing you care about, you are most likely playing the wrong game.

[Velz]

Hathur wrote...

I've beaten the game using a 2h warrior and dual wield warrior.. both feel very powerful.. and in fact the 2handed did much better vs bosses cus he punches through heavy armor like butter.

2handed is a lot easier to build too.. you can quite literally pump nothing but Strength for 20+ levels and you make an insanely god like power hitter that never misses.

In contrast, my dual wield has to split Strength, Dexterity and a bit into willpower to have enough energy to use all their talents (2 hander is more stamina efficient... I.e. for 50 stamina I can do Massive strike and land a hit for 120+ damage.. whereas something like Flurry costs about the same and will do a total of around 100 damage).

That said, both are very good.. dual wielding is a lot easier early on, but 2hander shines after level 14.... and nothing compares to the destructive power of a 2hander vs dragons and other heavily armored enemies.

Dual wielding as a warrior is a stupid idea. As a rogue you only need dex and maybe cunning if you take the one talent that gives damage bonus to cunning. Some stamina of course also. You dont even need much at all into will due to the talent that gives back stamina.

[Jassper]

You just need to find the build that works.

There are complaints about every class being to strong as well as every class being to weak.

At first I had issues with my Rogues, until I figured out the key - now both are doing 80 to 100 points damage at level 12. One person complained that their Rogue was only doing 35 points tops at level 20 - obviously a bad build.

There are pros and cons to every class - as it should be, you need to find what works for you. At first I wanted it all (who doesn't) but I failed to focus my talents in one area and kept jumping around picking different talents. Now that I focus on one aspect, they are both doing good within their abilities. My archer Rogue is hitting 25 to 30 point with plain arrows. Couple that with rapid fire (2 to 3 shoots) and I am doing almost as much damage as a single hit from a 2H. To me that is fairly balanced. If a hit from a 2H can do 200 dam, then 3 to 4 hits in the same time span from a DW or S&B should do about the same, and for the most part that is what I am seeing in game.

However - I do agree that a higher Str should reduce the stamina cost of talents as well as reduce the movement penalty.

EDIT
as Chris points out - combat is based more on strategics than how much damage you can do.
I saw this first hand in the Mage tower when trying to save Conner. I had to play the mage that went into the Fade - I don't play mages and have no exp or desire to do so. I re-loaded 5 or 6 times until I finally worked out a strategy to defeat the creatures, just throwing every spell you have at it don't work.

Modifié par Jassper, 20 novembre 2009 - 04:14 .

[SoulRebel_1979]

Nemesis7884 wrote...

i agree that the 2h abilities are a bit boring...BUT - its a single player game, its not about powergaming, its not about balancing... you can play and win the game with either build, either character...so just enjoy it, im sure bioware will listen to all the complaints and make the necessary changes

Well, I don't agree that 2h abilities are boring, but I agree with everything else you said. Way too many MMO armchair quarterbacks on these forums. Everyones an expert on balancing apparently.

[Raxxman]

I get a bit tired of the bullcrap arguements against game balance.



Why bother with difficulty levels if class inbalance plays a signficantly greater role in balancing the game? Why bother with combat at all if the game is trivially easy to outplay?



It's just an excuse for lazy game design, if you can't be bothered to make it work, why bother to put in in the first place? People come across so smug when they say 'oh you might be playing the wrong game' when they're being stupid because the 'right game' people are asking for is one that is is well balanced, offering decent fun, good tactical options and the ability to approach combat in a wide variety of different attacking angels, as opposed to cheese cheese cheese.

[Discobird]

F-C wrote...

DPs optimization is neat, but really not required at all to play the game. 


in other words, if this is the type of thing you care about, you are most likely playing the wrong game.

I don't understand the logic behind this.  Just because you don't NEED to optimize DPS to play the game doesn't mean you're playing the wrong game if you care about it.  Let's see how that logic holds up to other gameplay elements:

"Knowing how much spells cost is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.  In other words, if you care about knowing how much spells cost you are most likely playing the wrong game."

"Having a mage in your party is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.  In other words, if you care about having a mage in your party you are most likely playing the wrong game."

"Having romances is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.  In other words, if you care about having romances you are most likely playing the wrong game."

[F-C]

Discobird wrote...

I don't understand the logic behind this.  Just because you don't NEED to optimize DPS to play the game doesn't mean you're playing the wrong game if you care about it.  Let's see how that logic holds up to other gameplay elements:

"Knowing how much spells cost is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.  In other words, if you care about knowing how much spells cost you are most likely playing the wrong game."

"Having a mage in your party is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.  In other words, if you care about having a mage in your party you are most likely playing the wrong game."

"Having romances is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.  In other words, if you care about having romances you are most likely playing the wrong game."

way to take things out of context, you are a champ.

i was referring to the people who only care about min/max their dps, cry for nerfs, say classes are useless, and things like that.

notice the title of the thread "warriors are useless"

but hey, dont let that stop your trolling, i wouldnt want you to think or anything.

[orpheus333]

lol nerf def nite

[Discobird]

F-C wrote...

way to take things out of context, you are a champ.

i was referring to the people who only care about min/max their dps, cry for nerfs, say classes are useless, and things like that.

Uh what? My point is that your logic doesn't support your position.  Just because you don't need to optimize DPS to play the game doesn't mean people who care about that sort of thing (including the min/maxers and people who say warriors are useless) should play something else.

Maybe there are other reasons they are playing the wrong game, but this isn't one of them.

Modifié par Discobird, 20 novembre 2009 - 04:40 .

[Solmyr2000]

Only problem with 2h warriors is that they are toooooo sloooow. And when they miss... It's for sure much worse than 2-wield miss. PC 2-h almost forced to take Wynne because of haste.

Well, IF there were haste potions like in BG...

Modifié par Solmyr2000, 20 novembre 2009 - 04:49 .

[F-C]

Discobird wrote...

Uh what? My point is that your logic doesn't support your position.  Just because you don't need to optimize DPS to play the game doesn't mean people who care about that sort of thing (including the min/maxers and people who say warriors are useless) should play something else.

Maybe there are other reasons they are playing the wrong game, but this isn't one of them.

if you feel the need to come to the forums and cry about nerf classes and classes are useless because they dont fit into your personal min/max model and things like that then i would say yes you are playing the wrong game.

this is a single player RPG that is based around tactical group combat and is balanced as such.

its not wow where you are going to parse combat logs and tweak every little detail down to the last thing so you can squeeze out that 0.00002% more damage.


when the developers tell you that maximizing dps is neat and all, but its not required to play the game, and yet you still come to forums and cry about it because you want the game to be something other than it is, you are playing the wrong game, period.

[F-C]

Lowlander wrote...
Hide the numbers and say it's a single player game, balance doesn't matter. That is certainly a lot easier than balancing an RPG system.

the 9 months they spent on balancing the game disagrees with you.

[Discobird]

F-C wrote...

if you feel the need to come to the forums and cry about nerf classes and classes are useless because they dont fit into your personal min/max model and things like that then i would say yes you are playing the wrong game.

this is a single player RPG that is based around tactical group combat and is balanced as such.

Look, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you on this.  This is a separate reason to say that min/maxers are playing the wrong game.  I'm just saying that the fact min/maxing isn't necessary to play the game doesn't mean min/maxers should play something else, and nothing you just said changes that.

I'm not just being nitpicky here, it's an important point because you sound like you're claiming the dev's authority when in fact what he said doesn't mean what you want it to mean.