87 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Darkhour wrote...

Yes, you are. No, ACTUALY you are saying he is better than perfect and can do the impossible. 

Wait, what? Shepard can oneshot as many civilians as he needs into unconsciousness on Feros. Most of those were armed and Shepard has had his cybernetics completely replaced and almost certainly upgraded since then. That isn't a cut scene either.

What you are saying is that it is impossible for Shepard to catch Morinth off guard. In doing so, aren't you are implying she is perfect and beating her is impossible?

[Thompson family]

Re: Original post.

Tossing aside all moral considerations, my Shep would rather have the loyalty of the slightly weaker choice than the mixed motives of the more powerful one.

Samara swore an oath, and her life as a Justicar shows she's someone of her word. "Your morals are my morals. Your wishes are my code."

Morinth is not only a supremely selfish creature, she's an addict. She must kill. Her loyalty will always be to herself.

In the game, she'll kill Shep when she gets the chance.

In addition, Samara is a Justicar, which means she has ironclad credibility with all law-abiding Asari. She's the ultimate witness and remember -- Shep's biggest challenge is getting people to believe him/her. Shep can preach and beg all day and the Asari will still question his/her judgement and sanity. If Samara sees something and tells the Asari Councillor it's a fact, the Asari will believe it.

[Darkhour]

Moiaussi wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Yes, you are. No, ACTUALY you are saying he is better than perfect and can do the impossible. 

Wait, what? Shepard can oneshot as many civilians as he needs into unconsciousness on Feros. Most of those were armed and Shepard has had his cybernetics completely replaced and almost certainly upgraded since then. That isn't a cut scene either.

What you are saying is that it is impossible for Shepard to catch Morinth off guard. In doing so, aren't you are implying she is perfect and beating her is impossible?

The default melee in ME1 is a rifle butt to the face. Even if he did punch them if would be like punching someone with a brass knuckle (the armored gloves).

Why would Shepard "catch Morinth off guard"? He just picked her over Samara? Why let her kill Samara and then launch a surprise attack on Morinth?

Please answer the question: Why would Shepard make the first move against Morinth after he'd just sided with her and let her kill Samara?



Beating Samara/Morinth is not impossible. A naked human beating either of them after they launch a sneak attack biotic throw with 8ft between them is impossible. This goes for any trained biotic vs a unarmed victim. BAM! they are thrown. There is no counter attack. No time to do anything but fly across the room. It is an unwinnable SITUATION. Here is another: Shepard is standing naked in a field. Harbinger comes down and hover 50 ft in the air. Points an appendage at him and says, "I will destriy you". So now I guess Harbinger cannot be defeat since in this SITUATION Shepard cannot win. Game over, I guess. No sense in ME3.

Modifié par Darkhour, 03 juin 2011 - 05:37 .

[100k]

[quote]Darkhour wrote...
Irrelevant.

The subject matter is post-decision. Samara is dead. Therefore, Shepard has already resisted her.[/quote]

Here is where our first problem is. Neither of us started out this conversation agreed where Shepard and Morinth would start off their fight, and how. 

YOU assumed that she would attack him by surprise after she killed Samara. 

I assumed that (taking Samara out of the equation entirely), they would likely attack each other when she was sitting on his lap, because this is at the exact moment when the two hunters [would be] about to pounce on each other

-Morinth in an attempt to either defend herself after realizing that she couldn't over power Shepard mentally, or attack him to over power him
-Shepard to defend himself after realizing that his plan was up, or attack her, assuming that he was hunting her without Samara to interfere. 

We can both argue all day and night on the merits of a "surprise attack", but then you must realize two things:

1) Surprise is not assurance of actual power. Merely opportunity. If Morinth surprised Shepard when his back was turned, in the middle of a conversation, or any other unsuspecting position, Shepard would probably lose. If Shepard attacked her mid conversation, position, etc etc, he would probably win outright.  

(although you'd have to keep in mind that they both know that the other is a killer, and likely be prepared for any situation like this. Even if Morinth got eight feet away, she'd still be taking a big risk assuming that a mid conversation attack would work on the man she was just trying to kill. And vise versa)

2) That IF surprise IS an element you are willing to bet upon in this match, you have no reason to discredit Shepard's ability to knock out heavier armored enemies who aren't suspecting him, be it Wrex, or two guards.

Because of a surprise attack's risk and validity in terms of actually measuring power/skill, I decided (whether you agreed or not) to assume that Shepard and Morinth would/should attack at the same time to establish a fair and monitored result of the fight. Think of it as watching an "unarmed" Shepard fighting Morinth in a Street Fighter style fight. No tricks, no cheats, just pure skill and power one on one.

I keep in mind that Shepard has a hand full of armaments tied to his physique and omni tools (and biotics), and I keep in mind that Morinth has abilities to rival her mother. 

Shepard has a fighting chance through these abilities (AR, VC, cloak, etc). Combined with N7 training and cybernetics. 

[quote]Yes, you are. No, ACTUALY you are saying he is better than perfect and can do the impossible.[/quote]

There simply isn't anything impossible about any of this. Read the above.

[quote]And what is this based on? One cheesy scene in Arrival where two mercs couldn’t hit a stationary target at POINT BLANK RANGE?[/quote]

That "cheesy scene" constitutes the "lore" that you will accept. Like it or not. 

But assuming that you don't believe that Shepard is skilled or strong enough to punch out two guards, we have two other scenes for you to scoff at.

-Shepard knocking down Wrex by surprise (a 900 Ib Krogan).
-And Shepard punching out the Shadow Broker aka a yahg (easily 2000 lbs). If Shepard's natural strength is enough to knock back a yahg, knock down a Krogan, (and therefore two mercs) what do you think it would do to Morinth? 

(and keep in mind that the Yahg was armed AND prepared. 

[quote]No, it hasn’t. There is no evidence whatsoever to support this idea that Shepard is biotic proof. And that is exactly what he would have to be to resist Morinth’s initial sneak attack to even have the opportunity to mount a counter attack. [/quote] 

We can ask the same question of Morinth: with no evidence that she is tech, biotic, or physically shielded, what could she use to shield herself against a sneak attack (mid conversation) from Shepard?

Don't you see how invalid using sneak attacks as the main judgement in a fight like this would be? It just isn't a fair assumption of power. If I shot Grunt in the eye with a high powered pistol, I'd probably kill him. Does that make me stronger? 

And we can assume that Biotic Shepard is at least semi biotic proof, on the simple basis that he's an N7 operative. You likely learn highly advanced anti biotic moves in N7 training if you're rocking the LSXs. Especially IF the N7 program recognizes that biotics come naturally with the asari.

*I deleted your next post, because I have explained the invalidity of surprise attacks as a measure of power. 

[quote]Unless my calculations are wrong. Any math experts around?

1200 Newtons is a heavy throw.  Given her biotic abilities I default to that force measurement (although her’s could be stronger given she and her mother are super saiyan asari).[/quote]

So then, how strong is biotic Shepard's heavy throw? If 1200 newtons is the minimum, and is more than enough to put Shepard on his ass at the very least, what if he hit her first? 

[quote]Samara apparently only wanted to hold her in place to give her one last lecture/taunting. It would have been pretty lame story wise if she just walked in a killed her in one hit and the mission complete screen popped up.  Whatever she was doing was different than a generic throw as she was applying constant force to keep her in place.[/quote]

That's fair. 

*I deleted this post again, because I have already addressed my thoughts on the value of a "surprise attack" as measurement of power/skill in this fight.


[quote]B.) The fact that I scanned an upgrade from it tells me it’s genuine. Morinth doesn’t strike me as the type to frame fake guns and swords. But I differ to the scan, not speculation.[/quote]

Probably is armed just in case. 

[quote]No, Samara WAS hunting Morinth before she was killed.  He sided with her. If he doesn’t trust her and is itching to kill her, why side with her in the first place and risk losing a squaddie. If an extra super biotic is viewed as being expendable why even bother recruiting her?[/quote]

Well, the Renegade Shepard jokes about how Morinth sounds like his kind of asari to Samara. Maybe he was itching to kill her. Maybe he would rather have Morinth on his squad than the strict Justicar. Who knows?

[quote]Your pride has nothing to do with rather Wrex is more badass than Shepard.  Your pride is demonstrated in your inability to admit when you are wrong. Self-evidence in your arguing a position that cannot be won and trying to direct the conversation to a new scenario in which you can win (i.e. the pre-choice situation).

Pride is a hell of a vice. I wouldn’t expect you to own up to it.[/quote]

My pride has absolutely nothing to do with this argument. I still haven't said "Shepard would win because I like him more and he is an unstoppable force"--at least without providing lore to back up my views on this matter. Lore that you have scoffed at (Shepard's physical strength, or class abilities for example) for reasons that you have still yet to explain. Is that pride that you're using? 

[quote]*facepalm*

THIS IS ABOUT SHEPARD PICKING MORINTH OVER SAMARA. That lap sitting is before that. IT’s no longer a factor in this discussion and never was. No one is disagreeing that Shepard COULD have killed Morinth while she was on his lap. There is a 100% chance that he would have won in THAT situation. Now can you please get back to the real topic?  Jesus Christ.[/quote]

First off, you need to calm down. 

Second, I'm glad that you admit that a surprise attack from Shepard would be as potent as a surprise attack from Morinth. I just hope you understand how in either case, the resulting death wouldn't be a valid measure of power. Just opportunity. Once again, If I shot Grunt in the eye and killed him (an attack of surprise), that still doesn't make me stronger.

[quote]Someone, you or somebody else, said the reason you can dodge her Charge attack is because it is slow. This was brought up when I mentioned Morinth getting out of the way of a Charge. Basically, it’s in reference to when Vasir is using Charge as a weapon against the player which has a relatively long charge up compared to when she is moving across the battlefield. When it hits, however, it is not some devastating attack above and beyond what Shepard’s charge does to foes. It is a mechanic that allows the player to get in extra damage. Like when the Terminator slouches over and gives you a clear shot at his eyes.[/quote]

I can argue against this, but we really need to cut this entire argument in half to save us time.

[quote]She doesn’t have to stop him from using tech. Shep never gets a chance to fight back. She attacks by surprise – BAM. He’s flying across the room before he can do anything. If you are just going to ignore the situation and insist Shepard is faster than a speeding bullet that’s your prerogative, but don’t kid yourself into thinking I’m dumb enough to buy that bull****. [/quote]

Surprise attack. I have already expressed my views on the surprise attack.

[quote]Tela’s Charge should be better. She’s an asari spectre. Hence the gameplay mechanics that account for the slow charge up (when attacking Shepard with Charge) are just that: Gameplay mechanics.[/quote]

Hm. Once again, so that we can save time, we should just drop this part.

[quote]As far as strength I base it on story/dialog/lore, cut scenes and even Shadow Broker videos. Honestly, based on what I’ve seen I’d rank them as such:

Jack
Samara/Morinth
Liara/Tela Vasir
Adept/Sentinel/Vanguard Shepard (Just throwing him in there)
Miranda/ Kaidan
Wrex
Thane

That’s just ranked by biotic power. Not overall deadliness.[/quote]

I would say that that is absolutely correct, save that Liara would be inferior to Tela. But apart from that, I'd say that that is completely spot on.

However, that DOESN'T mean that if Thane and Jack were facing off with 8 ft between them, Jack would automatically win. It doesn't mean that she would lose, certainly, but it just doesn't ensure her success against the assassin. I'd still say that it would be a GOOD fight no matter who won. 

But looking at the power rift between Jack and Thane, and thinking that it would still be a good fight, I can also look at that list, and see the smaller rift between Shepard and Morinth, and also assume that it would be a closer fight.

[quote]You’re ignoring the fact that it is a surprise attack and he’ll never get an opportunity. Of course you’d ignore this because you have no case otherwise. Facts must be dismissed, a more agreeable scenario must be inserted or the readers must have some suspension of disbelief for your fantastical Shepard to be taken seriously. She isn’t going to give him a heads up and openly challenge him to a duel. They’re not going to walk 10 paces, turn around and draw.[/quote]

And if Morinth wouldn't challenge an "unarmed" in a one on one, does that mean that she knows she couldn't win? Once again, if we're talking about who is more powerful, we must minimalize variables like who would strike first to get a definitive answer.

[quote]Imagine speaking to Mordin and all of a sudden he tosses a cryo blast at you in the middle of a sentence. Shepard isn’t even fast enough, strong enough or cautious enough to redirect Grunt’s momentum when he charged him. Luckily, Grunt felt like chatting and didn’t destroy Shepard immediately. So Shep can’t dodge a physical charge or flip a krogan karate style with his robo strength on an obvious predictable slower moving threat like an krogan charge, but he can dodge a biotic Throw which is a much faster attack that he can't possibly deflect? With ease, no less. [/quote]

Zaeed voice:Glad you 'n I agree.

(although Shepard was prepared in Grunt's scene. He had a gun pressed against his chest)

[quote] It’s just going to be, “Wooh, mother’s dead. Thanks, Shep, you helped and so I’m going to help you. I can  – BAM!!!” Within 1 sec Shepard is flying across the run into a krogan statue. All Morinth has to do is fling her hand toward Shepard. Sorry, mate, but NOBODY’S response time is that fast. Maybe if Shepard was farther way and the throw had more travel time.[/quote]

Yep. Surprise attack.

[quote]Even if he managed to get off an incinerate the throw would just blow it back in his face. He’s not going to be able to activate the omni-tool, much less curve it around the throw in under a second. Even if he could mentally see it coming and send the brain signals he can’t physically move that fast. Even with Adrenaline which would be pointless as the throw is coming his way by the time he gets the adrenaline. He’d just get thrown through the air and experience it in slow motion.[/quote]

But with Vanguard charge, or biotic barrier he would either dodge, or endure the throw. But I digress, you're point still stands. 


[quote]Legion has run an additional 45,712,998 simulations. Shepard-Commander is defeated in all scenarios. Consensus is 100%.
 Legion has also ran 14,001 simulations concerning Shepard-Commander’s ability to survive a sniper duel with Assassin Thane Krios. The rules: There is 150 yards between Thane and Shepard. Thane has a viper sniper rifle and Shepard has no cover and no weapon or armor. Legion concluded that your assertion that Shepard-Commander would win this duel is incorrect.[/quote]

First off, stop with the "Legion" stuff. It's not funny or cute.

Second, the Thane simulation is a great example to go from. We know that Tela's sniper shots bounced off Liara's biotic barriers. Why not Shepard's? But still, with no cover? Shepard might be able to get 50 yards, a lot farther than most would get, but he'd still go down. Even if he managed to engage Thane in a one on one, Thane's hand to hand combat probably trumps Shepard's (accepting that Shepard is stronger than Thane).


[quote]FACT: Shepard kicked ass and took names when *STOP! ARRIVAL SPOILER AHEAD* Kenson betrayed him. But he still got put on his ass in the end. The Reapers will kick ass and take names. We saw that in the trailer. Just because they lose later down the line doesn’t change this fact.[/quote]

Fact. Shepard went down when a Reaper artifact, millions of years old, indestructible, and with severe indoctrination effects (blocked by Shepard's cipher) knocked him out. 

Regarding that second part, I basically said that exact same thing.

[quote]Knowing something is coming, and prepping ahead of time for something that is coming, does not mean you will be prepared for when it actually comes. It does not mean you will win. It does not even mean you can win. Regardless, he was not prepared for the option to take Morinth alive. That was an on the fly decision. Or are you going to say he planned to spare Morinth and kill Samara from the get go even before he’d ever meet her? Even you wouldn’t say something that stupid, right? …right?[/quote]

Nope. But Renegade Shepard did show an interest in her before even going onto Omega to lure her in.

[quote]You clearly did not see the pre-release CG trailer of Thane fighting Eclipse mercs on his way to Nassana.[/quote]

The CG trailers aren't lore. They are advertisements that summarize the premise and characters of the game.

[quote]Yes. They are robots. That’s all the “anatomy” lesson I need. A smack to the flashlight knocked him out. WTF?[/quote]

It happened. End of discussion. 


[quote]Like Shepard knocking out two guys with helmets bare fisted with a single hit each? And said mercs not being able to shoot him at point blkank range. Small errors for the sake of storytelling, anyone?[/quote]

You have already expressed your views on the elements of surprise. So have I. 

[quote]But I’m actually OK with Shep’s super strength and agree that he does have above average strength. The obvious silly part is the merc’s inability to shoot a large relatively stationary target at POINT BLANK RANGE. Suspension of belief comes into play here. But Shepard’s strength isn’t the issue here. It’s the foolhardy notion that his reaction time is faster that humanly (or cyborg-ly) possible. [/quote]

Let's not go disregarding lore because we don't like it. Shepard is fast, and cleared a space of easily 5 ft in a few seconds after waking up from drugs.

(keep in mind that Morinth was 8 ft away from Shepard in the apartment, and wouldn't be firing a projectile based weapon, even if she would be ready for him...so either way, Shepard is pretty damn fast)

Even I think that scene could've been designed better --but I think we can both agree that Arrival wasn't very well made. 

But we can rationalize their reactions in other ways besides Shepard's N7 CQC skills. Maybe they had to flip their safety switches. Maybe the base-wide indoctrination made them react slower. Maybe, like most people would, they panicked at the sight of an incredibly deadly opponent bull rushing them, and fired wildly. You know what? That seems reasonable.

[quote]You’re basically saying he is moves faster than he can think; that he has reflexes akin to psychic foresight (i.e he reacts to Morinth's sneak attack before she even inititates it). [/quote]

Well, maybe he just thinks fast, and years of experience, cybernetics, and training allow his body to keep up? We have the Arrival punch out footage to support that notion. Lore. Clunky lore, but lore none the less.

[quote]It isn't "pretty obvious". Although I'm sure you'd like it to be. Those were all pretty solid punches.[/quote]

I outta knock you the hell out, Shepard says to Zaeed Massani -- implying that he could knock out the bounty hunter if he wanted to. 

Whether you like it or not, the fully trained man who knocked a Krogan off his feet, three fully armed mercs out, and a yahg back wards does have the ability (like most humans) to put a certain amount of force behind his fists. 

Smacking Verner, punching Jilani, punching Archer, prove this point blank. Hell, he broke a mercs neck with seemingly minimal effort, and pushed another merc out of a window.

I have lore as proof. 

[quote]Now you’re just making stuff up. She did not put it to his back and there is no magic 4in, 1 ft, 2 ft or 3 ft rule that allows rounds to bypass shields. She wasn’t even that close to him. You’re just being pathetic now.  But your lies and made up events don’t matter anyway. A single pistol shot cannot take down a NAKED krogan, much less a fully armored one. Do you ever get tired of ignoring facts and rewriting lore to fit your desired outcome?
 [/quote]

Lies? No. I just watched some youtube footage, and realized my mistake, and for that I am sorry. it was an honest mistake. But we know that a single shot DID NOT take down a armored Krogan. She shot him half a dozen times, while he (still alive) groaned and eventually died. Maybe Wrex's shield wasn't activated or something to that effect. We know that onboard the SR2 Grunt's shields weren't activated initially. 

And we DO know that Kinetic barriers, if passed physically by a hand or physical object DON'T work, because they don't have the strength to stop blunt force weapons in CQC (that's why Shepard can grapple physically with opponents) and can't stop bullets at close range (think of Saren's suicide).

Both situations of lore.

But we've gotten away from the point of  this argument, and I think I know why.

What I was all along saying is that unarmed Shepard is a match (at least) for Morinth in the apartment scene due to training, biosynthetic fusion, and class ability. If they faced off, from 8 ft away, on a couch, or in an open arena, Shepard would almost certainly win (again, 7/10 times). The only way to test this theory is to assume that they would either attack each other at the same time (in which case I'd say Shepard still gets the upper hand), or 

What you've been saying all along is that, if Morinth attacked Shepard when he wasn't expecting it, she would win. I fully agree. But this doesn't make her stronger/more dangerous than him-- and as such, is NOT a measure of actual ability. Furthermore, you admitted that she probably wouldn't want to face an unarmed Shepard in a one on one.

Therefore, with the element of surprise, anyone > anyone else. Agreed.

However, in a duel on just strength/skill, Shepard >  Morinth. Agreed?

(and keep in mind that you already did say that this is likely the case, that's why she would ONLY attack him in a mid conversation)

If what I said is true, then what you and I have is a lack of proper comprehension of each other's main points, and we can let this absurd argument die. 

Modifié par 100k, 03 juin 2011 - 05:51 .

[Moiaussi]

Darkhour wrote...

The default melee in ME1 is a rifle butt to the face. Even if he did punch them if would be like punching someone with a brass knuckle (the armored gloves).

Why would Shepard "catch Morinth off guard"? He just picked her over Samara? Why let her kill Samara and then launch a surprise attack on Morinth?

Please answer the question: Why would Shepard make the first move against Morinth after he'd just sided with her and let her kill Samara?

Isn't the premise here that Shepard lets Samara and Morinth fight it out without him choosing? Maybe he changes his mind after seeing Morinth win. Maybe he wants to take her down on his own before Samara arrives, just to prove he can. Who knows?

Beating Samara/Morinth is not impossible. A naked human beating either of them after they launch a sneak attack biotic throw with 8ft between them is impossible. This goes for any trained biotic vs a unarmed victim. BAM! they are thrown. There is no counter attack. No time to do anything but fly across the room. It is an unwinnable SITUATION. Here is another: Shepard is standing naked in a field. Harbinger comes down and hover 50 ft in the air. Points an appendage at him and says, "I will destriy you". So now I guess Harbinger cannot be defeat since in this SITUATION Shepard cannot win. Game over, I guess. No sense in ME3.

You are stacking the deck with respect to situation and ignoring facts. Shepard is not just an 'unarmed human.' He is an unarmed, heavily trained, heavily cybered human. You are stacking the deck by only accepting situations where Morinth has the first shot, and on top of that, comparing her with a Reaper in power? Saying SITUATION in caps doesn't make your SITUATION relevant.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 03 juin 2011 - 06:32 .

[Darkhour]

Moiaussi wrote...

Isn't the premise here that Shepard lets Samara and Morinth fight it out without him choosing? Maybe he changes his mind after seeing Morinth win. Maybe he wants to take her down on his own before Samara arrives, just to prove he can. Who knows?

No. Shepard sides with Morinth. He's didn't change his mind. He did not attack her. This is not about Shepard's next move. It's about Morinth's. It's about Morinth going back on her word.

Morinth just killed Samara. She is 8ft away. Shep has no gun, no armor, no shields. He is at Morinth's mercy as she doesn't need a gun.

You are stacking the deck with respect to situation and ignoring facts. Shepard is not just an 'unarmed human.' He is an unarmed, heavily trained, heavily cybered human. You are stacking the deck by only accepting situations where Morinth has the first shot, and on top of that, comparing her with a Reaper in power? Saying SITUATION in caps doesn't make your SITUATION relevant.

Why are you even replying to my SITUATION if you are going to argue in favor of a Shepard winning in a DIFFERENT SITUATION? I never said he couldn't win, IF HE STRUCK FIRST or even if they both came at each others as enemies from the get go. But under the assumption that Morinth would be an ally and she betrays him with a surprise attack; Shep being without any defenses, too far away to grab her and throw taking less than a second to pull off, he simply cannot react in time. It's IMPOSSIBLE for him not to get thrown. That's why you and everyone else have to insert a different situation because the one presented after Samara is killed is unwinnable AND YOU KNOW IT. "My Shepard is a super badass" isn't an argument. And that's what all your "arguments" pretty much boil down to. "Hehe, my shep is so badass he'd falcon punch the throw back at her! Hur hurr!!" "My shep is faster than light and can dodge bullets like the agents in The Matrix! He's so awesome!"

The key word here is "sneal attack"  That is, Morinth betrays Shepard. She gets the first strike. Without armor, he has no defense against her attack. By the time he sees it coming it's to late. He would have to mount a counter attack prior to or at the exact same time using his psychic foresight as she launches hers to stand a chance. That is IMPOSSIBLE without psychic abilities to see it coming in advance. Now, are you stating that Shepard is psychic?

There isn't enough training in the world to ignore physics, even mass effect fictional physics. Biotic throw launched. 1 sec later you are flying through the air. You can't train to react faster than possible. I don't care how good you are there are situation were victory is simply impossible. End of story.

[Nightwriter]

Thompson family wrote...

Re: Original post.

Tossing aside all moral considerations, my Shep would rather have the loyalty of the slightly weaker choice than the mixed motives of the more powerful one.

Samara swore an oath, and her life as a Justicar shows she's someone of her word. "Your morals are my morals. Your wishes are my code."

Morinth is not only a supremely selfish creature, she's an addict. She must kill. Her loyalty will always be to herself.

In the game, she'll kill Shep when she gets the chance.

In addition, Samara is a Justicar, which means she has ironclad credibility with all law-abiding Asari. She's the ultimate witness and remember -- Shep's biggest challenge is getting people to believe him/her. Shep can preach and beg all day and the Asari will still question his/her judgement and sanity. If Samara sees something and tells the Asari Councillor it's a fact, the Asari will believe it.

Bravo!

Logic which can apply to both paragons and renegades. I salute you, sir.

[Moiaussi]

Darkhour wrote...

No. Shepard sides with Morinth. He's didn't change his mind. He did not attack her. This is not about Shepard's next move. It's about Morinth's. It's about Morinth going back on her word.

Morinth just killed Samara. She is 8ft away. Shep has no gun, no armor, no shields. He is at Morinth's mercy as she doesn't need a gun.

And Morinth kills by seducing and killing. If Shepard plays coy and hard to get, why would he be any more or less at her mercy than if he helps her beat Samara?

Why are you even replying to my SITUATION if you are going to argue in favor of a Shepard winning in a DIFFERENT SITUATION?

Because I am responding to the OP's situation, in which Morinth has just beaten Samara without Shepard participating (other than maybe cheering them both on, lol). She is drained from what is presumably a tough fight, and doesn't have any reason to suspect Shepard as being anything other than a normal human. Nor would suddenly attacking him be her usual MO.

The key word here is "sneal attack"  That is, Morinth betrays Shepard. She gets the first strike. Without armor, he has no defense against her attack. By the time he sees it coming it's to late. He would have to mount a counter attack prior to or at the exact same time using his psychic foresight as she launches hers to stand a chance. That is IMPOSSIBLE without psychic abilities to see it coming in advance. Now, are you stating that Shepard is psychic?

Frankly, you are saying Morinth is psychic. Shepard knows Morinth is a psycho-killer. She doesn't normally kill in the way you are suggesting though. To simply attack with biotics would be out of character for her, and she could do so even if he helps her but doesn't. She does still want to kill him in that situation, but sticks to her MO of trying to seduce him. She can be patient. She has a much longer lifespan than him and the hunt likely turns her on. If he does try to romance her after taking her on as a crew member, she does kill him.

There isn't enough training in the world to ignore physics, even mass effect fictional physics. Biotic throw launched. 1 sec later you are flying through the air. You can't train to react faster than possible. I don't care how good you are there are situation were victory is simply impossible. End of story.

This is nothing to do with ignoring physics. Yes there are situations that are no win. You are chosing such a situation out of convenience without justifying your choice.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 03 juin 2011 - 07:39 .

[celuloid]

Lets talk about OP guys, shall we?
Shepard cannot let Samara/Morinth (S/M) fight it out, because such move would not secure loyalty of the survivor (be it Samara or Morinth). In their eyes Shepard would be just an opportunist and they might abandon him.

Regarding this personal war that is going on, I suppose it is quite standard these days on forums.
Nevertheless, here is my personal take on Morinth vs. Shepard fight:
1. tech Shepard (Infiltrator, Engineer, Sentinel) - It is factual lore, not gameplay mechanic, that biotic powers need to be charged up first (even Samara and Morinth in cutscene do not throw biotics with clicks of fingertips). This charging is quite self-evident and would allow Shepard to use weaponized omni-tool first (omni-tools do not have charge-up sequence as far as we know). Cryo blast or Incinerate would probably kill unarmored target.
2. biotic Shepard (Adept, Vanguard, Sentinel) - Morinth (and Jack too) probably have sheer biotic power needed to maintain biotic fields and other funky stuff. However just as in real fights, biotic combat prowess is not about smashing someone real hard and win. I take for granted that the best Spectre in galaxy does not have problems to beat exhausted foe such as Morinth, who does not have any knowledge of Shepard's biotic abilities.
3. defenceless Shepard (Soldier) - Yes, Shep would probably lose. His reflexes won't allow him to jump 5 meters instantly, and he does not have any firearm at the moment. He would just get biotic-lifted and falcon-punched to death.

[Darkhour]

Moiaussi wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

No. Shepard sides with Morinth. He's didn't change his mind. He did not attack her. This is not about Shepard's next move. It's about Morinth's. It's about Morinth going back on her word.

Morinth just killed Samara. She is 8ft away. Shep has no gun, no armor, no shields. He is at Morinth's mercy as she doesn't need a gun.

And Morinth kills by seducing and killing. If Shepard plays coy and hard to get, why would he be any more or less at her mercy than if he helps her beat Samara?

*sigh*

Back to this are we? Despite the fact that she tried to seduce him and failed you bring forth the mind numbingly idioitc idea that she is going to try that route again. Ignoring the fact that she is just as powerful as Samara and can kill him with her biotic attacks. That's as stupid as Shepard failing to pierce the Shadow Broker's personal shield with guns so his next course of action is to keep trying to use guns. Ugh!

You know what? I'm done with you. 

You are either being willfully vexacious or are too stupid to grasp simple concepts. This conversation, anything in reply to MY comments are not about the OP's question; it's about MY statements. Obviousy we are not talking about why Shepard doesn't just let them fight it out. Mindnumbingly obvious. This is about the stupidity in the decision to save Morinth. Regardless, I'm not going to respond further to foolishness and borderline trolling.

Maybe I'm the crazy one for replying to a brick wall and expecting an intelligent response.

[Moiaussi]

Lol, so you were off an on irrelevant tangent and rather than simply admit that, you would rather hurl insults?

Yes she can kill using raw force. She doesn't do that kind of thing. There is no evidence that she ever uses that method of murder. She does use those techniques in regular combat, but not as a murderer. Failng to seduce someone immediately does not mean she throttles them with her biotics. There is no evidence of any such response from her.

She tries to seduce him and fails, but stays on as a crewmember. If she ever succeeds in seducing him she kills him then in her usual manner. That is in game reality.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 03 juin 2011 - 10:25 .

[Darkhour]

This is going to be my last post on this subject as I grow tired of talking to brick walls (that comparison is not directed at you, Celuloid). I don't see the point in these long posts when I know I'm right and the opposition knows I'm right.

celuloid wrote...
1. tech Shepard (Infiltrator, Engineer, Sentinel) - It is factual lore, not gameplay mechanic, that biotic powers need to be charged up first (even Samara and Morinth in cutscene do not throw biotics with clicks of fingertips). This charging is quite self-evident and would allow Shepard to use weaponized omni-tool first (omni-tools do not have charge-up sequence as far as we know). Cryo blast or Incinerate would probably kill unarmored target.

The only charge time I know of is in the novels. Book "lore" contradicts game lore. In-game lore trumps everything as the book is based on the game. Not the other way around. Drew Karpyshyn said that the reason it's like that in the books is because biotic characters would be too powerful. Skarr, for instance, would have been nigh unassailable and would have murdered Anderson easily with no chance for the protagonist to prevail. 

*SPOILER CLIPS*

And you are incorrect. Morinth and Samara do fling biotics about with mere arm gestures.


So does Tela Vasir and Liara.


And Jack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LlUrK04m7g

And Miranda (no gameplay mechanic cool downs either)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCkicIl7pso


I think you get where I'm going with this.

Biotics are relatively instant. The blue glow accompanies an attack. It does not precede an attack by any measure the human eye can perceive. It can precede an attack if the person decides not to immediately fire off an attack, but that's their choice. The clips above have shown than there is no mandatory waiting period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16go7iUIK9o 
Go to 0:48. How much time does it take a biotic to launch throw? The merc's distance is about right.

49.66 secs - Nothing.
49.67 secs - Blue glow starts
49.80 secs - Arm ****s back
49.93 secs - Arm launches forward
50.00 secs - Throw is launched
50.13 secs - Merc is hit.

That's 0.47 seconds. The merc in the pic is alittle farther away then Morinth is from Shepard so actually it would hit even faster than this.

Shepard would need to take the following steps within half of a second:

1. Realize there is an attack coming.
2. Raise his hand up
3. Activate his omni-tool attack

I doubt he'll get past step 1. At best, and if we accept a certain level of suspension of belief, he could get midway through step 2... maybe

Let's see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc-HlQTnnkk
Go to 1:47. How long does it take for the Engineer to fire off a tech power? I'm giving the opposition the benefit of the doubt, so the attack doesn't even have to hit the target within this time. It just needs to be fired so that we can say he and Morinth will hit each other even if he's flying across the room by the time she gets hit. 

1:47.88 - Nothing
1:47.93 - Right arm in process of moving over to left arm
1:48.00 - Right arm reaches left arm
1:48.07 - Right arm ****s back, left arm follows right arm 
1:48:13 - Energy animation begins
1:48.20 - Cryo blast pre-launch ring appears
1:48:25 - Cryo Blast launches

That's 0.37 seconds.

The median human reaction time is 240 miliseconds or 0.24 seconds. I'm going to give Shepard an above average 200 milisecond reaction time. Olympic runner can even be as low as 0.12 seconds. But that's with constant training to automatically respond to a specific stimuli. Screw it, as ridiculous and unrealistic as this would be lets say Shepard can react in 0.12 seconds.

Assuming Shepard is that fast it would take him 0.12 seconds to send the brain signal to react. I'm not even going to include the time before he knows there is something to react too.

0.12 second just to begin moving. 
0.35 seconds left.
0.37 second to launch attack
- 0.02 seconds too slow

Almost, but not good enough, And that's generously assuming Shepard's reaction time is amoung the best humanly possible, that there is no time before the 0.12 secs kick in where he doesn't yet know there is something to react too in the first place and adding more time to the throw travel time. Even when unrealistically boosting his odds he still fails to so much as take her out with him.

Assuming he did have psychic intuition and jumped out of the way before she ever launched the attack, he would have to... well, jump out of the way as the attack would simply follow him if he tried to simply side step it. Shepard diving to the floor with 8ft betwen him and his attacker and no gun still puts him in a horrible position. Now she's really got him. He has to take time to get up, roll over or whatever. Lift + another throw = Shepard stain on windows or Shepard superman flying out the window. Either outcome is not good for Shepard.

[celuloid]

Please, don't go! Now the discussion starts being interesting.
So far, we have established the following: soldier-shep loses, biotic-shep wins, and we have yet to decide about tech-shep.

I personally take cutscenes with a grain of salt. Not everything seems plausible, e.g. people honestly cannot believe that Jack could destroy 3 Ymir mechs barehanded.
I believe books provide far more accurate depiction of ME reality, because when you cannot use cinematic sensationalism, you have to build realistic world where things make sense. Overpowered biotics do not make sense. Books do not contradict in-game lore, because charge-up times in gameplay and cutscenes serve the purpose of entertaining the player, along with other elements like shep's regenerating health. If you will, this is not matter of underwhelming biotics in books, it is matter of overpowered biotics in gameplay and cutscenes. Another example of gameplay convenience is infinite supply of engineer's drones and adept's singularity.

I do not suggest these charge-up times are overly long. However, anything longer than 0.5 second would provide ample time for shep to react. Hell, even some quicker move on Morinth's side might trigger shep's reaction. If you pay attention, she tries not to make any such move during their post-fight conversation.
And when I referred to charge-up times during S/M fight, I specifically meant Morinth's Kamehameha at 2:00. You might argue it is purely cinematic just as Jack's Ymir-wrecking gauntlet, but I say this is how biotics work in reality (plus Morinth is already exhausted, which further supports my point of Shepard's superiority in possible fight).

And regarding defencelessness of soldier-shep, if we are willing to accept he is not total fruitcake and made some preparations off-screen (he might have asked Mordin for omni-tool, with Manual for Dummies), soldier-shep would win too.

To finalize my post, I think it is unfortunate that players include rationalization about shep's security into their choice. Morinth is certainly powerful and we have to respect that. However, the choice is about who has greater right to live, uncompromising fanatic or sexual predator. Both are killers, difference is whether you want to die under the heel or in the embrace.

Modifié par celuloid, 04 juin 2011 - 04:55 .