78 réponses à ce sujet

[Chuvvy]

Why dose she think she can kill you? She's a healer. What's she going to do heal me to death? Just like those peasants in awakening. I've killed two dragons one Arch Demon and countless darkspawn. You think you could even touch me?

Modifié par Slidell505, 23 mai 2010 - 08:39 .

[Tirigon]

I´ll express my differing opinion with the OP as politely as possible and reload my save to kill her:devil::devil:

[OldMan91]

You forgot hypocrite.

And patronizing.

[Sarah1281]

Slidell505 wrote...

Why dose she think she can kill you? She's a healer. What's she going to do heal me to death? Just like those peasants in awakening. I've killed two dragons one Arch Demon and countless darkspawn. You think you could even touch me?

At least with those peasants that revolt you can point this fact out to them and they agree that you're right and go away.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 23 mai 2010 - 08:51 .

[Sarah1281]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

I like her. Finding out that she is bit of a cougar suprised me but then it made me look into her more as a friend than a grandmother.

Could you have found out she was a cougar when you weren't standing in front of Cailan's dead body the darkspawn were using as a trophy? What happened to all that grief and anger she threw at Loghain when he went? She's fine to have happy flirty banter with Alistair at Ostagar of all places? 

[ejoslin]

Wynne is not a cougar. That was just other-writer weirdness. There are other banters where Wynne says stuff about the warden(s) being too young for her. Don't make me open my toolset though. I've had enough of it for today.

Edit: *sigh* here it is.

Oghren: So, you're not tossing yourself at the boss?
Wynne: What?
Oghren: Seems like every other woman in this band is tossing herself at the boss feet-first. (Matter-of-fact.)
Oghren: It's like a sodding noble's birthday party around here.
Wynne: Oh, no, the Grey Warden is a little young for me. Both of them are.
Oghren: Need someone with a little more experience, I guess, right?
Wynne: I suppose.
Oghren: Well, you know where to find me.

Second edit: I still don't like Wynne, but not because some writer decides to give her dialog in a DLC that doesn't fit with her dialog in the main game.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 mai 2010 - 09:55 .

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wynne never compremises her standpoint to keep the Warden on the road to the Salvation of Ferelden and the people. So, if we become infatuated with Leli, Mori, Alistair, etc, she intercedes to warn us that Loving something deeply, than losing it horribly, can scar us in such a profound way that all else seems of little importance. As the sole Hope for Fereldan, the Gray Warden can seldom afford this.

So she thinks that if your LI were to dump you you'd be too emo to stop the Archdemon? Some people have played their Wardens as getting so emo about it that they do the US ending but does she really think that anyone could be that immature? That's just insulting. Yes, love (especially love of Alistair) could lead you to make a potentially disastrous choice about the DR but Wynne doesn't know that exists or that a GW needs to die to kill the Archdemon and her assumption that you can't handle a relationship - or even meaningless sex - and save the world at the same time isn't supported by anything you do in the game ever.

There is Nothing immature about being devastated by a 'True Love' relationship ending in tradegy. You could be the most mature, stalwart, heroic figure in the world, but there is little that can defend against a Heart broken by loss. I don't believe Wynne feels the Warden would become "Emo", but his/her desire for revenge might blind him/her to making the "Proper" choice as opposed to making a choice he/she may feel is justified by the death or murder of a respective LI. The Dark Ritual isn't the only poor choice one could make in regards to Loving something too deeply to see the danger in it; and Wynne's initial observations aren't meant solely for the romance with Morrigan, it's meant to be applied to Loving any of the Companions.

Lastly, as I mentioned in my post (since it seems people tend not to not read *eveything* someone writes once they see something that gets thier ire up) Wynne actually replies later that she may have looked upon the relationship too harshly, and that she has come to see that both the Warden as well as the Person their with has been made Stronger by the relationship and that even if Death parts them, she knows they will not decend down a path of revenge or misery.  Initialy however, she felt she had to be fearful of a potentially poor outcome for both the Warden as well as Fereldan.

[Joshd21]

Sarah1281 wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

I like her. Finding out that she is bit of a cougar suprised me but then it made me look into her more as a friend than a grandmother.

Could you have found out she was a cougar when you weren't standing in front of Cailan's dead body the darkspawn were using as a trophy? What happened to all that grief and anger she threw at Loghain when he went? She's fine to have happy flirty banter with Alistair at Ostagar of all places? 

True, it just did not fit her personality from part where I knew her from entering the mage tower to say something like that in a place filled with dead bodys. Perhaps the comedy writers wanted to spice up the script a bit. I sort of lost a bit of respect for her with that one witty line she said. I mean honestly, for as much as she explains, guides she should have known better

[RogueWriter3201]

ejoslin wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

Wynne never compremises her standpoint to keep the Warden on the road to the Salvation of Ferelden and the people.

 

Except for three times where she tries to kill the warden, of course...

Edit: Or four times, if you count the blood mage thing that was removed from the vanilla game...

You're using that sentence out of context, Ejoslin. By saying, "She never compremises," it means she believes in the cause of the just and the sanctity of the Chantry and of Andraste; so, of course she would try to defeat the Warden, given that if you actually *choose* to destroy the Remains of someone akin to Christ, Moses, and Muhammad, its fairly clear you're no "Future Hope" for a better Fereldan. At best you're a future Tyrant, at worst, you're a Demon wearing a meat-suit. You might not see it that way from your perspective, but Wynne sure as heck does. And by attempting to save the people from a Warden gone far too the Dark Side, Wynne is choosing to not compremise her ideals, even if it means attempting to take the life of someone she cared for and wanted the best for.  

[Axekix]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

I like her. Finding out that she is bit of a cougar suprised me but then it made me look into her more as a friend than a grandmother.

Could you have found out she was a cougar when you weren't standing in front of Cailan's dead body the darkspawn were using as a trophy? What happened to all that grief and anger she threw at Loghain when he went? She's fine to have happy flirty banter with Alistair at Ostagar of all places? 

It wasn't right in front of Cailen's dead body. It was somewhere when they kill the Ogre and get the last part of Cailan’s armor. And you have to admit that it was a long day.

Besides, I heard people in RL say far worse things in the worst situations possible. Either as a joke or sense of stupidity. I'm one of those people

Yeah it never really bothered me tbh.  Maybe a little inappropriate but I think she was just trying to lighten the mood a bit... really, the whole experience had been pretty morbid up to that point.

Anyway I really like Wynne as a char.  She's probably my favorite party member and most used behind the LIs.  She may be a little preachy, but there is a lot of wisdom in what she says.  Especially about some of the romances (although people seem to hate admitting it).  I hope she's still kicking around in DA2!

[RogueWriter3201]

ejoslin wrote...

Wynne is not a cougar. That was just other-writer weirdness. There are other banters where Wynne says stuff about the warden(s) being too young for her. Don't make me open my toolset though. I've had enough of it for today.

Edit: *sigh* here it is.

Oghren: So, you're not tossing yourself at the boss?
Wynne: What?
Oghren: Seems like every other woman in this band is tossing herself at the boss feet-first. (Matter-of-fact.)
Oghren: It's like a sodding noble's birthday party around here.
Wynne: Oh, no, the Grey Warden is a little young for me. Both of them are.
Oghren: Need someone with a little more experience, I guess, right?
Wynne: I suppose.
Oghren: Well, you know where to find me.

Second edit: I still don't like Wynne, but not because some writer decides to give her dialog in a DLC that doesn't fit with her dialog in the main game.

Thanks for posting this, Ejoslin, depite the hurt it caused you, Lol.
I will admit to being somewhat surprised by this, though not because it 'not' Wynne-ish. I can see why it might seem out of place for Wynne to make these kinds of statesments, but I think that mainly has to do with the fact that alot of Wynne's 'banter' dialogue with Companions is often delivered out of order or misinterpreted. Is Wynne a Cougar? Hell no. She's not on the Prowl for young men. However, it's clear Wynne was someone who always enjoyed Sex when it was uncomplicated.

Often, she makes references to her youth and how Outgoing or outspoken she was. She even comments to Alistair that it wasn't uncommon for her and other Mages to seek out one another's company when the need arose. Sadly, this resulted in a Child for her at least once; however, I don't think such a sad experience killed the enjoyment of sex for her. In the case of the Warden, it's more likely her comment to Oghren is only a slight "glossing over" of her real feelings, those being that as much as she might find Alistair or even the Warden (if male) physically arousing, it would ruin thier mentor like relationship or cause complications altogether.

So, in the end, don't think the above dialogue is a result of writers stepping on each other's toes in regards to character interpretation.

[Sarah1281]

glenboy24 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wynne never compremises her standpoint to keep the Warden on the road to the Salvation of Ferelden and the people. So, if we become infatuated with Leli, Mori, Alistair, etc, she intercedes to warn us that Loving something deeply, than losing it horribly, can scar us in such a profound way that all else seems of little importance. As the sole Hope for Fereldan, the Gray Warden can seldom afford this.

So she thinks that if your LI were to dump you you'd be too emo to stop the Archdemon? Some people have played their Wardens as getting so emo about it that they do the US ending but does she really think that anyone could be that immature? That's just insulting. Yes, love (especially love of Alistair) could lead you to make a potentially disastrous choice about the DR but Wynne doesn't know that exists or that a GW needs to die to kill the Archdemon and her assumption that you can't handle a relationship - or even meaningless sex - and save the world at the same time isn't supported by anything you do in the game ever.

There is Nothing immature about being devastated by a 'True Love' relationship ending in tradegy. You could be the most mature, stalwart, heroic figure in the world, but there is little that can defend against a Heart broken by loss. I don't believe Wynne feels the Warden would become "Emo", but his/her desire for revenge might blind him/her to making the "Proper" choice as opposed to making a choice he/she may feel is justified by the death or murder of a respective LI. The Dark Ritual isn't the only poor choice one could make in regards to Loving something too deeply to see the danger in it; and Wynne's initial observations aren't meant solely for the romance with Morrigan, it's meant to be applied to Loving any of the Companions.

Lastly, as I mentioned in my post (since it seems people tend not to not read *eveything* someone writes once they see something that gets thier ire up) Wynne actually replies later that she may have looked upon the relationship too harshly, and that she has come to see that both the Warden as well as the Person their with has been made Stronger by the relationship and that even if Death parts them, she knows they will not decend down a path of revenge or misery.  Initialy however, she felt she had to be fearful of a potentially poor outcome for both the Warden as well as Fereldan.

I read the full post I just didn't see the need to quote everything when I was only replying to that section. If I had the exact same reply to the entire quoted post would that have changed anything? Wynne decides later that she was wrong and you guys are really in love but what if that doesn't happen and you two are just having a fling like Morrigan and Zevran claim to want? It's still not her business. And actually, you can only get that upset about the death of a true love if it's a serious relationship which is when she apologizes and says she approves so that can't be it. I didn't say it was immature to be devastated but if you decide 'you know what, I don't care that I'm Ferelden's only hope because I'm heartbroken so screw the Blight, I must go do...' then that is extremely immature and unlikely but it is what Wynne appears to fear.

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...



*snip*

*snip*

I read the full post I just didn't see the need to quote everything when I was only replying to that section. If I had the exact same reply to the entire quoted post would that have changed anything? Wynne decides later that she was wrong and you guys are really in love but what if that doesn't happen and you two are just having a fling like Morrigan and Zevran claim to want? It's still not her business. And actually, you can only get that upset about the death of a true love if it's a serious relationship which is when she apologizes and says she approves so that can't be it. I didn't say it was immature to be devastated but if you decide 'you know what, I don't care that I'm Ferelden's only hope because I'm heartbroken so screw the Blight, I must go do...' then that is extremely immature and unlikely but it is what Wynne appears to fear.

Acutally, yes it would have changed, since you're still misreading Wynne's intent. Even if the Warden and another Character are just having a Fling (which always turns into something more serious, at least for your LI of choice regardless of how *you* view it) there is still some measure of danger in allowing yourself to become too distracted when seemingly the fate of the World hangs in the balance.

From your standpoint, it's no Big deal, you're just screwing around, what's the harm? It's not so black and white from Wynne's point of view. She sees how important you are, how much of a better chance Fereldan has of stopping the Blight with you taking the lead as opposed to Alistair who is option B; she's also seen how something as small as wanting personal freedom (Uldred, Moira) to do as one wishes, even for something as small as Sex, can lay the foundation for something larger and more damaging down the road. It's not that she has lack of faith in you, it's simply that no one can foresee how bad things could possibly go, and given the seriousness of the situation with the Blight, Wynne chooses to heir on the side of caution and attempt to make the Warden aware of the inherent dangers of both relationships and simple daliences.

So, no, it's not that Wynne's afraid of you saying, "Screw it, I'm out of here," it more that she's concerned that you may be so caught up in a romance or enjoying yourself that you might not see something important when it comes along; and it's a proven fact, even in Real World History, that small distractions can often Blind people to a larger looming danger.  

[Sarah1281]

glenboy24 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...



*snip*

*snip*

I read the full post I just didn't see the need to quote everything when I was only replying to that section. If I had the exact same reply to the entire quoted post would that have changed anything? Wynne decides later that she was wrong and you guys are really in love but what if that doesn't happen and you two are just having a fling like Morrigan and Zevran claim to want? It's still not her business. And actually, you can only get that upset about the death of a true love if it's a serious relationship which is when she apologizes and says she approves so that can't be it. I didn't say it was immature to be devastated but if you decide 'you know what, I don't care that I'm Ferelden's only hope because I'm heartbroken so screw the Blight, I must go do...' then that is extremely immature and unlikely but it is what Wynne appears to fear.

Acutally, yes it would have changed, since you're still misreading Wynne's intent. Even if the Warden and another Character are just having a Fling (which always turns into something more serious, at least for your LI of choice regardless of how *you* view it) there is still some measure of danger in allowing yourself to become too distracted when seemingly the fate of the World hangs in the balance.

From your standpoint, it's no Big deal, you're just screwing around, what's the harm? It's not so black and white from Wynne's point of view. She sees how important you are, how much of a better chance Fereldan has of stopping the Blight with you taking the lead as opposed to Alistair who is option B; she's also seen how something as small as wanting personal freedom (Uldred, Moira) to do as one wishes, even for something as small as Sex, can lay the foundation for something larger and more damaging down the road. It's not that she has lack of faith in you, it's simply that no one can foresee how bad things could possibly go, and given the seriousness of the situation with the Blight, Wynne chooses to heir on the side of caution and attempt to make the Warden aware of the inherent dangers of both relationships and simple daliences.

So, no, it's not that Wynne's afraid of you saying, "Screw it, I'm out of here," it more that she's concerned that you may be so caught up in a romance or enjoying yourself that you might not see something important when it comes along; and it's a proven fact, even in Real World History, that small distractions can often Blind people to a larger looming danger.  

There is no basis for Wynne's fears. By the time she talks to you about this you have successfully completed at least one quest and Alistair/Morrigan/Leliana are very committed to ending the Blight and Zevran can't leave witout endangering himself. What does she hoestly imagne will happen? Your LI dies and you forget the Blight to go on an epic quest to, say, destroy the Antivan Crows or hunt down everyone responsible in Orlais? That isn't allowing yourself to be distracted that is being an idiot as unless the Blight is stopped then there won't be any Crows or Bards to seek vengeance on. What, exactly, could she possibly be afraid of? 

[Rhys Cordelle]

old book wrote...

From a character POV, she's a mixed bag. She's a prison camp survivor who defends the policies of the people who imprisoned her, brutalized and (she believes) killed her apprentice, and stole her child.
.

= Stockholm syndrome.

[ejoslin]

By the time Wynne talks to you about this, the relationship is at "adore". It's not her business. If she really were worried about the blight above all things, she wouldn't on three (or four) different occasions try to kill the warden.

[Chuvvy]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

old book wrote...

From a character POV, she's a mixed bag. She's a prison camp survivor who defends the policies of the people who imprisoned her, brutalized and (she believes) killed her apprentice, and stole her child.
.

= Stockholm syndrome.

Mind was blown.

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...



*snip*

*snip*

*snip* 

 

*snip*

  

There is no basis for Wynne's fears. By the time she talks to you about this you have successfully completed at least one quest and Alistair/Morrigan/Leliana are very committed to ending the Blight and Zevran can't leave witout endangering himself. What does she hoestly imagne will happen? Your LI dies and you forget the Blight to go on an epic quest to, say, destroy the Antivan Crows or hunt down everyone responsible in Orlais? That isn't allowing yourself to be distracted that is being an idiot as unless the Blight is stopped then there won't be any Crows or Bards to seek vengeance on. What, exactly, could she possibly be afraid of? 

Acutally, there still is. Again, it's not that she's afraid you're going to run off, it's that the loss of your LI or even the Romance itself might prove *Enough* of a distraction that you might not see something important, however small, or that it might, however slightly, effect your overall judgement. Again, it's easy, from the Warden's standpoint, to think that it won't. However, as I mentioned, Wynne has seen the effect small damages can have overtime. Even with the final battle against the Archdemon looming on the Horizon, there is still the chance the Warden could fall or make the wrong choice based on even the slightest distraction. And such a distraction does not inherently mean the Warden is a fool or that Wynne believes him to be. As I meantioned in my previous posts, small distractions that seem unimportant at the time can effect the best of us. Wynne does not feel it's safe to risk it, even if she should want the Warden to be happy. If the world's greatest Hope came into your life, what would you do, how harsh would you choose to be in order to keep that Hope Alive or on the Right Path?

A great example is a Parent. Parents often chastise Teens for staying out late, or for hanging with someone who just seems...off. To that Teen, it's a small thing, but the Parent knows just how sinister the world can be, and how even a small danger can turn into a large one. That's not to say Wynne sees the Warden as a teen, just that she has experienced more of the world than he/she has, and knows how easy it is for a small danger to become a large one, and she wants to make sure the Warden can see even the tiniest Danger when it comes; something that *can* be hindered by even the *smallest* distraction, ergo her apprehension ,at first, at a Dalience or Romance. 

[RogueWriter3201]

ejoslin wrote...

By the time Wynne talks to you about this, the relationship is at "adore". It's not her business. If she really were worried about the blight above all things, she wouldn't on three (or four) different occasions try to kill the warden.

Again, Ejoslin, this isn't a valid point. Yes, she cares about the Blight, but thats because she cares about the Future of Fereldan. Should the Blight be defeated and the Warden lives what good would said Warden be for the People and thier collective future when he/she is the kind of person who Destroys the sacred remains of someone who tried to free the world from Slavery, or Talks a group of Cursed creatures into Destroying a people that are trying to rebuild thier shattered culture? She wants the Warden to be Fereldan's Champion and Savior, not thier version of the Anti-Christ; we'll leave that job to Morrigan's God Bady.

[Sarah1281]

It's really not practical to expect the Warden to focus solely on the Blight and not anything else even w/out a LI. I mean, nobody else does and they're making her run all of Ferelden to deal with their problems before helping. Her problem is she wants a Messiah and not a Warden.

[Sarah1281]

glenboy24 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

By the time Wynne talks to you about this, the relationship is at "adore". It's not her business. If she really were worried about the blight above all things, she wouldn't on three (or four) different occasions try to kill the warden.

Again, Ejoslin, this isn't a valid point. Yes, she cares about the Blight, but thats because she cares about the Future of Fereldan. Should the Blight be defeated and the Warden lives what good would said Warden be for the People and thier collective future when he/she is the kind of person who Destroys the sacred remains of someone who tried to free the world from Slavery, or Talks a group of Cursed creatures into Destroying a people that are trying to rebuild thier shattered culture? She wants the Warden to be Fereldan's Champion and Savior, not thier version of the Anti-Christ; we'll leave that job to Morrigan's God Bady.

Wynne is very easy to talk into going along with the Dalish slaughter. Just say 'it's not my job to save the elves' and she agrees and happily helps you slaughter them. It's Zevran that freaks out on you. And does she really think that you're worse than the darkspawn? Really? They would destroy the Urn, too, and kill both the werewolves and the Dalish, not to mention anyone else you come across. Think about the new DLC and imagine Alistair wasn't there because he happened to be with you when Wynne tried to kill you. That is what she feels is better than you making some morally ambiguous choices? 

[Emerald Melios]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's really not practical to expect the Warden to focus solely on the Blight and not anything else even w/out a LI. I mean, nobody else does and they're making her run all of Ferelden to deal with their problems before helping. Her problem is she wants a Messiah and not a Warden.

Bingo

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

By the time Wynne talks to you about this, the relationship is at "adore". It's not her business. If she really were worried about the blight above all things, she wouldn't on three (or four) different occasions try to kill the warden.

Again, Ejoslin, this isn't a valid point. Yes, she cares about the Blight, but thats because she cares about the Future of Fereldan. Should the Blight be defeated and the Warden lives what good would said Warden be for the People and thier collective future when he/she is the kind of person who Destroys the sacred remains of someone who tried to free the world from Slavery, or Talks a group of Cursed creatures into Destroying a people that are trying to rebuild thier shattered culture? She wants the Warden to be Fereldan's Champion and Savior, not thier version of the Anti-Christ; we'll leave that job to Morrigan's God Bady.

Wynne is very easy to talk into going along with the Dalish slaughter. Just say 'it's not my job to save the elves' and she agrees and happily helps you slaughter them. It's Zevran that freaks out on you. And does she really think that you're worse than the darkspawn? Really? They would destroy the Urn, too, and kill both the werewolves and the Dalish, not to mention anyone else you come across. Think about the new DLC and imagine Alistair wasn't there because he happened to be with you when Wynne tried to kill you. That is what she feels is better than you making some morally ambiguous choices? 

What?! She doesn't approve of you killing the Dalish. She speaks out against the idea. The fact that she goes along with it has more to do with that, at the time, she'd be killed by both you and the Weres, so either A) She had to go along with it, or She may feel that she can still save you from yourself.

As for the Ashes, regardless of Alistair's presense, destroying the Ashes is going too Far. Commiting such a Crime against all this is good Forces her hand, she has to take the risk of killing you and hoping she could somehow keep Alistair alive. The same goes for the Circle Tower if you're willing to kill innocent Mage, both Adult and Children. Despite knowing someone's importance, there are lines that can not be crossed when you have dedicated your life to upholding Good, and Wynne's harsh lessons turned her into a person fighting for something better than herself, hence the reason the Sprits have always watched her and eventually preserve her life.