78 réponses à ce sujet

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's really not practical to expect the Warden to focus solely on the Blight and not anything else even w/out a LI. I mean, nobody else does and they're making her run all of Ferelden to deal with their problems before helping. Her problem is she wants a Messiah and not a Warden.

It may not be practical to ask someone to make certain Sacrifices, but when the needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the one in such a profound capacity one has to try to persuade those hard choices to be made. And, yes, perhapes she does want a Savior at first, but over time she does come to see that what the Warden is capable off should he/she stick to the cause of the Just is enough; hence the reason she relents to the Relationship.

[Sarah1281]

glenboy24 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

By the time Wynne talks to you about this, the relationship is at "adore". It's not her business. If she really were worried about the blight above all things, she wouldn't on three (or four) different occasions try to kill the warden.

Again, Ejoslin, this isn't a valid point. Yes, she cares about the Blight, but thats because she cares about the Future of Fereldan. Should the Blight be defeated and the Warden lives what good would said Warden be for the People and thier collective future when he/she is the kind of person who Destroys the sacred remains of someone who tried to free the world from Slavery, or Talks a group of Cursed creatures into Destroying a people that are trying to rebuild thier shattered culture? She wants the Warden to be Fereldan's Champion and Savior, not thier version of the Anti-Christ; we'll leave that job to Morrigan's God Bady.

Wynne is very easy to talk into going along with the Dalish slaughter. Just say 'it's not my job to save the elves' and she agrees and happily helps you slaughter them. It's Zevran that freaks out on you. And does she really think that you're worse than the darkspawn? Really? They would destroy the Urn, too, and kill both the werewolves and the Dalish, not to mention anyone else you come across. Think about the new DLC and imagine Alistair wasn't there because he happened to be with you when Wynne tried to kill you. That is what she feels is better than you making some morally ambiguous choices? 

What?! She doesn't approve of you killing the Dalish. She speaks out against the idea. The fact that she goes along with it has more to do with that, at the time, she'd be killed by both you and the Weres, so either A) She had to go along with it, or She may feel that she can still save you from yourself.

As for the Ashes, regardless of Alistair's presense, destroying the Ashes is going too Far. Commiting such a Crime against all this is good Forces her hand, she has to take the risk of killing you and hoping she could somehow keep Alistair alive. The same goes for the Circle Tower if you're willing to kill innocent Mage, both Adult and Children. Despite knowing someone's importance, there are lines that can not be crossed when you have dedicated your life to upholding Good, and Wynne's harsh lessons turned her into a person fighting for something better than herself, hence the reason the Sprits have always watched her and eventually preserve her life.

That wasn't really the impression I got. She cares more about the mages, obviously, because she is  mage herself and because bad things may happen to her personally should the Tower be annulled. If you annull the Tower and manage not to kill her, she still wants to go with you and Templars for some reason let the abomnation come. Yeah...they kind of suck at their jobs.

If you tell her it's not your job to save the Dalish she looks hesitant but she says 'I guess you're right' and no disapproval. And she never once mentions how holy or sacred the ashes are and that destroying them is a crime against the Maker or whatever. She says you are taking away peoples' hope despite their lack of ever finding out.

And if Wynne really thinks the outcome of The Darkspawn Chronicles is a better alternative to you than she's a ****ng idiot. There is NOTHING you could do in the entire game on your quest to stop the Blight that would make letting the darkpawn win a better alternative.

[Sarah1281]

glenboy24 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's really not practical to expect the Warden to focus solely on the Blight and not anything else even w/out a LI. I mean, nobody else does and they're making her run all of Ferelden to deal with their problems before helping. Her problem is she wants a Messiah and not a Warden.

It may not be practical to ask someone to make certain Sacrifices, but when the needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the one in such a profound capacity one has to try to persuade those hard choices to be made. And, yes, perhapes she does want a Savior at first, but over time she does come to see that what the Warden is capable off should he/she stick to the cause of the Just is enough; hence the reason she relents to the Relationship.

Why does she think you can't do both? How woud it distract you? You're thinking about your crush when you're supposed to make a decision? Your LI wants you to do something and you pick the decision that makes them happy? For Lelina and Alistair (and, at times, Zevran) that should make her happy because then she knows the Warden will stick to the side of good to please their beloved. Is she afraid that the Warden will be less effective in a fight because they will constantly be making sure their perfectly competent LI isn't gettng hurt? What's the problem? 

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why does she think you can't do both? How woud it distract you? You're thinking about your crush when you're supposed to make a decision? Your LI wants you to do something and you pick the decision that makes them happy? For Lelina and Alistair (and, at times, Zevran) that should make her happy because then she knows the Warden will stick to the side of good to please their beloved. Is she afraid that the Warden will be less effective in a fight because they will constantly be making sure their perfectly competent LI isn't gettng hurt? What's the problem? 

Wynne is an idiot. Simple as that.

[RogueWriter3201]

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

[quote]glenboy24 wrote...

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

[quote]glenboy24 wrote...

[quote]ejoslin wrote...

*snip*

quote]

*snip*

[/quote] 

*snip* 

[/quote]

What?! She doesn't approve of you killing the Dalish. She speaks out against the idea. The fact that she goes along with it has more to do with that, at the time, she'd be killed by both you and the Weres, so either A) She had to go along with it, or She may feel that she can still save you from yourself.

As for the Ashes, regardless of Alistair's presense, destroying the Ashes is going too Far. Commiting such a Crime against all this is good Forces her hand, she has to take the risk of killing you and hoping she could somehow keep Alistair alive. The same goes for the Circle Tower if you're willing to kill innocent Mage, both Adult and Children. Despite knowing someone's importance, there are lines that can not be crossed when you have dedicated your life to upholding Good, and Wynne's harsh lessons turned her into a person fighting for something better than herself, hence the reason the Sprits have always watched her and eventually preserve her life.[/quote]

That wasn't really the impression I got. She cares more about the mages, obviously, because she is  mage herself and because bad things may happen to her personally should the Tower be annulled. If you annull the Tower and manage not to kill her, she still wants to go with you and Templars for some reason let the abomnation come. Yeah...they kind of suck at their jobs.

If you tell her it's not your job to save the Dalish she looks hesitant but she says 'I guess you're right' and no disapproval. And she never once mentions how holy or sacred the ashes are and that destroying them is a crime against the Maker or whatever. She says you are taking away peoples' hope despite their lack of ever finding out.

And if Wynne really thinks the outcome of The Darkspawn Chronicles is a better alternative to you than she's a ****ng idiot. There is NOTHING you could do in the entire game on your quest to stop the Blight that would make letting the darkpawn win a better alternative. [/quote]

Wow, you're *really* reading into Wynne from a distorted perspective, though I'm sure you have your reasons. Wynne doesn't care more about the Circle out of sense of self preservation, she care about annuling the circle because doing so means the deaths of Men, Women, and Children who have done *nothing* to warrent such a fate. The fact that she goes with you even if you permit the culling without telling her is a loop-hole in the story, in essence a Glitch that the Devs overlooked; given Wynne's character and her actions should you go Full On Evil later in the game speak to this.

And, yes, you don't recieve any dissaprove point losses but she Does speak out against it; in the Abomitible Wynne Thread there's even a screen shot of her decrying the actions. As to the Outcome of the Darkspawn Chronicles, Wynne can't see that outcome, from her perspective Alistair is a good man who wants to save Fereldan as much as she does, so of course she would see him as Fereldan's next best hope should the Warden die or need to be stoped. This doesn't make her an idiot. Frankly, at this point, you're just looking for reasons to Hate a character that does nothing to be hated for unless you're playing a Selfish, Evil character. And, I guess to each thier own from an RP perspective. I choose to Save the World, not leave it in Darkness; as such, I only get the Best from Wynne.  

*Edit- Sorry about the Box around the next. Let the snip'd comments get to long...

Modifié par glenboy24, 24 mai 2010 - 12:40 .

[Sarah1281]

How is asking Greagoir if she can go with you once you convice him that Irving can't be trusted a glitch? How does killing Alistair if he's in your party help save Ferelden?



I do not play selfish evil characters and yet I still don't like her. I don't look for reasons, they are kind of hard to miss. She wants you to be the perfect Messiah willing to sacrifice everything for everyone and I only signed up to end the Blight. She'll trust me to end the Blight but not to have a boyfriend? I didn't ask for her opinion on the matter and I don't appreciate being told I 'can't handle it.' I haven't found anything she ever says to be wise at all and she spouts mostly platitudes. She's racist against elves, she's an indoctrinated Chantry slave, she feels she knows more about being a GW than you do, and for all her mistakes she's clearly learned nothing.

[Tirigon]

glenboy24 wrote...



I choose to Save the World, not leave it in Darkness; as such, I only get the Best from Wynne. 

Even if you play all-out kitten-saviour she is annoying with her attitude of interfering in your romances. Helloooo, I already AM the hero you want, why the f*ck must the hero not get the girl?!
Besides, I dislike her way to get pissed if you say that personal wishes matter. To be fair, Sten disagrees with such statements, too, but he has a philosophy that makes him think so, while Wynne simply wants to be soooo selfless.

*Edit- Sorry about the Box around the next. Let the snip'd comments get to long...

Only quote what´s necessary. Problem solved.

[Sarah1281]

Also, how is simply annulling the Circle which does NOT mean outright killing people but rather interrogating them (torture will probably be involved, admittedly, but they're not going to kill everyone) more morally bankrupt than killing the elves? For all we know, Cullen is right and you're just being cautious. Sure Irving says it's fine but he really screwed up where Uldred was concerned so how can we be certain he knows if the blood mages are gone? If you yourself are a blood mage you can send Moira down to wait with the survivors and know at least one blood mage is still there and yet she has a bigger problem with that than the Dalish massacre.



Her assuming the role of my mentor is also not asked for. I was doing just fine without her lecturing me on being selfless and being selfless is hardly a requirement for killing darkspawn. It is for the US, of course, but does Wynne know about that? Hardly.

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

How is asking Greagoir if she can go with you once you convice him that Irving can't be trusted a glitch? How does killing Alistair if he's in your party help save Ferelden?

I do not play selfish evil characters and yet I still don't like her. I don't look for reasons, they are kind of hard to miss. She wants you to be the perfect Messiah willing to sacrifice everything for everyone and I only signed up to end the Blight. She'll trust me to end the Blight but not to have a boyfriend? I didn't ask for her opinion on the matter and I don't appreciate being told I 'can't handle it.' I haven't found anything she ever says to be wise at all and she spouts mostly platitudes. She's racist against elves, she's an indoctrinated Chantry slave, she feels she knows more about being a GW than you do, and for all her mistakes she's clearly learned nothing.

Should you keep Erving Alive though convince Gregoir to Cull the Tower, there is nothing to indicate that Gregoir would wipe out everyone outright. There are still methods to ensure someone is an Abomination, much like the Harrowing. Should someone in the Tower resist, than they would be killed outright; Petra, Kanan, and the Children would surely not resist said tests, the only ones who would are the True Abominations and the Blood Mages. Should Alistair be killed, he can be returned to Life, either by the Ashes or by Wynne's Magic. She could easily ensure that you, however, don't come back.

If you don't play selfish or Evil Characters, than how can you justify Culling the Circle, Killing the Dalish, or Destroying the Sacred Ashes? You mentioned just doing it for the Achievements; frankly even I can't stomach doing that, but if you do the whole reload than choose the better path than at least that's something. As to your others reasons, Yes Wynne wants you to be the Savior of Fereldan, and at first she does push you to make Sacrifices in your own life to ensure nothing will hinder you from saving the World, in essence. However, overtime, she does come to have greater confidence in you and even cheers on your relationship once there is little to no doubt you have the best interests of the World and the People at heart. And she is *Not* Racist against Elves; that's an blind comment to make and there is No basis for it.

Did you even play "Wynne's Regret"? She even recognizes her Failings with Anerin and wishes that He would not have been Killed and is even almost moved to tears when she learns that he didn't die and is now helping the Dalish as a Healer. Not once in the game does she make a racsist remark towards anyone. Jesus, where the hell did you get that? Also, she's no Slave to the Chantry; being able to see the good in the Chantry and what it stands for does not make one a Slave. Was she alright with Anerin being killed? No! It tore at her Soul. Were she a Slave of the Chantry she would have just gone, "Oh well," But she didn't. God, I know you want to hate this character, but Jesus...I'm sorry to be Harsh, but you're arguments have gone from informative and thought-out to just flat-out "Lashing".

[ejoslin]

glenboy24 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

By the time Wynne talks to you about this, the relationship is at "adore". It's not her business. If she really were worried about the blight above all things, she wouldn't on three (or four) different occasions try to kill the warden.

Again, Ejoslin, this isn't a valid point. Yes, she cares about the Blight, but thats because she cares about the Future of Fereldan. Should the Blight be defeated and the Warden lives what good would said Warden be for the People and thier collective future when he/she is the kind of person who Destroys the sacred remains of someone who tried to free the world from Slavery, or Talks a group of Cursed creatures into Destroying a people that are trying to rebuild thier shattered culture? She wants the Warden to be Fereldan's Champion and Savior, not thier version of the Anti-Christ; we'll leave that job to Morrigan's God Bady.

Why is Wynne trying to kill the warden NOT a valid point when someone is claiming she has the right to butt into your romance because she puts saving Ferelden above all else?  I was responding to a particular post.  

I think you just don't LIKE that point.

Edit: Here is your ENTIRE paragraph that I was responding to.

Wynne never compremises her standpoint to keep the Warden on the road to the Salvation of Ferelden and the people. So, if we become infatuated with Leli, Mori, Alistair, etc, she intercedes to warn us that Loving something deeply, than losing it horribly, can scar us in such a profound way that all else seems of little importance. As the sole Hope for Fereldan, the Gray Warden can seldom afford this. However, as time progresses, even Wynne comes to admire the Love between the Warden and his/her respective LI, but still warns that things may not end with White picket fences. In the end, Wynne is a teacher, and despite our belief that we know "Everything" that's not the case; Wynne simply takes the time to fill in the blanks or offer a new perspective, to not welcome this is to play a truly blind or myopic character.

Wynne trying to kill your warden is a HUGE compromise keeping the warden on the road to the Salvation of Ferelden and the people.  In fact, she tries to make it impossible for you to do so.  Her KILLING you is far more of an interference with this than any relationship you could be in.

Second edit: wow, long edit update.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 mai 2010 - 01:15 .

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Also, how is simply annulling the Circle which does NOT mean outright killing people but rather interrogating them (torture will probably be involved, admittedly, but they're not going to kill everyone) more morally bankrupt than killing the elves? For all we know, Cullen is right and you're just being cautious. Sure Irving says it's fine but he really screwed up where Uldred was concerned so how can we be certain he knows if the blood mages are gone? If you yourself are a blood mage you can send Moira down to wait with the survivors and know at least one blood mage is still there and yet she has a bigger problem with that than the Dalish massacre.

Her assuming the role of my mentor is also not asked for. I was doing just fine without her lecturing me on being selfless and being selfless is hardly a requirement for killing darkspawn. It is for the US, of course, but does Wynne know about that? Hardly.

There is nothing to indicate Torture. The Harrowing is not Torture, and there are likely other means of testing if someone is possesed as well. And Irving was always Suspicious of Uldred, Wynne even mentions this when you speak to her. No one believed Uldred had a Pride Demon with-in him, and with the Blood Mages in the Tower likely using thier Dark Magic to cast a veil of misdirection and doubt over so much it's easy to fool many of not all of those Senior Enchanters not in on Uldred's Plot; you can't lay the blame at Irving's feet alone. Also, there's being Cautious, and then there's be Paranoid and Heartless. Given that there are methods at the disposal of the Templars to test for corruption that *don't* include toture, there is always hope the Circle could be salvaged to some extent.

Also, even if the Role of Mentor is not asked for, it's in her Nature. She wants what's best for you and for Fereldan, and much like a Parent she knows you may not understand now want it at first, but she's going to do what she can to keep you save.

[Sarah1281]

Please don't assume I was just making a random comment and pulled the elf thing out of nowhere. I have reasons to believe she is racist against elves, afer all.

From another thread...

There are several things that point to her being racist against elves and hating on less in particular but you could rationalize them away. She's more upset at you dating Zevran than anyone else even though Leliana was a killer, too, and Morriga is an apostate. She approves of deflowering Gheyna but disapproves for Cammen. Meeting Aneirin (who she drove away) she appears to have learned nothing and wants to take away from his nice, peaceful existance to return him to the Templars who called him a blood mage at fourteen and ran him through because 'the Circle needs [him].' Yeah, Irving tells her that, too, but does she let that stop her from following me around? No. When Caladrius offers to use blood magic to sacrifice the elves she says not to because blood magic is evil and nothing about the elves' welfare and you lose more approval by telling her to shut up but listening anyway then you do by actually sacrificing them. Not to mention she can be talked into going along with slaughtering the Dalish by telling her that it's not your job to save them. You think that line would work on, say, Leliana or Alistair?

I also realize that the Gheyna/Cammen thing is a glitch but until it is fixed there mustbe an in-universe explanation.



I did play Wynne's regret and it covinced me that she learned nothing. How could she even think Aneirin was better off back with the Templars who tried to kill him and where he was so reasonable an how can she claim they need every mage they can get when she doesn't think that applies to herself? These arguments have been gone over again and again in the Abominable Wynne thread but since you appear to have never heard them before I'm going to assume you didn't read all of it. Just because I feel she is racist towards elves does not mean that I believe she wants them all killed. I hate Wynne but that does not mean that I want her dead and I always end up recruiting her because I don't have the heart to keep her stuck at the Circle when it obviously makes her miserable.



I have reason to believe she is a Chantry slave as well in that despite them taking her son away from her and supposedly brutally murdering her apprentice she still believes that pulling away from them is a bad idea. Yes, a blood mage revolution was never going to end well even if Uldred hadn't gotten himself possessed but she's not a fan of other options like, say, mages policing each other and is insistent that despite all the **** they put mages through that they need the Chantry. They really don't as long as they can find an acceptable alternative. It really does sound like Stockholm Syndrome. There is good in the Chantry in its charities but they abuse their power a great deal and she is fine with that and has given up trying to change anything because they've broken her. She's a fan of just accepting your lot in life, remember? And she told the Revered Mother that was crap when she was younger and not a slave to their dogma.

[RogueWriter3201]

ejoslin wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

By the time Wynne talks to you about this, the relationship is at "adore". It's not her business. If she really were worried about the blight above all things, she wouldn't on three (or four) different occasions try to kill the warden.

Again, Ejoslin, this isn't a valid point. Yes, she cares about the Blight, but thats because she cares about the Future of Fereldan. Should the Blight be defeated and the Warden lives what good would said Warden be for the People and thier collective future when he/she is the kind of person who Destroys the sacred remains of someone who tried to free the world from Slavery, or Talks a group of Cursed creatures into Destroying a people that are trying to rebuild thier shattered culture? She wants the Warden to be Fereldan's Champion and Savior, not thier version of the Anti-Christ; we'll leave that job to Morrigan's God Bady.

Why is Wynne trying to kill the warden NOT a valid point when someone is claiming she has the right to butt into your romance because she puts saving Ferelden above all else?  I was responding to a particular post.  

I think you just don't LIKE that point.

Edit: Here is your ENTIRE paragraph that I was responding to.

Wynne never compremises her standpoint to keep the Warden on the road to the Salvation of Ferelden and the people. So, if we become infatuated with Leli, Mori, Alistair, etc, she intercedes to warn us that Loving something deeply, than losing it horribly, can scar us in such a profound way that all else seems of little importance. As the sole Hope for Fereldan, the Gray Warden can seldom afford this. However, as time progresses, even Wynne comes to admire the Love between the Warden and his/her respective LI, but still warns that things may not end with White picket fences. In the end, Wynne is a teacher, and despite our belief that we know "Everything" that's not the case; Wynne simply takes the time to fill in the blanks or offer a new perspective, to not welcome this is to play a truly blind or myopic character.

Wynne trying to kill your warden is a HUGE compromise keeping the warden on the road to the Salvation of Ferelden and the people.  In fact, she tries to make it impossible for you to do so.  Her KILLING you is far more of an interference with this than any relationship you could be in.

Second edit: wow, long edit update.

It's not that I don't like the Point, it's that it does nothing to indicate that she's comprimising her Beliefs. She's trying to perserve the World, and even if the Warden defeats the Blight how worse will things be the second time around if the Warden uses his/her influence to become a Tyrant or facilitate the Rule of a Tyrant. The Warden are supposed to be a Beacon of Hope; but should the Warden choose to slaughter the Innocent and keep the downtrodened underfoot then he/she is not better than the Darkspawn. You're Trading one Evil for Another. She Believes in the Good the Warden can do, but if the Warden proves to be a Force for Evil, than she'll put the People and Hope for the Future First, as she's always tried to do.

[Sarah1281]

glenboy24 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Also, how is simply annulling the Circle which does NOT mean outright killing people but rather interrogating them (torture will probably be involved, admittedly, but they're not going to kill everyone) more morally bankrupt than killing the elves? For all we know, Cullen is right and you're just being cautious. Sure Irving says it's fine but he really screwed up where Uldred was concerned so how can we be certain he knows if the blood mages are gone? If you yourself are a blood mage you can send Moira down to wait with the survivors and know at least one blood mage is still there and yet she has a bigger problem with that than the Dalish massacre.

Her assuming the role of my mentor is also not asked for. I was doing just fine without her lecturing me on being selfless and being selfless is hardly a requirement for killing darkspawn. It is for the US, of course, but does Wynne know about that? Hardly.

There is nothing to indicate Torture. The Harrowing is not Torture, and there are likely other means of testing if someone is possesed as well. And Irving was always Suspicious of Uldred, Wynne even mentions this when you speak to her. No one believed Uldred had a Pride Demon with-in him, and with the Blood Mages in the Tower likely using thier Dark Magic to cast a veil of misdirection and doubt over so much it's easy to fool many of not all of those Senior Enchanters not in on Uldred's Plot; you can't lay the blame at Irving's feet alone. Also, there's being Cautious, and then there's be Paranoid and Heartless. Given that there are methods at the disposal of the Templars to test for corruption that *don't* include toture, there is always hope the Circle could be salvaged to some extent.

Also, even if the Role of Mentor is not asked for, it's in her Nature. She wants what's best for you and for Fereldan, and much like a Parent she knows you may not understand now want it at first, but she's going to do what she can to keep you save.

I only mentioned the possibility of torture because if she feared that might happen then that is a valid reason to keep the Circle from being annulled. If you feel that that will not happen that actually makes her decision to kill you if you support annullment even more of a WTF decision.

The role of mentor may be in her nature bu she imparts nothing useful and it does not have to be appreciated. She assumes age=wisdom and we're shown quite often that it does not.

[Sarah1281]

It's not that I don't like the Point, it's that it does nothing to indicate that she's comprimising her Beliefs. She's trying to perserve the World, and even if the Warden defeats the Blight how worse will things be the second time around if the Warden uses his/her influence to become a Tyrant or facilitate the Rule of a Tyrant. The Warden are supposed to be a Beacon of Hope; but should the Warden choose to slaughter the Innocent and keep the downtrodened underfoot then he/she is not better than the Darkspawn. You're Trading one Evil for Another. She Believes in the Good the Warden can do, but if the Warden proves to be a Force for Evil, than she'll put the People and Hope for the Future First, as she's always tried to do.

She attempts to kill you if you convince Greagoir to annull the Circle despite your belief nothing bad will really happen to these people but it's just more work for the Templars.



How does that make you a tyrant-to-be?



She tries to kill you if you want to not enable the Chantry's tyranny by destroying the ashes?



How does that make you a tyrant-to-be?

[ejoslin]

glenboy24 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

By the time Wynne talks to you about this, the relationship is at "adore". It's not her business. If she really were worried about the blight above all things, she wouldn't on three (or four) different occasions try to kill the warden.

Again, Ejoslin, this isn't a valid point. Yes, she cares about the Blight, but thats because she cares about the Future of Fereldan. Should the Blight be defeated and the Warden lives what good would said Warden be for the People and thier collective future when he/she is the kind of person who Destroys the sacred remains of someone who tried to free the world from Slavery, or Talks a group of Cursed creatures into Destroying a people that are trying to rebuild thier shattered culture? She wants the Warden to be Fereldan's Champion and Savior, not thier version of the Anti-Christ; we'll leave that job to Morrigan's God Bady.

Why is Wynne trying to kill the warden NOT a valid point when someone is claiming she has the right to butt into your romance because she puts saving Ferelden above all else?  I was responding to a particular post.  

I think you just don't LIKE that point.

Edit: Here is your ENTIRE paragraph that I was responding to.

Wynne never compremises her standpoint to keep the Warden on the road to the Salvation of Ferelden and the people. So, if we become infatuated with Leli, Mori, Alistair, etc, she intercedes to warn us that Loving something deeply, than losing it horribly, can scar us in such a profound way that all else seems of little importance. As the sole Hope for Fereldan, the Gray Warden can seldom afford this. However, as time progresses, even Wynne comes to admire the Love between the Warden and his/her respective LI, but still warns that things may not end with White picket fences. In the end, Wynne is a teacher, and despite our belief that we know "Everything" that's not the case; Wynne simply takes the time to fill in the blanks or offer a new perspective, to not welcome this is to play a truly blind or myopic character.

Wynne trying to kill your warden is a HUGE compromise keeping the warden on the road to the Salvation of Ferelden and the people.  In fact, she tries to make it impossible for you to do so.  Her KILLING you is far more of an interference with this than any relationship you could be in.

Second edit: wow, long edit update.

It's not that I don't like the Point, it's that it does nothing to indicate that she's comprimising her Beliefs. She's trying to perserve the World, and even if the Warden defeats the Blight how worse will things be the second time around if the Warden uses his/her influence to become a Tyrant or facilitate the Rule of a Tyrant. The Warden are supposed to be a Beacon of Hope; but should the Warden choose to slaughter the Innocent and keep the downtrodened underfoot then he/she is not better than the Darkspawn. You're Trading one Evil for Another. She Believes in the Good the Warden can do, but if the Warden proves to be a Force for Evil, than she'll put the People and Hope for the Future First, as she's always tried to do.

Wynne doesn't leave if you slaughter the dalish.  Wynne doesn't try to kill you if you side with the slavers.  She tries to kill you and Alistair if you defile the ashes.  AFTER you do so.  You can save everyone, be the bestest of best people.  Your argument just assumes so much that actually is not established.

She tries to kill you when it would accomplish nothing.  Not because you're a tyrant.  Not because you've been slaughtering people.  Because you defiled a relic that no one really believes exists.  How does that destroy anyone's hope?  It doesn't.

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Please don't assume I was just making a random comment and pulled the elf thing out of nowhere. I have reasons to believe she is racist against elves, afer all.

From another thread...
There are several things that point to her being racist against elves and hating on less in particular but you could rationalize them away. She's more upset at you dating Zevran than anyone else even though Leliana was a killer, too, and Morriga is an apostate. She approves of deflowering Gheyna but disapproves for Cammen. Meeting Aneirin (who she drove away) she appears to have learned nothing and wants to take away from his nice, peaceful existance to return him to the Templars who called him a blood mage at fourteen and ran him through because 'the Circle needs [him].' Yeah, Irving tells her that, too, but does she let that stop her from following me around? No. When Caladrius offers to use blood magic to sacrifice the elves she says not to because blood magic is evil and nothing about the elves' welfare and you lose more approval by telling her to shut up but listening anyway then you do by actually sacrificing them. Not to mention she can be talked into going along with slaughtering the Dalish by telling her that it's not your job to save them. You think that line would work on, say, Leliana or Alistair?

I also realize that the Gheyna/Cammen thing is a glitch but until it is fixed there mustbe an in-universe explanation.

I did play Wynne's regret and it covinced me that she learned nothing. How could she even think Aneirin was better off back with the Templars who tried to kill him and where he was so reasonable an how can she claim they need every mage they can get when she doesn't think that applies to herself? These arguments have been gone over again and again in the Abominable Wynne thread but since you appear to have never heard them before I'm going to assume you didn't read all of it. Just because I feel she is racist towards elves does not mean that I believe she wants them all killed. I hate Wynne but that does not mean that I want her dead and I always end up recruiting her because I don't have the heart to keep her stuck at the Circle when it obviously makes her miserable.

I have reason to believe she is a Chantry slave as well in that despite them taking her son away from her and supposedly brutally murdering her apprentice she still believes that pulling away from them is a bad idea. Yes, a blood mage revolution was never going to end well even if Uldred hadn't gotten himself possessed but she's not a fan of other options like, say, mages policing each other and is insistent that despite all the **** they put mages through that they need the Chantry. They really don't as long as they can find an acceptable alternative. It really does sound like Stockholm Syndrome. There is good in the Chantry in its charities but they abuse their power a great deal and she is fine with that and has given up trying to change anything because they've broken her. She's a fan of just accepting your lot in life, remember? And she told the Revered Mother that was crap when she was younger and not a slave to their dogma.

Sorry, but it still seems like you're reaching, or trying really Hard to maintain your standpoint from a Purely RP perspective. How can you even Feel that She learned Nothing From Anerin. She Even Tells you She Did Learn! After Anerin she became less Harsh and and a Better mentor, if she didn't care or Hated Elves it would not have changed her at all. And the reason she asks Anerin to go back is because the Circle really *Could* us Him, and that doesn't mean he has to abandon the Dalish; he could easily return to the Circle, help them rebuild, teach them something of what he has learned during his time with the Dalish, and than return to his people. As to her being a Slave to the Chantry or Stockholme Syndrome? Firstly, as I've mentioned, were she a Slave to the Chantry Anerin being killed would not have effected her, she would have accepted thier Judgement and moved along, however she lamented it.

And the reason she sees the Benefit of the Chantry overseeing the Mages is due in Large part to what we see Happen with the Blood Mages and Uldred. Without someone keeping the Mages from digging too deeply into the dangerous aspects of the Arcane you would rish either the Creation of Another Tevinter Imperium or you could have Blood Mages and Abominations more a rampant threat then they already are. She Explains this to Alistair even; Magic *is* dangerous, and there had to be checks and Balances and the Chantry is that Check and Balance. Can the Mages Police themselves, in theory, yes. However, the risk represented by allowing them to do as they wish is too great. and Wynne sees this. How does that make her a Slave?  

Oh, and the fact that the Arguments keep appearing in the A.W Thread means that they are not completely Valid, or folks would not keep bringing up counters to them; Cudos though on trying to turn that observation I made into a Snarky come-back; really adds weight to your Mature Standpoint even though I never leveled it against you alone.

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's not that I don't like the Point, it's that it does nothing to indicate that she's comprimising her Beliefs. She's trying to perserve the World, and even if the Warden defeats the Blight how worse will things be the second time around if the Warden uses his/her influence to become a Tyrant or facilitate the Rule of a Tyrant. The Warden are supposed to be a Beacon of Hope; but should the Warden choose to slaughter the Innocent and keep the downtrodened underfoot then he/she is not better than the Darkspawn. You're Trading one Evil for Another. She Believes in the Good the Warden can do, but if the Warden proves to be a Force for Evil, than she'll put the People and Hope for the Future First, as she's always tried to do.

She attempts to kill you if you convince Greagoir to annull the Circle despite your belief nothing bad will really happen to these people but it's just more work for the Templars.

How does that make you a tyrant-to-be?

She tries to kill you if you want to not enable the Chantry's tyranny by destroying the ashes?

How does that make you a tyrant-to-be?

It makes you a Tyrant because you're *possibly* robbing innocent people of thier Lives. Even if it's more work for the templars its still the Right thing to do. Look at the Situation with Connor in Redcliff. Would it be easier or quicker to kill him as opposed to going into the Fade to save the poor boy's life? Yes. Should you do it? Of course not. He's a Boy who wanted to safe his father and got played by a Demon. How does that warrant his Death?

And there is Nothing, Nothing, to indicate that the Chantry is a Tyrant. They try to protect the innocent. If it wasn't for them the City Elves wouldn't even be Second class Citizens, they'd still be slaves. The Chantry tried to protect people from Demons. They feed the Hungrey and care for the Sick. How is that Tyranny?

[Sarah1281]

I believe that the point of threads is not to convince one peron that they are wrong but to enjoy debating. This debate is really frustrating me so I'm bowing out. Before I do, I would like to point out that I never said that because they were in another thread meant that they were valid.

You wrote...

God, I know you want to hate this character, but Jesus...I'm sorry to be Harsh, but you're arguments have gone from informative and thought-out to just flat-out "Lashing".

Then you say that you weren't just talking about me. I feel that from what you wrote above that that was kind of referring to me especially since I'm one of the only people that has posted in this thread in the last few hours.



We just interpret the character differently and that doesn't have to mean either viewpoint is invalid. You just focus on her more positive traits and see positive explanations while I see negative ones. That does not mean that not liking the character means that I can't play a good Warden.



You don't need to look for a reason not to like a character as, just as in real life, you can just dislike them for being annoying. I dislike Leliana, for instance, but that doesn't mean I think she's a hypocrite or a horrible person (though she admits to being racist against elves although she's working on that).



I wasn't trying to make a snarky comeback which might explain why it wasn't one. Your extreme reaction to my view of her as racist, supported by in-game events just as surely as your 'she's not racist' viewpoint made it seem like you hadn't heard that before so I was just pointing out that I wasn't the first or only one to feel that way.

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I believe that the point of threads is not to convince one peron that they are wrong but to enjoy debating. This debate is really frustrating me so I'm bowing out. Before I do, I would like to point out that I never said that because they were in another thread meant that they were valid.

You wrote...
God, I know you want to hate this character, but Jesus...I'm sorry to be Harsh, but you're arguments have gone from informative and thought-out to just flat-out "Lashing".

Then you say that you weren't just talking about me. I feel that from what you wrote above that that was kind of referring to me especially since I'm one of the only people that has posted in this thread in the last few hours.

We just interpret the character differently and that doesn't have to mean either viewpoint is invalid. You just focus on her more positive traits and see positive explanations while I see negative ones. That does not mean that not liking the character means that I can't play a good Warden.

You don't need to look for a reason not to like a character as, just as in real life, you can just dislike them for being annoying. I dislike Leliana, for instance, but that doesn't mean I think she's a hypocrite or a horrible person (though she admits to being racist against elves although she's working on that).

I wasn't trying to make a snarky comeback which might explain why it wasn't one. Your extreme reaction to my view of her as racist, supported by in-game events just as surely as your 'she's not racist' viewpoint made it seem like you hadn't heard that before so I was just pointing out that I wasn't the first or only one to feel that way.

This is still a Healthy Debate, the fact that you're becomming Frustrated likely has more to do with the Fact that your points, though indicative of your playstyle, do not indicate the Character is Truly Annoying, a Racist, a Slave of the Chantry, etc. You simply don't like the Character because you feel they don't allow you to play the game the way you want it. But, the fact is if you want to play the Hero of Fereldan that means being able to see things from more than one perspective, and that's all Wynne tries to do. Every point you've made about why Wynne is bad in one form or another can be countered by actions she takes in the game or things she says.

Look, I'm sorry you can't see anything redeeming about this Character, because Wynne is a wonderful person with much to offer if you just stop to hear her out and give her time. As long as you're willing to Stand on the Road of Good she's the best kind of person to have at your side; Always caring, always thoughtful, and always wanting the best for you and everyone of the companions even if they don't quite realize what's best for them. Which, I think, is were you're dislike stems.

You don't like the idea that someone knows what's best for you or thinks they do; sadly, sometimes, life leaves us so one sided in our viewpoints that we can't see when we're doing something Selfish or something that endangers others. Wynne just wants to make sure you're not that kind of person, and once you do She ceases to be your Teacher/Lecture Source and becomes your Friend. If you choose to not give her that chance, such is your choice.

Also, I am sorry you thought I was attacking you for your comment, but the manner in which you utilized it in your post came off very Sarcastic and, well, Snarky. You could have made your point without usuing my previous and misinterpreted observations agaisnt me by inciting that I didn't, "Read the all the posts in the A.W. Thread," If you didn't mean that as a Jab, then I myself apologize.  

[Sarah1281]

I wasn't trying to attack you. The A.W. thread is 42 pages and takes awhile to get through so many people who come late won't read all of it. Since you reacted so extremely that indicated to me that you had either never heard that argument before or, I suppose, that you've heard it so often you're sick of it. I wasn't intentionally being sarcastic and so if that offended you then I apologize.



I understand Wynne tries to be a good person but I see a lot of very negative things about her that you disagree with but which don't endear her to me. You might be right about me not appreciating her feeling she knows what's best for me as I see nothing but her age to let her make all these assumptions about what's best for me from practically the moment we met. If you feel her to be wise and to honestly know better than you do then that would explain why it doesn't bother you.

[RogueWriter3201]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wasn't trying to attack you. The A.W. thread is 42 pages and takes awhile to get through so many people who come late won't read all of it. Since you reacted so extremely that indicated to me that you had either never heard that argument before or, I suppose, that you've heard it so often you're sick of it. I wasn't intentionally being sarcastic and so if that offended you then I apologize.

I understand Wynne tries to be a good person but I see a lot of very negative things about her that you disagree with but which don't endear her to me. You might be right about me not appreciating her feeling she knows what's best for me as I see nothing but her age to let her make all these assumptions about what's best for me from practically the moment we met. If you feel her to be wise and to honestly know better than you do then that would explain why it doesn't bother you.

I just feel that she has experienced far more than my Warden has at that point. As such, it's worth heeding her advice and trying to utilize her wisdom for the greater good. I don't think you should let her think for you. For the record, I always argue that my Relationship with Leli is not something bad, though I do inform her that I would consider everything she said since I think her consul is important. As I mentioned, I stick with my LI and Wynne later comes to see that *I* was correct and our Friendship becomes all the Stronger. I hope, over time, you might be able to see Wynne better, if not, than perhapes BioWare will bring her back for DA2 and her personality there might be more to your liking. You never know.

[BigBad]

Wow, catching up on this thread is work. First, let me say that I like Wynne as a character. Her motivations and concerns are mostly consistent, her party role in both combat and RP is clear and unambiguous, and she has a fairly interesting backstory. I like the whole "dead but reanimated by a Fade spirit" thing. It was neat. And it was neat again when they repackaged it in Awakening with Justice. I like that Wynne is fairly opinionated and will often hijack conversations, since it makes her feel more like a person than a follower NPC. I like that Wynne often expresses opinions that my characters flat-out disagree with, or lets her nosiness overcome her sense of propriety, or that just annoy me personally, because it, again, makes me feel like I'm really dealing with an old woman with a lot of power, and powerful old women tend to be nosy and overly concerned with the moral fiber of the young. ;P I don't need to agree with someone's every word to like them.



That said, it's perfectly okay to dislike Wynne. She can easily cross from "grandmotherly" to "patronizing" for a lotta folks, and no one likes being treated like a ten-year-old child in need of a mommy figure. She's also more confrontational than a lot of people think she should be, holding less awe/respect/whatever for the PC or his/her capabilities than is sometimes appropriate, and that can rub people the wrong way.

[Posioned]

I used to like Wynne, but the more I play the more she annoys me. Which is unfortunate.

[OldMan91]

And there is Nothing, Nothing, to indicate that the Chantry is a Tyrant. They try to protect the innocent. If it wasn't for them the City Elves wouldn't even be Second class Citizens, they'd still be slaves. The Chantry tried to protect people from Demons. They feed the Hungrey and care for the Sick. How is that Tyranny?

If it wasn't for the chantry, the elves would still have the Dales as their homeland. And it was Andraste who freed the elves, not the chantry. Big difference.

The chantry has in its' power a private military organization known as the templars. They kidnap the children of mages, call you a "heretic" if you don't want their blessing, addict their own templars with lyrium to keep them loyal and brook no religious opposition within their own organization as Leliana proves.

Wynne is a slave because she doesn't act against them. She may beg the templars not to kill Anerin or to take her child away, but she accepted both actions and did not retaliate. She's a resentful slave, but a slave nonetheless. She accepts their mandate and the status quo.

As Andrew Ryan famously says, "A man chooses, a slave obeys".

Modifié par OldMan91, 24 mai 2010 - 10:32 .