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[Tirigon]

glenboy24 wrote...

And the reason she sees the Benefit of the Chantry overseeing the Mages is due in Large part to what we see Happen with the Blood Mages and Uldred. Without someone keeping the Mages from digging too deeply into the dangerous aspects of the Arcane you would rish either the Creation of Another Tevinter Imperium or you could have Blood Mages and Abominations more a rampant threat then they already are. She Explains this to Alistair even; Magic *is* dangerous, and there had to be checks and Balances and the Chantry is that Check and Balance. Can the Mages Police themselves, in theory, yes. However, the risk represented by allowing them to do as they wish is too great. and Wynne sees this. How does that make her a Slave?  

Please remember that Uldred and most of his fellow conspirators turned to Blood Magic ONLY because of the Chantry. Without the Chantry and the templars enslaving the mages they wouldn´t have used blood magic to start with and therefore not have turned to abominations.

[Tirigon]

And there is Nothing, Nothing, to indicate that the Chantry is a Tyrant. They try to protect the innocent. If it wasn't for them the City Elves wouldn't even be Second class Citizens, they'd still be slaves. The Chantry tried to protect people from Demons. They feed the Hungrey and care for the Sick. How is that Tyranny?

That´s a ridiculously screwed world view.

As OldMan91 already said:

OldMan91 wrote...
If it wasn't for the chantry, the elves would still have the Dales as their homeland. And it was Andraste who freed the elves, not the chantry. Big difference.

The chantry has in its' power a private military organization known as the templars. They kidnap the children of mages, call you a "heretic" if you don't want their blessing, addict their own templars with lyrium to keep them loyal and brook no religious opposition within their own organization as Leliana proves.

Wynee is a slave because she doesn't act against them. She may beg the templars not to kill Anerin or to take her child away, but she accepted both actions and did not retaliate. She's a resentful slave, but a slave nonetheless. She accepts their mandate and the status quo.

As Andrew Ryan famously says, "A man chooses, a slave obeys".

I would also like to add that the Chantry only came to power by a bloody rebellion. In fact i would go as far as to say that Andraste did nothing different than what Uldred, Loghain or the City Elf rioters did, only more successful.

[devilsgrin]

OldMan91 wrote...

And there is Nothing, Nothing, to indicate that the Chantry is a Tyrant. They try to protect the innocent. If it wasn't for them the City Elves wouldn't even be Second class Citizens, they'd still be slaves. The Chantry tried to protect people from Demons. They feed the Hungrey and care for the Sick. How is that Tyranny?

If it wasn't for the chantry, the elves would still have the Dales as their homeland. And it was Andraste who freed the elves, not the chantry. Big difference.

The chantry has in its' power a private military organization known as the templars. They kidnap the children of mages, call you a "heretic" if you don't want their blessing, addict their own templars with lyrium to keep them loyal and brook no religious opposition within their own organization as Leliana proves.

Wynne is a slave because she doesn't act against them. She may beg the templars not to kill Anerin or to take her child away, but she accepted both actions and did not retaliate. She's a resentful slave, but a slave nonetheless. She accepts their mandate and the status quo.

As Andrew Ryan famously says, "A man chooses, a slave obeys".

the chantry, like most real world religious organisations, has its pros and cons. On the cons, they are extremely repressive in regard to Mages, they possess a private army that they have used before and will use again (Exalted Marches anyone?). its not only repressive against Mages, but  against all Thedans, seeking control in a spiritual context that no temporal government can hope to match, especially not in dark-ages/medieval societies.
The pros, they tend to the sick, the needy, the poverty stricken, they provide hope when there is none.  they protect the weak - the templars in lothering are a sterling example of this attitude. they are the last line of defence for the people and refugees in lothering, and they are willing to lay down their lives to protect the people as they flee their homes.

Wynne, i feel, has a very pro-chantry slant. However, i don't see her as an eyes closed indoctrinated adherant. Instead i see a woman who has seen a long, hard life, with all the perils, joys and sorrows that being a mage in Ferelden can provide. In that time there has been only one constant in her life... one which she at first out-right rejected. The Chantry, and the benefit it provides to Ferelden, to Thedas and to the Mages. Perhaps her positive experience as a child with the Templars who took her to the tower - being kind to her, and in the process saving her life - coloured her perceptions somewhat, perhaps not.  

i think using that particular quote is an over-simplification of the positions people are entangled in, and how and what they can do to change them.
In Wynne's case, both of these issues have had long standing precedent and laws to govern them. Mage's aren't permitted to raise their children ((i still think Cullen is her son)), she knew this when she conceived. She may have not wanted to give him up, but there was no alternative save death. For her and her child. yes she could have fled, but Wynne's expertise is healing, not destruction, Templars sent to slay her as an Apostate would have little trouble with her, especially hampered by having to protect an infant, or foetus if she'd fled whilst pregnant.
In regard to Anerin, there was only so much she could do here as well, without becoming an apostate herself. Consider also, that at this point in her life, Wynne is sublimely self-confident, over-confident even, in her abilities as a mage. If Anerin had chosen to fled, he didn't belong, nor deserve to be in the Tower. 

retalliation is a fun concept, but ultimately futile against an entire army of Templars all capable of neutralising your powers and slaying you mercilessly. How can Wynne act against the Chantry without being slain, and for nothing.

Choosing to Live and submit to the rules of those stronger, is not choosing to be a slave. its making a choice. Wynne made her choices. She regrets them certainly, but she is not a slave because she chose to obey the rules. by that logic we are all slaves of our governments.  

A slave has no choice, since choosing to fight and die or remain a slave is no choice at all. Death is easy, for a slave its admitting you cannot live any longer, that you are too weak to await the chance to fight back and win your freedom. Life is hard, slave or not. Freedom in death, is not freedom at all. 

Modifié par devilsgrin, 24 mai 2010 - 11:51 .

[Shadedclan]

I like Wynne. She comes off nice. Always have her for her heal spells and haste.