29 réponses à ce sujet

[Gecon]

Even years after I used it the last time I still remember vividly how awful the NWN1 toolset was to use.

- Inconsistent interface (sometimes you had to delete with delete key, other times by moving the item over a "trashcan" icon that wasnt even instantly recognizeable as a trashcan in the first place).
- Modal dialogues everywhere.
- The whole blueprint and copy issue. Having to update the copies every time you updated the blueprint. Ugh.
- The painful script language. Seriously, either make a compileable script language and then made it cleanly modularized, or just keep the original scripts. Compiling every include again and again individually for every script = extreme explosion of module size, extremely uncool.
- Not to mention the complete lack of arrays in the scripting language.
- The dialogue editor that just didnt allowed to easily refer to already created dialogue.

Yeah some parts of the toolset have been good, like designing a dungeon etc was really fast and easy. But overall the Morrowind toolset was much less painful to use than the NWN1 one.

[The Fred]

Name a better toolset.

- IIRC, the delete key always deletes even when there's a "trashcan".
- The blueprint/copy issue is a symptom of the ability to have individual instances of an object. Having to have a whole new blueprint for every instance would be much more ugh.
- The scripting language is by far one of the most advanced I've seen in a game editor, for goodness' sake. The compiling include thing is an annoyance, but it's how stuff like that works.
- OK so arrays? Really? Most games have no scripting language, let alone arrays. Yeah, it sucks, but there are ways to do most everything you would want an array for (if it comes to it just use a string array).

Anyway, what do you plan on doing about it? Just complaining for the hell of it, or what? This game is like a decade old and is well past getting updates, so it's not like any of these issues are going to be fixed.

[Xardex]

- I dont even know what you mean by a trashcan icon, but I sure as hell have had no need for it.
- Modal dialogues? What?
-You dont actually have to update instances everytime you change the blueprint. *
-NWScript is a fairly easy and powerful language and it differs only so much from the C -language it was derived from. Compiling includes is not something you have to do individually* and I cant see how it 'extremely' affects the module size more so then the scripts themselves.
-There may be no arrays in the language itself but thats what .2da's are for, and the language does have ways to read these files so I wouldn't say there is a 'complete lack' of arrays. As a sidenote I haven't never even needed arrays for anything I have done with NWscript, and I have done alot with it.
-Refer to already created dialogue? You can copy/paste dialogue trees from other dialogues and link to previous spots in the same dialogue. What you cant do is link from one dialogue to another, but that is because they are different dialogues.

* You can 'build' the module whenever you wish and choose what it does. I only use it just for mass compiling all my scripts and updating the blueprings, which seemed to be the problems you described. You can 'build' much more then that though..

I dont know how good morrowind toolset it compared to nwn toolset, but it should be pretty godly to be any better.

Modifié par Xardex, 31 mai 2011 - 05:25 .

[lordofworms]

Yeah, I dont understand either? You came to tell a bunch of YEARS old dedicated builders and players that...
this toolset sucks?

your daft man....I have yet to see a more versatile toolset...
morrowind?? lol...
yeah if you want a cookie cutter module that can just barely make changes beyond the original scope of the main game then sure its easy peasy.
nwn toolset I have seen modern games, warfare games, adult oriented games..etc...
which were built to have almost no recognition to the original game...
I would like to see a modern day steampunk mod be able to be made in morrowinds toolset.


anyways, thanks for the input but I dont think any of us here need to hear it...


now on the other hand, had you worded things differently I am sure many, many of us here could help you overcome your hesitation with this magnificent toolset.

[Fester Pot]

Trashcan - a builder cannot click an item in a creature's inventory, items, skin, claw, bite, etc., and hit the delete key to remove said item. One must drag it to the trashcan in the bottom left corner of the open inventory screen.

Not a big deal anyhow.

FP!

Modifié par Fester Pot, 31 mai 2011 - 05:57 .

[_six]

Interestingly, I see a few of your negatives as positives.

I mean, take the blueprints thing. To have a separate blueprint for every single unique object in the world would make me die a little inside. I like objects to be independent from their parent. Try not to think of it so much like you would objects of classes in a more programming oriented environment, as it's different in a way that is at first subtle and quite confusing, but actually makes life much easier. To put my perspective in context: in my module I have one commoner blueprint. Yet every single commoner in the game has a unique appearance.

Mind you, I'm not a huge fan of nwscript. It gets the job done, but not having lower level access to the game mechanics, rendering etc very occasionally pops up as a problem with things I'm trying to write. Arrays, on the other hand, are kind of a non-issue to me. At this high a level I don't really see much use for them. You can usually get around storing lists of objects by putting a boolean on said object to mark it as part of a list, if you're desperate, or do some simple string concatenation using separator characters for more traditional types of data.

My biggest annoyance is a really simple one though: not being able to set variables directly from a conversation. I have to write sooooo many really short meaningless scripts just to make dialogue a bit more dynamic.

Modifié par _six, 31 mai 2011 - 06:19 .

[The Fred]

Huh, I never even noticed that you couldn't delete, or I just forget. Well, it's a bit silly but it's hardly a deal-breaker.

The thing is, that toolsets are all about balance. The NWN1 one had a big issue with the fact that you couldn't browse resources whilst writing a dialogue or script. They fixed that in NWN2, but then people complained about how busy the new toolset was, how many windows it had and how you needed a three-foot plasma screen or dual monitors minimum to be able to see everything at once. You just can't win.

[FunkySwerve]

Gecon wrote...

Even years after I used it the last time I still remember vividly how awful the NWN1 toolset was to use.

- Inconsistent interface (sometimes you had to delete with delete key, other times by moving the item over a "trashcan" icon that wasnt even instantly recognizeable as a trashcan in the first place).

In my seven years building with it, I have never had to delete anything in the way you describe. Your mouse actually has a second button, to the right of the first. Learn to use it.

- Modal dialogues everywhere.

As others have noted, this complaint is so vauge as to be meaningless. Modal as compared to what? Dynamic? Dynamic convos are available as well, and while leaving out GetConversationNodeID WAS an oversight, that was rememdied by the community nigh on HALF A DECADE AGO.

- The whole blueprint and copy issue. Having to update the copies every time you updated the blueprint. Ugh.

You're complaining about templates versus base items? Seriously? I get that updating them takes a while, but tha's sort of unavoidable given the flexibility you get in exchange. More than anything, this remark in particular makes it clear how little you understand about development. You don't have to, and shouldn't be, building in such a way that this is a regular practice, just if you need to go back and revise something. Further, if you KNOW you're going to be revising it, you should be dynamically spawning it from the blueprint instead, meaning that all you have to edit is the blueprint.

- The painful script language. Seriously, either make a compileable script language and then made it cleanly modularized, or just keep the original scripts. Compiling every include again and again individually for every script = extreme explosion of module size, extremely uncool.

As compared to what, exactly? It sure made learning C a breeze after I learned nwscript, and C is one of the most-used languages by game programmers. The use of headers files/includes is a well-established coding practice for numerous reasons. If you want to learn them, go take a course on computing. Further, you don't have to compile every include 'again and again', or 'individually', and doing so would have no bearing at all on your mod size. When you recompile a script, the old compiled (machine readable) script is discarded, and replaced with the new. Again, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about here. If you're going to troll a forum, it helps to have a clue.

- Not to mention the complete lack of arrays in the scripting language.
- The dialogue editor that just didnt allowed to easily refer to already created dialogue.

Shockingly, these are actually valid points, albeit ones the community has also addressed HALF A DECADE AGO. Pseudolists done with variables, hashes with nwnx, struct editing with nwnx_structs, and more. Again...clueless.

So yeah, it wasn't perfect. What is? And more importantly, why the heck are you coming back years later to complain about something you barely have the foggiest concept of? 

Funky

Modifié par FunkySwerve, 31 mai 2011 - 06:51 .

[Challseus]

If you thought the NWN one was difficult to use, don't even think about trying NWN2, or gods, the Dragon Age one For me, the Aurora Toolset will always hold a special place in my heart. Ah, god times...

And sorry for not having answers for your issues, but I think everyone else pretty much handled that.

[The Fred]

FunkySwerve wrote...

Gecon wrote...
- Modal dialogues everywhere.

As others have noted, this complaint is so vauge as to be meaningless.

I think he means the way you can only access one main window (area, properties, scripting, conversation etc) at once (i.e. you go into different "modes"). This is annoying, admittedly.

As compared to what, exactly? It sure made learning C a breeze after I learned nwscript, and C is one of the most-used languages by game programmers.

I have to second this, too. I got >90% in a C course I took primarily because I already knew all the syntax off by heart and back-to-front. Well, except pointers. Damn pointers...

[ffbj]

Well for me I have to agree with the counter-posters. I find it simple to use really. Compared to NwN2 which is far more powerful. Usually, and this is just my take, powerful means difficult, or perhaps time consuming would be more accurate. I suppose there are some annoying things about the tooleset that you have to get used to in a procedural way, but once you learn them it is oh so easy to use. Jmo.

Since all points were answered by others far more completely than I could of, even some that agreed with a few of your points, I won't go into all the complaints. Though the one you made about updating the blueprints seems especially petty to me.  "Oh I forgot to give these guys stealth on spawn, and there's about 20 of them placed in the module".  No problem I just update the blueprint hit advanced and update, and here's what really puts the kabosh on that complaint, I update only the ones I want.  So maybe I have a few guys not in stealth, or that don't have a +(x) weapon, or whatever.  Trashing one of the most useful, and least to me, features of the toolset really seems to be trolling for bad things.  Maybe you should have titled the article "Things I don't like about the tool-set."
Not sure  this was the response you were expecting.

Modifié par ffbj, 01 juin 2011 - 12:11 .

[KooKoo88]

Bioware should have made the NWN toolset more troll friendly. I definitely agree.

[jmlzemaggo]

Bioware should have made the toolset available for other platforms, Mac for instance, much earlier.
That I agree.
Otherwise? I so enjoy what you PC guys made over those golden years there is no room to complain really.
Bammer! I usually love complaining a lot. 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 02 juin 2011 - 06:07 .

[CID-78]

It's the golden toolset, it's simply the best toolset there is to get into game mooding, sure ther is more powerfull tools out there, which by the way doesn't include TES construction set, which only have a few things it can do better then NWN. and that is making a seamless 3D sandbox module and if you prefer a database handling of items and objects. (it's really a matter of taste, the object itself isn't better after all).
You can make bridges something you can't do with either of the NWN toolsets or DA, but in other hand you can fall through the floor or wall aswell.

you can't even have looked at the scripting in TES if you complain about arrays. there isn't any here either, not to talk about how much else you are missing.

I have personally moved on, but it is still the best toolset for beginners that doesn't want to be limited in making clones of the original game.

[Baaleos]

I have used the nwn toolset for about 5 years now, and I have tried opening the NWN2 counterpart toolset up, and instantly got confused by its layout and interface.

On that note, I think the nwn1 toolset, is superior to even its sequel.

As far as Scripting Languages go, I've not seen one that is better, besides LUA from GarrysMod which has slightly more possibilities, but that being said, nwnscript may not be grown by the dev's, but it sure as hell is developed further by the community contributions in the form of nwnx.


The only thing I would choose to improve about the scripting system of nwn, would be adding of multi-threaded scripting, and possibly having the ability to compile larget scripts in the module, instead of running into that limitation of how many functions can be included per script.


I would like toolset to have more 3d control over placeables.
Rotation, Orientation on the z axies as well as x and y.

There is much that could be improved in toolset, but being strictly honest, they are all really tiny things.

[CID-78]

Well it's a fact the the more advanced a toolset get the more confusing it will seem to the beginner. because you will drown in options and long list and weird words that only make sense to people in the field. WIth todays demand on short development cycles there is little effort made in making them better after they get the latest functionality to work as intended.

NWN2 can do almost everything NWN can and a bit more. The major point you should ask yourself when you pick between them is these:

Do I intend to change the GUI of the game. if Yes NWN2 is your only option, if No also ask below question.
Do I want to use Height mesh area's or tileset when building exterior?,
Heightmesh = NWN2 and tileset == NWN.

All other things can be worked out on both systems with slightly diffrent approaches. I think area design is the most dividing part when it comes to picking toolset today. You need to ask yourself what do you need and what can you live without.

if 3D is the most important part with your module, sure go with TES construction set, Because neither NWN or DA give you true 3D. in the end every toolset have somethig they are Best at, either because they are the only toolset that can do it or because they do it better.

[The Fred]

There are quite a few minor differences between the two NWN toolsets as well. There are a bunch of scripting commands and so on which give you more functionality in NWN2. Then again, NWN1 has colour channel changing and things like that. Either way I'd say they are both amongst the best toolsets I've ever seen (not that that's many, admittedly).

[henesua]

Actually, I have to agree on a minor level with the troll because I mad a couple games inUnity3D (Now Unity) before I used the NWN toolset. For the time that NWN came out however there was nothing of equal usability, nor depth. So while in many respects NWN is frustrating to deal with, its benefits far outweigh the negatives. That I am making a game using NWN rather than doing so with Unity right now says something in its favor however. The NWN community is amazing. I got tired of making all of my own art assets, didn't want to buy them, and so NWN was the natural choice for a hobby project.

Try making an RPG from scratch in another modder's engine, that doesn't look like the original. Good luck with that. And could I make an RPG by myself in Unity? Maybe after a few years of dedicated weekends I'd have a demo worth playing. But in NWN it is possible to pull off a PW by myself in one year. I'm working on a single player mod, and estimate that I'll have it done in less than half a year of work. Its hard to beat that.

I will definitely be going back to Unity because its art asset pipeline is the best out there, and you can sell your projects, (I'd love to take some of you with me to work on a commercial project) BUT it took me three years working with it and modellign on my own to learn how to make games. By comparison I was able to rework an entire PW single handedly six months after I picked up NWN for the first time.

Something to think about. NWN may suck compared to what is available now, but even now it is an awesome tool for a hobbyist to use. And much of the content produced by this community is commercial grade stuff. The percentage of the Unity community that came up through the ranks like that is smaller. Many lost interest after a few years. In the NWN community on the other hand you have similar ambitions that resulted in persistant worlds.

Modifié par henesua, 05 juin 2011 - 09:55 .

[CID-78]

well if your skilled enough you don't need a toolset to make a game. you could write one from scratch. but who want to redesign the wheel if there is a game that fit your bill ready for new content. Personally I want todo my own art and a toolset that doesn't allow that would really suck. But i am not aware of a toolset worth a name that doesn't allow it.

what's really best about NWN2 toolset is the XML GUI, it open up a whole new world of possibilities that neither DA or NWN has.

DA rocks when it comes to Animations and Cutscenes, the scripting system is also superb.

NWN is like i already said the best beginner toolset and for those who don't want to spend ages on area design. With custom tilesets you can get very far in details and orginality here aswell.

[Skellimancer]

The toolset is great.

Haters gonna hate.

[NWN DM]

Baaleos wrote...

I have used the nwn toolset for about 5 years now, and I have tried opening the NWN2 counterpart toolset up, and instantly got confused by its layout and interface.

On that note, I think the nwn1 toolset, is superior to even its sequel.

Well that's a reasonable comparison to make... something you use for 5 years vs something you casually "tried opening".

I'm sure that if you put as much time into the NWN2 toolset as you have into the NWN toolset, it would be on an equal footing in your level of understanding.

Certainly, I can identify with feeling lost and confused upon opening the NWN2 toolset for the first time... but as with all things, there's a learning curve (the same kind of learning curve by the way that one had to go through with the NWN toolset).

Both are good at some things, and both have their own shortcomings.  But they are the only options if someone wants to build their own D&D adventures in the on-line realm.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

To quote NWN DM from another thread, "Much ado about nothing." ;^)

[Mudeye]

The original poster hasn't replied in 2 weeks. I suspect he's gone into the witness relocation program.

[Snottling-]

Heheheh, this is funny. Coming to the forums after years and telling us that it sucks? Well, that's your opinion, but you won't find many to agree with you, pal

I've been using the Aurora Toolset since the game was released in June 2002. And guess what? I LOVE IT! For me, it's the perfect way to create content to the joy of others. Scripting? I don't care, I have my son for that.
Once again: I LOVE THE AURORA TOOLSET!

[Skellimancer]

Mudeye wrote...

The original poster hasn't replied in 2 weeks. I suspect he's gone into the witness relocation program.

There is no escape from the retribution!