277 réponses à ce sujet

[Dex1701]

MisterEcted wrote...
I think Zoeller pointed out earlier that it wasn't the basis of the decision. They are just trying to dumb the game down to a retarded level so your little 6 year old sister can play it - they no longer care about what the 'hardcore' gamers want. They go where the money is at, not the passion.

Eh...why don't you go for a walk and blow off some steam or something.  Posting with such hyperbole, negative tone, and obvious angst just makes you come off as immature.  I have complaints/disappointments about the game as well, but you can have a rational, intelligent, mature discussion rather than making ad hominem assertions and relying on hyperbole and strawman to emphasize your points.  In fact, you'd be a lot more credible if you did so.

[MisterEcted]

Aether99 wrote...

Dont be too upset with MisterEcted Zoeller Hes simply giving his feelings outlet (admittedly in the wrong way). Its probably how a lot of players who liked your baldurs gate 2 and nwn games feel. They expected the combat log, and detailed tooltips (me the tooltips specifically, quite frustrating at times when the spells are so vague). Still a great game, just would be even better with those little things added someday (or in some other game you make)

Zoeller didn't do BG2, why do you think it's hailed as the greatest RPG of all time? I kid I kid, in reality this game isn't too bad - I don't hate it. I do think that not having any sort of decent logging of any sorts for a game like this is quite lame. most of us don't need to see thousands of strings being pumped to a logging window, we just want to see very basic things like "is this spell effective?".  But I guess that's just a massive resource hog and the only way to do it is with some clunky UI component, well according to Zoeller anyways.

Modifié par MisterEcted, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:39 .

[addiction21]

I ranted and theres no need for it

Modifié par addiction21, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:39 .

[MisterEcted]

addiction21 wrote...

Well the typical hardcore gamer is a douchebag that is never happy
with anything they are ever given and act like a spoiled brat who
throws a temper tantrum after being told no.
"I HATE YOU BIOWARE YOU DONT LISTEN TO ME OR LOVE ME ANYMORE WAGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!"

With
all the complaints about difficulty and people asking questions about
how to get better I do not think they dumbed it down. Comparing it to
the latest of Bioware games it is very much a challenge since in
ME/Kotor ya could just charge into any battle and wing it and finish
the fight without a scratch on you

No, the typical hardcore gamer is a douchebag that is never happy with anything because they are seeing the gaming industry turn into a bunch of cookie factories creating games with their cookie-cutters. Everything is so formulaic now.

But I still enjoy games, I just like ranting too

[Galooba]

MisterEcted wrote...


Zoeller didn't do BG2, why do you think it's hailed as the greatest RPG of all time? I kid I kid, in reality this game isn't too bad - I don't hate it. I do think that not having any sort of decent logging of any sorts for a game like this is quite lame. most of us don't need to see thousands of strings being pumped to a logging window, we just want to see very basic things like "is this spell effective?".  But I guess that's just a massive resource hog and the only way to do it is with some clunky UI component, well according to our elitist Zoeller anyways.

Did you even read one line of what he posted? Frankly, the bioware devs are giving a wonderfully fresh and open approach to discussing a lot of the decisions they have made. You can disagree with their decisions, but at least acknowledge that he gave a pretty comprehensive list of reasons that it was not included, with the least of those being performance.

I for one love the non-pc responses as well. Nothing worse than a dev post that justs says "Soon" or :"We're looking into it" (Of course someone is now going to quote a dev that said both of those things today....)

[nicodeemus327]

The game is most certainly a challenge on the PC (at least initially). I love it. Trying to figure out what works and what doesn't is a lot of fun. I just wish the tools to figure out such things were a bit better. Not having explicit numbers and vague descriptions added a pretty steep learning curve for me.

[bjdbwea]

There's no need to get defensive. I have indeed read the posts before, but the performance argument just holds no water. The game runs smoother than NWN 2 in my experience, but I don't think that's related to the combat log that NWN 2 provides regardless of also providing 3D graphics and sound. In any case, the simple possibilty to disable the combat log is enough to render the whole argument invalid.



No, this was a decision made for other reasons. Which, we can only speculate. It may indeed be the case that BioWare decided that a combat log and detailed statistics are an unnecessary "legacy feature". If so, I strongly disagree. I can't take a system seriously that's so vague. I might add that the system isn't the strongest point in the game anyway, with some spells being so overly powerful. From my own experience, I've gone from finding the game extremely difficult to quite easy, constantly using the same few tactics. I already begin to wonder how long this system can provide for interesting combat in mods, or DLC for that matter. I can only suggest BioWare rethink the whole system from scratch for a successor. Not all "old" ideas are worth replacing.

[Sibelius1]

Georg, if you are still on, could you please explain the inconsistency in your two statements below?

Georg Zoellar Wrote:

All that I do believe that the game can be played and enjoyed without the numbers - it's a single player game where
tactical approach has a lot more impact on the outcome of combat than
individual talents or whether or not I spent a bunch of points on
attribute A instead of B.  Testing has confirmed this. DPs optimization is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.

In your Missing Manual, this is your description of Nightmare Difficulty:

A word about Nightmare difficulty

Nightmare
difficulty is designed to provide a challenge to players not content
with the challenges that the hard difficulty setting is offering. This
mode is punishingly hard and requires the player to understand all aspects of the game in order to overcome their enemies. A well planned character and optimized playthrough path are required to succeed in this mode.

Although I do appreciate the fact that you are not misleading us and are being straight with your admission that there is no chance of implementing a combat  log, I do doubt the rationale you have given for the initial decision to cut the combat log.

• The performance issue seems questionable
• The accessibility issue would be solved by having a toggle on off option, being off by default, so as not to bamboozle potential newcomers to the genre. Or see below
• The UI clutter issue could be solved by adding another tab to the journal like you guys done for KOTOR, thus not intruding on the action screen
• Your claims that optimisation is not required seem to be confused as per above

Which leaves us with one final reason that was taken into account when making your decision:

Cost vs Benefits Analysis.

Now that one I can believe.

Modifié par Sibelius1, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:47 .

[F-C]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Great summary, I'm proud of you.

Everything that could be said about this topic has apparently been said. 

MisterEcted wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

I don't believe for a second that performance concerns are responsible for not implementing these features. Remember, BG 2 ten years ago did it with not problems. NWN as well, with 3D graphics and all. I do believe that it's not a trivial task to add this feature now that the game's as it is. But the whole system should've been designed from the beginning to provide a combat log, and more importanty the exact numbers and statistics of any talent and spell. If BioWare wanted to create a substitute for DnD, a system that could be used in future games, these considerations should have been a matter of course. As it is, the combat system succeeds at being fun, though for how long is remains to be seen. At any rate, in this form it's no competitor to DnD at all. And by the way, I don't care for any MMO.

I think Zoeller pointed out earlier that it wasn't the basis of the decision. They are just trying to dumb the game down to a retarded level so your little 6 year old sister can play it - they no longer care about what the 'hardcore' gamers want. They go where the money is at, not the passion.

this post had me laughing in my chair, you are great Georg.

a lot of you people need to lay off really, how many games developers have you seen ever bother to spend as much time explaining things as he has in this thread.

hes telling you how it is. just because you dont like something is no reason to sit there and start insulting him and making rude comments.

it certainly wont help your cause and it could deter future communication.

learn some manners.


i would much rather be faced with the reality of things so i can understand than get some representative they pay 8$ an hour to that gives replies like "we will submit that to feedback".

[MisterEcted]

Galooba wrote...
Did you even read one line of what he posted? Frankly, the bioware devs are giving a wonderfully fresh and open approach to discussing a lot of the decisions they have made. You can disagree with their decisions, but at least acknowledge that he gave a pretty comprehensive list of reasons that it was not included, with the least of those being performance.

I for one love the non-pc responses as well. Nothing worse than a dev post that justs says "Soon" or :"We're looking into it" (Of course someone is now going to quote a dev that said both of those things today....)

Yeah, I have read them. In some posts he complains about ad-hominem attacks as if this were a debate forum and in the next post he's a sarcastic arse and does the "lets see you do better" pissing and moaning crap. Once in awhile he has a good point. I do respect him for reaching out to these forums though, but I'm not going to worship him just because he's the lead designer.

[Sakiradesu]

I wonder how many people would pay for a Combat Log DLC?

[SheffSteel]

Sakiradesu wrote...

I wonder how many people would pay for a Combat Log DLC?

None, because it would provide zero hours of gameplay

[addiction21]

Sakiradesu wrote...

I wonder how many people would pay for a Combat Log DLC?

That ****storm would be amazing to watch.

[Magic Zarim]

I wouldn't mind paying a few dollars for it. But I can almost guarantee it would cause a huge uproar "WTF BioWare charging us for something that shoulda been in the game all along!"

[manneger]

I cant be bothered to read through this whole thread, so i'll just state my view of this topic.



I never played an MMORPG.



I did play Baldurs gate and made frequent use of the combat log



I would like to have an optional combat log in DAO as well, mainly to make it easier to see what happens and who does what damage. I am not a min-maxer in any way, i pick my main and npc characters because of rp reasons and choose their skills/talents from the same reason. But i feel very frustrated from not even being able to tell what's happening in a fight. Maybe that's easier to do on the PC, but i play on 360 and can pretty much just guess what's going on in a fight between people dying.

[Greye]

F-C wrote...
this post had me laughing in my chair, you are great Georg.

I agree. :innocent:  Thanks very much for addressing concerns, Georg.  It's true that despite being simplified compared to its spiritual antecedents, DA:O is a masterpiece and an epic game.  You guys have always been the best and you still are.  Looking forward already to exploring your next projects.  Thanks for keeping the RP in RPG.

[Challseus]

bjdbwea wrote...

There's no need to get defensive. I have indeed read the posts before, but the performance argument just holds no water. The game runs smoother than NWN 2 in my experience, but I don't think that's related to the combat log that NWN 2 provides regardless of also providing 3D graphics and sound. In any case, the simple possibilty to disable the combat log is enough to render the whole argument invalid.

No, this was a decision made for other reasons. Which, we can only speculate. It may indeed be the case that BioWare decided that a combat log and detailed statistics are an unnecessary "legacy feature". If so, I strongly disagree. I can't take a system seriously that's so vague. I might add that the system isn't the strongest point in the game anyway, with some spells being so overly powerful. From my own experience, I've gone from finding the game extremely difficult to quite easy, constantly using the same few tactics. I already begin to wonder how long this system can provide for interesting combat in mods, or DLC for that matter. I can only suggest BioWare rethink the whole system from scratch for a successor. Not all "old" ideas are worth replacing.

Are you serious? He tells you the reason why it is not in the game, and you just literally don't believe him, without knowing the architecture of their engine? Why is it people always know what's best for a product, moreso than the people who made said product? Must be a bunch of monkeys at Bioware, right?

And then, since he must be lying, now we must speculate what the "truth" is? No wonder most devs don't post on their forums... Thankfully, he does... I would rather hear the truth, than the normal person coming out, "Maintaining a level of BS", just so people won't whip out the online petitions and such. Because, if there are a bunch of threads on something on a forum (the place where people go to complain), then it must be a catastrophe that must be handled right away!

-----------------------------------------------------------

With regards to getting the tooltip info for all abilities (talents, spells, skills, etc.), not sure if anyone mentioned it, but as the implementations are all under the _Ability_Scripts folder in the toolset, someone would just have to go through them all. Once they wrote the new descriptions, they would just have to override the core talk table with the new values, or however people are modifying existing content with the Original Campaign.

Seems like a ton of work, but if broken up between like 4 people (1 person does all spells, 1 person does all talents, etc.), and a standard template of how to display the info was agreed upon, it would be easier.

I guess I can understand why people want to see the tooltips.  But, after looking at the implementation of Winter's Grasp, I have no idea how all that info would be put into a single tooltip!

[bjdbwea]

Challseus wrote...

Are you serious? He tells you the reason why it is not in the game, and you just literally don't believe him, without knowing the architecture of their engine?

I merely pointed out that the "performance" argument isn't valid. That it's technically absolutely possible to provide a combat log in today's games is a proven fact. If the DA engine weren't capable of that, it would be bad programming. But as I said, I don't believe that for a second. That's actually more a compliment than anything else.

Why is it people always know what's best for a product, moreso than the people who made said product? Must be a bunch of monkeys at Bioware, right?

Never said anything remotely like that. But as a player, I certainly know better what I want in my games than anyone else. Just as anyone else knows what they want. For the record, I care much less for the combat log than I do for concrete descriptions / tool tips. I'm still not convinced about the real reasons why those features were cut, though. I also just can't believe that the RPG professionals who made BG and NWN would suddenly come to the conclusion that those features were unnecessary. I think it has more to do with the feature not being feasible on consoles, maybe even that the whole game mechanics were changed significantly for platform reasons during the course of development.

[Dex1701]

bjdbwea wrote...
I merely pointed out that the "performance" argument isn't valid. That it's technically absolutely possible to provide a combat log in today's games is a proven fact. If the DA engine weren't capable of that, it would be bad programming. But as I said, I don't believe that for a second. That's actually more a compliment than anything else.

While I agree that a combat log is well within the processing power means of modern hardware, without knowing how their software is put together nobody can say for sure that it wouldn't have been technically impractical in some way.  This is coming from a professional software developer of 13 years.

Let's say I have a pickup truck with a 4-cylinder engine and monster truck tires.  I also have a...let's say...Ferrari F-4.  The fact that the Ferrari has a larger engine doesn't automatically mean that it's technically practical to fit it with the monster tires from my truck.  It simply wasn't designed with that in mind, and adapting the car to accomodate the larger tires would be a lot of work, and even then the car isn't going to perform well afterwards.

Now, I know nothing about the difficulty in accomplishing a combat log with Bioware's software architecture, but it is not a foregone conclusion that it would be a simple change or wouldn't affect performance.  It seems odd that it would affect performance that much, but it's not impossible.

Modifié par Dex1701, 21 novembre 2009 - 12:27 .

[MrGOH]

The results are in: Georg wins this thread, like he wins at so many other things in life.



Lucky bastard.

[djfayt]

igniteip wrote...

Bioware, Please do not provide log. As George Lucas totally destroy the mystique of the Force when it was explained away as caused by melatonin or what the hell it is that is in your blood. Besides, the log would only fodder for endless moronic complaints.

ROFL! The levels of melatonin in your blood does give a new perspective on the Dark side of the Force eh? 

[bjdbwea]

Dex1701 wrote...

Now, I know nothing about the difficulty in accomplishing a combat log with Bioware's software architecture, but it is not a foregone conclusion that it would be a simple change or wouldn't affect performance.  It seems odd that it would affect performance that much, but it's not impossible.

Aren't many of the DA developers the same ones that developed NWN? It's even quite possible to spot some resemblances of the NWN engine in DA. Any logic says that what they already could do back then, they could do today.

But you're certainly right that, should the decision to omit these features have been made early, it would be rather time consuming to put it in now. And with them being busy with (hopefully) patching the game and developing their precious DLCs, it won't happen. The matter of the fact is that it should be obvious to the best RPG developers (which BioWare still are) that a proper combat system needs to have proper documentation. And I don't buy that argument "it's more about strategy" either. It very obviously isn't, the numbers still do matter a lot in everything you do. In fact, with more knowledge the planning of your strategies would only improve.

[Sibelius1]

MrGOH wrote...

The results are in: Georg wins this thread, like he wins at so many other things in life.

Lucky bastard.

I have yet to see Georg address any of the points raised in my post above, so until such time, I win the thread!

[xIc3x]

Sibelius1 wrote...

I have yet to see Georg address any of the points raised in my post above, so until such time, I win the thread!

He isn't replying to you because that would be a waste of time, you don't win anything .


Hmm let me see, you said:

The performance issue seems questionable

(he is a designer wtf are you arguing for)



The accessibility issue would be solved by having a toggle on off option, being off by default, so as not to bamboozle potential newcomers to the genre. Or see below

(what he really meant, was no one gives a **** except a few people on the forums)



The UI clutter issue could be solved by adding another tab to the journal like you guys done for KOTOR, thus not intruding on the action screen

(see above "not giving a ****")


Your claims that optimisation is not required seem to be confused as per above

(Are you serious? You can't optimise without a comat log? Pick a healer, give morrigan the spell lines she starts with, pick a tank, get a rogue for traps and locks. There, you just optimized for nightmare.)

I second the idea that Gerog wins .

Modifié par xIc3x, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:23 .

[zigge2]

can anybody send me a new cd-key i have lost mine :( i will be very thankful: )