277 réponses à ce sujet

[kelsjet]

Shannara13 wrote...

kelsjet wrote...

[*]In simple terms, many of the people asking for combat logs, detailed tooltips, etc are MMO veterans. They have spent the better part of the past 5 years playing with combat logs, number crunching programs etc to gain that extra 0.002% performance. 
[*]

I don't need to be an MMO vet to know that I would like to know WTF the ability that I am working towards does. Knowing that Arcane Mastery only give +5 Spell power would have kept me from wasting points in the arcane tree.

Nope, because there is more than enough points going around plus the
fact that the bonus from Arcane Mastery is unique (stacks with
everything else).

[MrFish]

Seifz wrote...

Every one of those uses D&D/d20 and every one of them didn't need a combat log.  Detailed descriptions of stats, equipment, spells, feats, and skills were all available online.  Almost all of it was available from the free SRD (d20srd.org)!  I don't know if a similar reference exists for the v2 games, but that system's pretty terrible for a CRPG anyway.


Developing a combat log would waste precious zots that are better used for bug fixing, DLC, and expansions.  We don't need a combat log.

You do realise you have actually said..err..nothing, right?  Why would a player want to go to Random Joe's DnD Emporium.com to find out whether it's worth maximising his fireball or not, or wonder why his colour spray doesn't work on goblin elites?  Why would I go to the pub to find out whether Fosters is beer or cat pee?  Argment Moot.

Development time:  You'll notice the engine is based on all those games previously listed, and they already have a combat log.  I'll bet my mum's dog that the log is still where it was last time when Aurora's maths engine was converted and just has no UI.  Guess how much time UI work takes?  Oh my god they have to add a box to display the debug information!  A couple of hours coding, a couple in QA and then debugging abilities became alot easier because we can see the numbers and work out what isn't doing what it should.

[JamesX]

DA:O doesn't have reflexive saves. It only has Physical Saves and Mental Saves. It may have Dexterity Checks or Cunning Checks but not sure how that works for traps. Because I have walked across trip wires without triggering them sometimes, and at other times it triggers. Not sure if its bug or if it is intentional.

[Shannara13]

kelsjet wrote...

Shannara13 wrote...

kelsjet wrote...
In simple terms, many of the people asking for combat logs, detailed tooltips, etc are MMO veterans. They have spent the better part of the past 5 years playing with combat logs, number crunching programs etc to gain that extra 0.002% performance. 

I don't need to be an MMO vet to know that I would like to know WTF the ability that I am working towards does. Knowing that Arcane Mastery only give +5 Spell power would have kept me from wasting points in the arcane tree.

Nope, because there is more than enough points going around plus the
fact that the bonus from Arcane Mastery is unique (stacks with
everything else).

Except there isn't more than enough points to go around. There are alot of spells I would rather have spent points on than those 3.

[Dex1701]

Dwazgull wrote...

DA:O is based on DnD 3.5 iirc.

I don't think so.  It's a custom system developed by Bioware.  They don't have a contract with WotC anymore AFAIK.

[kelsjet]

JamesX wrote...
Let say for example.. Spell adds +5 attack for 50 mana, and no other spell does that.
Let say you have a spell that makes the oppoent -5 defense for 25 mana. 
If you had the number then you would obviously pick the defense -5 for cheaper mana, because it has the same effect.

No need for examples, the spells are already here. When you will see DA:Os spells and associative spell costs you can see that all spells of this example type actually do balance out to have a similar cost. A more accurate example is spell that does +5 attk for 50 mana vs a spell that does -5 defense for 50 mana. If this is not the case, then it is a balancing problem,

JamesX wrote...
This is a more simple example.  It gets more complicated once you consider: Is 50 mana for 2 fireballs for 25 dmg each and adding knock down better than 50 mana for +2 to damage on all my meleeing party members.

You are comparing spell effects here, not spell costs. Do you want a knockdown AoE, or an party damage buff. The amounts of dmg/buff are not important in this example.

Modifié par kelsjet, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:13 .

[Seifz]

My point was that D&D was designed for pen and paper play and then later adapted for CRPGs. Thus, the detailed information that you all seek was readily available from a number of sources and the concept of optimizing characters builds was already part of the community. Further, D&D had so many options and pitfalls that you actually had to optimize your character somewhat just to succeed in any of those CRPGs! It was part of the system.



DA:O's system (which is in absolutely no way based on any version of D&D) wasn't created that way. This system was designed specifically for CRPGs and it was designed with the vague ability descriptions and missing combat log in mind. There aren't as many options and traps in this system. You can choose abilities and talents that make sense for your character from a role-playing perspective rather than ones that you need to be successful. Thus, there's no need for a combat log or detailed spell descriptions.



Anyway, you're seriously underestimating the amount of work involved. Writing the actual GUI is the easy part. Then, where do you put it? Remember, you have to keep the UI looking nice and clean. You also need to put it in a place that works for the PC and the consoles, or perhaps find two locations for it. Then you have to test it, make sure it works. Over to QA for extensive testing and debugging. Then it has to be approved and bundled into a patch, which is then sent out to Microsoft and Sony for approval. Then, if we're lucky, those two companies both approve of the content patch and BioWare can finally add a combat log to the game.



Or, they could just not waste all of that time and instead focus on more important things like bug fixing and DLC.

[kelsjet]

Seifz wrote...

The system in DA:O was designed for DA:O and it was designed so that you didn't need a combat log.

Developing a combat log would waste precious zots that are better used for bug fixing, DLC, and expansions.  We don't need a combat log.

This is exactly the point, gj.

[Dex1701]

Really, folks, how is DA:O any different than any other single-player RPG that has a combat log? Things are happening in combat and you can't keep track of everything that's happening every second in larger battles. I'm not clear on what the problem with some folks wanting to be able to look back at what happened in the battle is. What's the downside?

Seifz wrote...
Anyway, you're seriously underestimating the
amount of work involved. Writing the actual GUI is the easy part. Then,
where do you put it? Remember, you have to keep the UI looking nice and
clean. You also need to put it in a place that works for the PC and the
consoles, or perhaps find two locations for it. Then you have to test
it, make sure it works. Over to QA for extensive testing and debugging.
Then it has to be approved and bundled into a patch, which is then sent
out to Microsoft and Sony for approval. Then, if we're lucky, those two
companies both approve of the content patch and BioWare can finally add
a combat log to the game.

Eh, yes, making any change to something as complex as a game is a significant amount of work.  However, a combat log should be fairly easy to do compared to other types of engine changes.  The info is already there...it's just a matter of adding a collapsible box to the GUI to display it.  Like I said, though, any engine change isn't trivial.

Modifié par Dex1701, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:18 .

[Shannara13]

kelsjet wrote...

You are comparing spell effects here, not spell costs. Do you want a knockdown AoE, or an party damage buff. The amounts of dmg/buff are not important in this example.

/facepalm

[-XM-]

Seifz wrote...

-XM- wrote...

You could pick practically any talents at all and beat this game.  The idea is that you chose what makes sense for your character, not what's the "best."

How can I pick what makes sense, when either the abilities don't do what they describe or they don't give much of a description at all? I can't relate to a character who is not built properly, it's too unlike me. It would annoy me every time I think about it.

That the official campaign and talents are badly designed and any team with a pair of mages with randomly picked skills can just faceroll their keyboard through nightmare does not mean this is the same for difficulty mods, upcoming player-made modules or custom talents/specialisations.

How very convenient of you to leave out the second part of my post too...

[Broloc]

lol I wonder if the people against Combat logs/detailed numbers/etc. even played RPGs before DA:O? Hell have they even played anything not called an MMO?



there are too many children thinking that they know it all, just like the OP, assuming stuff just because it crossed his mind. I bet that he's the "mmo veteran" who has played em for over the last 5 years, not knowing at all that Bioware already had combat logs and lots of numbers way before WoW hit the scene and made mmos popular games.

[kelsjet]

Dex1701 wrote...
 What's the downside?

The downside, as a few have eluded to in this thread, is that there is no 'upside'. It is development for developments sake with little to no impact on the actual game. If the "why can't we have a combat log coz I just wanna see what happened when I died" argument was true for all games, then why don't we have combat logs in FPS games? RTS games? Mass Effect? KOTOR? DIablo?

Developing a combat log (though to be fair, this thread was about more than just combat logs) is not a trivial thing. There needs to be a true gameplay benefit for having one.

[JamesX]

Shannara13 wrote...

kelsjet wrote...

You are comparing spell effects here, not spell costs. Do you want a knockdown AoE, or an party damage buff. The amounts of dmg/buff are not important in this example.

/facepalm

[soteria]

[quote]kelsjet wrote...

[quote]soteria wrote...

I disagree with your analysis. Previous Bioware games were not MMOs and had more detailed information, including combat logs. [/quote]

Mass effect did not. Neither did any of the KOTORs.
[/quote]

Never played ME.  Didn't KOTOR have a combat log?  Can someone confirm that?  Regardless, with the smaller group, simpler tactics, more information available in other ways, and general face-roll nature of both games all the way through, it wasn't something I thought much about.  Besides, even if KOTOR didn't have a combat log, previous Bioware games still did have one, and many of us used it.

[quote]
[quote]soteria wrote...
This is a tactical game, with a lot going on in some fights. If I have someone die suddenly that I wasn't watching, it can be difficult to find out why in DA:O since there is no log. I can't go back and say, "Ok, the Emissary cast death hex and then a hurlock alpha flurried him."[/quote]

I find this a very unlikely scenario, which may only occur due to a massive error on your part. You have 4 people you need to watch, you can pause the game, no mob exists that will just one shot a party member unless there is some grave error on your part (i.e the big hulking ogre is running from across the room to your mage and you don't do anything about it). I am not arguing a combat log wouldn't help if this scenario did happen, I am just arguing that the scenario itself is a bit problematic, and that preventing this scenario from occuring needs better combat management, and not neccesarily a combat log.
[/quote]

You're welcome to regard the probability in any manner you choose, but since it happened, I'm not inclined to care what you think about said probability.  Actually, I admit I'm not sure "it" happened, since I have no clue what happened--no combat log, see.  I can only speculate on what happened, sometimes.  Well, OBVIOUSLY they died because their HP ran out, but whether it was the archers firing from far off, the monsters beating on them from close up, or the mage casting a spell from somewhere else did it, I can't say.

Politeness aside, your suggestion that I just manage combat better is, frankly, idiotic, insulting, and not even pertinent to the discussion.  Pausing the game doesn't allow me to go back and see what happened 3 seconds ago when I was messing with a different character.  Even the floating numbers disapear after a few seconds.

[quote]
[quote]soteria wrote...
Furthermore, the lack of detailed tooltips doesn't even accomplish the apparent purpose. If I want to know how much Heroic Offense will grant me, I have to check my attack, cast the spell, and check my attack again. The numbers aren't hidden. It's pretty easy to figure out that the spell is giving me 10 or 15 attack or whatever it is, and the game knows that number before I cast the spell, so it wouldn't be impossible to have a tooltip that reflects that number instead of making me go the extra step of checking around.[/quote]

Simple point. How would your behavoir change if you did have the Heroic Offense numbers? My claim, it wouldn't change one bit. You would still cast Heroic Offense exactly where you would have cast it if you didn't know its exact stat. This is the point I was making earlier, that being, that added stats are superflous.

[/quote]
[/quote]

Actually, I probably wouldn't have taken the spell at all if I knew how little it did for the cost/duration.  So no, the added stats wouldn't be superflous.  They would have saved me a talent--your claim that my behavior wouldn't change is completely invalid.  Why would you even think that?  If the actual number didn't matter, why would I bother going through the trouble of researching how much it helped?


Your whole argument in your OP was that "we don't need a combat log because the game isn't multiplayer."  The point is, the combat log predates MMOs, and there are loads of reasons to use one aside from competition or min/maxing.  Maybe YOU can keep watch on all four of your members at all times and track all the numbers floating on the screen, but I can't keep track of it all.

[Cozarkian]

DA:O has a toolset that allows players to develop their own dungeons. In order to properly balance these dungeons, we need to know the underlying combat mechanics.

[MrFish]

It's not neccesarily needed immediately for the consoles, as they're as you say, not readily patched nor modded. The biggest impact in having one is the modding community who are currently striving to balance the broken, overpowered or just terrible abilties that the game comes with. Without seeing the mechanics behind attack speed, crit chance and so on, its all plain guesswork or bad averages.



Whilst yes I may have overestimated the amount of work for the sake of effect, it is non the less, not as much as many who scream "but it doesn't exist at all" but rather pointing out that it does, infact exist, in a way that you may not be able to see how your oven works, but it does infact work. It doesn't take a ton of effort to prove this because it's already working.



The lack of the log was probably for portability of the UI, and various dumbing down-ness of games as it were. I'd be happy without IF I got detailed information about abilities on its description, instead of a moron level wording which is about as clear. In some cases I get less information about an ability than news in the Sun.

[kelsjet]

-XM- wrote...

That the official campaign and talents are badly designed and any team with a pair of mages with randomly picked skills can just faceroll their keyboard through nightmare does not mean this is the same for difficulty mods, upcoming player-made modules or custom talents/specialisations.

Red Herring argument.

This is a problem with overall game balance. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there should be a combat log present in DA:O. No one is saying the game is perfect on all fronts in every aspect.

-XM- wrote...
How very convenient of you to leave out the second part of my post too...

You didn't make a point in your second part. I am focusing my responses to people who are taking this discussion forward and leaving out the trolls and nonsense. I am also replying to more than one person in this thread

[MrFish]

Cozarkian wrote...

DA:O has a toolset that allows players to develop their own dungeons. In order to properly balance these dungeons, we need to know the underlying combat mechanics.

Have a freakin Gold Star!

(no really, have one)

[Dex1701]

kelsjet wrote...

Dex1701 wrote...
 What's the downside?

The downside, as a few have eluded to in this thread, is that there is no 'upside'. It is development for developments sake with little to no impact on the actual game.

The upside is that people that want to know what's happening can see what's happening.  I'm an RPG system geek, and I'm simply interested.  Not good enough for you?  If you're not curious then that's you.  This is bordering on a "your opinion is wrong" argument.  <_<

If the "why can't we have a combat log coz I just wanna see what happened when I died" argument was true for all games, then why don't we have combat logs in FPS games? RTS games? Mass Effect? KOTOR? DIablo?

FPS games typically don't involve character building based on many different and detailed stats, spells with specific counters, damage types that can be resisted using certiain equipment or abilities, etc..  RTS games would have too much information on top of most stats for units being static to begin with.  Mass Effect....see FPS.  KotOR...had a combat log.  Diablo...see Mass Effect.

Developing a combat log (though to be fair, this thread was about more than just combat logs) is not a trivial thing. There needs to be a true gameplay benefit for having one.

Any engine change involves testing, QA, and distribution, but of engine changes it would be among the most trivial, if not the most, unless the architecture of the game engine is really poorly conceived.  I've not seen their source code (obviously), but it wouldn't be my first rodeo.  I've been a professional software developer for nearly 13 years.

For the record, I'm not arguing for or against the addition of the log.  I'm simply playing devil's advocate.  I'd like to see a log, but I don't need it.

Modifié par Dex1701, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:35 .

[Archangel064]

soteria wrote...

I disagree with your analysis. Previous Bioware games were not MMOs and had more detailed information, including combat logs. In fact, a lot of them had more transparent systems than most MMOs. It took players a lot of testing to figure out certain numbers and formulae in WoW, for example. Again, though, a number of the people asking for a combat log aren't MMO veterans; they are asking for something they have come to expect from playing previous Bioware games, not MMOs.

This is a tactical game, with a lot going on in some fights. If I have someone die suddenly that I wasn't watching, it can be difficult to find out why in DA:O since there is no log. I can't go back and say, "Ok, the Emissary cast death hex and then a hurlock alpha flurried him."

Furthermore, the lack of detailed tooltips doesn't even accomplish the apparent purpose. If I want to know how much Heroic Offense will grant me, I have to check my attack, cast the spell, and check my attack again. The numbers aren't hidden. It's pretty easy to figure out that the spell is giving me 10 or 15 attack or whatever it is, and the game knows that number before I cast the spell, so it wouldn't be impossible to have a tooltip that reflects that number instead of making me go the extra step of checking around.

THIS!

That wall of text in the first post is totally meaningless to me (and no doubt many, many others). Hell I don't even own a MMO game much less play one. COULD NOT care less about any MMO.

I have however spent countless single player hours in NWN's OC's and 3rd party mods, along with many hours in NWN2 single player as well, and a combat log is just as necesary and useful as a journal, character sheet, or most every other common tool. Not having that tool available cheapens the experience and overall completeness of the game as a whole.

[ScorpionBB]

I for one would like a combat log. More information is never a bad thing for those who want it, and I'm sure any combat log added would have an option to disable it. Best of both worlds maybe?

[kelsjet]

soteria wrote...

Never played ME.  Didn't KOTOR have a combat log?  Can someone confirm that?  Regardless, with the smaller group, simpler tactics, more information available in other ways, and general face-roll nature of both games all the way through, it wasn't something I thought much about.  Besides, even if KOTOR didn't have a combat log, previous Bioware games still did have one, and many of us used it.

You have essentially stated exactly what I showed to be false in my original post. "Game X had a combat log so game Y must have on" is not a valid reason for having one. KOTOR and ME didnt have combat logs, everything went along just fine.

soteria wrote...

You're welcome to regard the probability in any manner you choose, but since it happened, I'm not inclined to care what you think about said probability.  Actually, I admit I'm not sure "it" happened, since I have no clue what happened--no combat log, see.  I can only speculate on what happened, sometimes.  Well, OBVIOUSLY they died because their HP ran out, but whether it was the archers firing from far off, the monsters beating on them from close up, or the mage casting a spell from somewhere else did it, I can't say.

Politeness aside, your suggestion that I just manage combat better is, frankly, idiotic, insulting, and not even pertinent to the discussion.  Pausing the game doesn't allow me to go back and see what happened 3 seconds ago when I was messing with a different character.  Even the floating numbers disapear after a few seconds.

My point is that having a combat log would not have prevented that situation, and that the error is elsewhere (in combat management). I apologise if that comes across as being insulting. But it is still the case.

Actually, I probably wouldn't have taken the spell at all if I knew how little it did for the cost/duration.  So no, the added stats wouldn't be superflous.  They would have saved me a talent--your claim that my behavior wouldn't change is completely invalid.  Why would you even think that?  If the actual number didn't matter, why would I bother going through the trouble of researching how much it helped?

This is a matter of opinion. I, for example, think it is a very valid point investment, since it is still a unique ability. Saying "i dont feel it is good enough" is just your opinion, one that is born out of a somewhat questionable understanding of the existing game (as your scenario above somewhat eludes to). If there is a problem with the spell, that is, again, a balance issue, not a "this would work if I had a combat log" issue.

Your whole argument in your OP was that "we don't need a combat log because the game isn't multiplayer."

Actually, 'my whole point' was far more nuanced then that. In a nutshell, as I have stated many times, my point is:

"Not all games need combat logs, DA:O is one of those games".

[kelsjet]

Archangel064 wrote...

Not having that tool available cheapens the experience and overall completeness of the game as a whole.

I would infer from this statement then that you believe Mass Effect and the KOTOR series are "cheap" and "incomplete" games?

[soteria]

kelsjet wrote...

Dex1701 wrote...
 What's the downside?

The downside, as a few have eluded to in this thread, is that there is no 'upside'. It is development for developments sake with little to no impact on the actual game. If the "why can't we have a combat log coz I just wanna see what happened when I died" argument was true for all games, then why don't we have combat logs in FPS games? RTS games? Mass Effect? KOTOR? DIablo?

Developing a combat log (though to be fair, this thread was about more than just combat logs) is not a trivial thing. There needs to be a true gameplay benefit for having one.

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.  FPS games have all the combat log they need--"You were killed by so-and-so's grenade."  In RTS games, you don't have a character, so you don't have to find out how you died.  Action games like Diablo don't really need a combat log since success in combat is based on different factors.

Besides, didn't you say earlier that whether or not a game needs a combat log should be determined on an individual basis, not a genre?  So isn't this line a bit hypocritical?

I'm skeptical about the difficulty involved--I doubt they could have tested the game thoroughly without some sort of combat logging.  The information has to be there; it's a matter of displaying it.  I find it much more likely they don't display a combat log as part of their current philosophy of holding back information about game mechanics.