277 réponses à ce sujet

[Sakiradesu]

kelsjet wrote...

This is a problem with overall game balance. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there should be a combat log present in DA:O. No one is saying the game is perfect on all fronts in every aspect.

The thing is that there are people who can make it perfect. They just need the tools to do so.

Elder Scrolls: Oblivion allowed mods, and people were able to rebalance things as necessary to make it harder and more challenging.

Bioware is allowing people the same opportunity with its toolset release (I think that's how it works). And so far as I know, whenever I see numbers pop up in a game, I expect there to be a convoluted system behind all of the numbers with all the data of the fight flying by.

I don't know for sure, but wouldn't programming the numbers to fly up like that require more work than a log that simply records all the information of the fight? And it doesn't have to be on the screen. It can be like the dialog box.

It can even be right next to it!

Modifié par Sakiradesu, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:36 .

[Georg Zoeller]

The games based on the D&D license need a combat log to underscore the implementation of the underlying license mechanics. Dragon Age needs no such thing as it uses our own, proprietary ruleset and we deemed the combat log unnecessary and inappropriate for the amount of floating point data that was would have to be displayed to reflect all elements of the ruleset.



In short: The combat log was a holdover from pen and paper and we decided it was not necessary for the game experience we wanted. EoS.

[-XM-]

kelsjet wrote...

-XM- wrote...

That the official campaign and talents are badly designed and any team with a pair of mages with randomly picked skills can just faceroll their keyboard through nightmare does not mean this is the same for difficulty mods, upcoming player-made modules or custom talents/specialisations.

Red Herring argument.

This is a problem with overall game balance. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there should be a combat log present in DA:O. No one is saying the game is perfect on all fronts in every aspect.

-XM- wrote...
How very convenient of you to leave out the second part of my post too...

You didn't make a point in your second part. I am focusing my responses to people who are taking this discussion forward and leaving out the trolls and nonsense. I am also replying to more than one person in this thread

Unless I can't read anymore, you did not reply to my post, and I was replying to someone else who did...

Red Herring is what the poster actually posted by saying you could pick anything and beat the game, which is irrelevant as this is too specific to the vanilla balance, which has already been modded and does not apply to custom content which hopefully will be significantly more than official content (like with NwN). Therefore, making a judgement on whether or not a manual, accurate skill descriptions and/or a combat log is a good addition to the game, based solely on the vanilla game is stupid.

The point I made in my second part is we have neither a manual, combat log nor accurate skill descriptions. And I did so by giving specific examples of problems with the existing skill descriptions and noting the fact that the Lead Systems Designer for Dragon Age had to go and create a website with the very telling name of "The Missing Manual". If that's not a valid point for needing either good skill descriptions (which are in this sorry state because they locked localisation of strings before settling on final implementation), an actual manual (since the Missing Manual is someone doing it on their own time and is therefore incomplete) or a combat log, then I am not sure what does constitute a valid point for this...

[Statue]

Merge ftw, I'm running low on thread subscriptions :/

http://social.biowar.../9/index/232401
http://social.biowar.../9/index/205210

The MMO argument against combat logs and specific stats is flawed since those features are not exclusive to MMOs, and they have proven useful in numerous single player RPGs both before and since the emergence of MMOs. It's a red herring to consider all in favour of combat logs and specific descriptors as DUI of MMOs.

The absence of specific stats and the absence of a combat log hinders selection of equipment, spells/skills, and player efficacy in combat, without adding much value to compensate for it. It discourages and disables players from making effective choices that are generally a key part of RPGs, or at least forces the player to use clumsy workarounds to disambiguate what could so easily have been transparent in the first place.

Yes, there's no need to be optimal for the purposes of strengthening your guild raids - but there are lots of other compelling reasons for combat logs and specific descriptors than being optimal in an MMO. DAO presents a graded challenge for players to surmount, and part of surmounting that challenge is progressing and developing, both in terms of character advancement and player technique. Knowing what stuff does in meaningful terms gives the player the tools to make informed choices and progress their characters and their own tactical efficacy. Simply because no other players are relying upon my contribution does not mean that I am suddenly not interested in trying to play effectively and improve my characters.

[MrFish]

kelsjet wrote...

"Not all games need combat logs, DA:O is one of those games".

Tell me at what point does magic become useless for scaling with some spells?
Or when I should take dex over strength with a tank?
Or whether +5% spirit damage +5% fire damage is better than +8% naturea and +1 magic?
Or how much magic stat I need on a warrior to increase healing recieved to a viable level to justify Any points in it.

I can't get concrete answers without knowing the exact maths behind it.

Is it worse spawning 5 mobs with 30 strength or 4 with 40?  Can my players do 100 dps or 200?  What's a party minimum dps at level 10, what's its maximum?

These are all things module builders may consider balancing around to make sure that scripted fights won't be impossible with some groups and a faceroll with others.

Oh hey, wait, you don't want a combat log, so I'll just blindly make everything too hard for you.  Have a nice day.

[kelsjet]

soteria wrote...
 Action games like Diablo don't really need a combat log since success in combat is based on different factors.

(emphasis mine)
This is exactly my point. Success in combat in DA:O is 'based on different factors'.

Besides, didn't you say earlier that whether or not a game needs a combat log should be determined on an individual basis, not a genre?  So isn't this line a bit hypocritical?

How is it hypocritical? Games are a subset of genres. ME, KOTOR, DA:O, NWN, BG, are all games in the same genre. I could have just as easily named a multitude of RTSs, FPSs, Sims etc.

I'm skeptical about the difficulty involved--I doubt they could have tested the game thoroughly without some sort of combat logging.  The information has to be there; it's a matter of displaying it.  I find it much more likely they don't display a combat log as part of their current philosophy of holding back information about game mechanics.

I am skeptical about your knowledge of game development - I doubt you have ever worked in a large team of developers, artists, designers, engineers, musicians and managers to bring even a single game feature to bear.

[F-C]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

The games based on the D&D license need a combat log to underscore the implementation of the underlying license mechanics. Dragon Age needs no such thing as it uses our own, proprietary ruleset and we deemed the combat log unnecessary and inappropriate for the amount of floating point data that was would have to be displayed to reflect all elements of the ruleset.

In short: The combat log was a holdover from pen and paper and we decided it was not necessary for the game experience we wanted. EoS.

i was just saying earlier in another thread how all the numbers in RPG games were really only needed for a Game Master in a pen and paper rpg and wernt really needed as a player. thats good stuff.

Georg for the win.

[MrFish]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

In short: The combat log was a holdover from pen and paper and we decided it was not necessary for the game experience we wanted. EoS.

I'm not entirely sure how impressed the module builders will be if you're sticking to that.

[-XM-]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

The games based on the D&D license need a combat log to underscore the implementation of the underlying license mechanics. Dragon Age needs no such thing as it uses our own, proprietary ruleset and we deemed the combat log unnecessary and inappropriate for the amount of floating point data that was would have to be displayed to reflect all elements of the ruleset.

In short: The combat log was a holdover from pen and paper and we decided it was not necessary for the game experience we wanted. EoS.

If that is your genuine opinion, then why create the Missing Manual website. Do you genuinely believe a complete manual is just "extra"? If we had accurate skill/talent/spell descriptions, I am sure most of us (including me) would not ask for a combat log. All we want at the end of the day, is knowing what is actually going on with our characters in combat, and it is now clear we cannot get this information via the existing manual or the skill descriptions. If we had those, not many people would ask for a combat log to try and see what is going on.

[F-C]

MrFish wrote...

I'm not entirely sure how impressed the module builders will be if you're sticking to that.

from what i read the numbers are available through the toolkit which makes this point rather moot.

Modifié par F-C, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:44 .

[MrFish]

F-C wrote...

MrFish wrote...

I'm not entirely sure how impressed the module builders will be if you're sticking to that.

from what i read the numbers are available through the toolkit which makes this point rather moot.

If by numbers, you mean base, not the calculations, then yes.  The calculations for What Will Happen At Time Of Execution are not.

[F-C]

MrFish wrote...

F-C wrote...

MrFish wrote...

I'm not entirely sure how impressed the module builders will be if you're sticking to that.

from what i read the numbers are available through the toolkit which makes this point rather moot.

If by numbers, you mean base, not the calculations, then yes.  The calculations for What Will Happen At Time Of Execution are not.

set the numbers, play your mod, adjust the numbers.

its not really that hard.

[soteria]

[quote]kelsjet wrote...

[quote]soteria wrote...

Never played ME.  Didn't KOTOR have a combat log?  Can someone confirm that?  Regardless, with the smaller group, simpler tactics, more information available in other ways, and general face-roll nature of both games all the way through, it wasn't something I thought much about.  Besides, even if KOTOR didn't have a combat log, previous Bioware games still did have one, and many of us used it.[/quote]

You have essentially stated exactly what I showed to be false in my original post. "Game X had a combat log so game Y must have on" is not a valid reason for having one. KOTOR and ME didnt have combat logs, everything went along just fine.

[/quote]
[/quote]

Hmm.  Someone else agreed with me that KOTOR had a combat log, interesting.  Anyway, you didn't show it to be false; you stated that you think it's false. 

[quote]soteria wrote...

You're welcome to regard the probability in any manner you choose, but since it happened, I'm not inclined to care what you think about said probability.  Actually, I admit I'm not sure "it" happened, since I have no clue what happened--no combat log, see.  I can only speculate on what happened, sometimes.  Well, OBVIOUSLY they died because their HP ran out, but whether it was the archers firing from far off, the monsters beating on them from close up, or the mage casting a spell from somewhere else did it, I can't say.

Politeness aside, your suggestion that I just manage combat better is, frankly, idiotic, insulting, and not even pertinent to the discussion.  Pausing the game doesn't allow me to go back and see what happened 3 seconds ago when I was messing with a different character.  Even the floating numbers disapear after a few seconds.[/quote]

My point is that having a combat log would not have prevented that situation, and that the error is elsewhere (in combat management). I apologise if that comes across as being insulting. But it is still the case.

[/quote]
[/quote]

It would have stopped it from happening again.  Unlike you, I make mistakes in combat sometimes.  If I have a combat log I can review, that makes it easier for bad players like me to go back and figure out what I did wrong to avoid that in the future.  I'm sorry that's so hard for a gaming god like yourself to understand.


[quote]
Actually, I probably wouldn't have taken the spell at all if I knew how little it did for the cost/duration.  So no, the added stats wouldn't be superflous.  They would have saved me a talent--your claim that my behavior wouldn't change is completely invalid.  Why would you even think that?  If the actual number didn't matter, why would I bother going through the trouble of researching how much it helped?[/quote]

This is a matter of opinion. I, for example, think it is a very valid point investment, since it is still a unique ability. Saying "i dont feel it is good enough" is just your opinion, one that is born out of a somewhat questionable understanding of the existing game (as your scenario above somewhat eludes to). If there is a problem with the spell, that is, again, a balance issue, not a "this would work if I had a combat log" issue.
[/quote]
[/quote]

No, that's the opposite of opinion.  You said my behavior wouldn't have changed, but that is false.  It would have changed.  That's not an opinion.  *Your* behavior might not have changed, but mine would have.  It doesn't matter to me if you value the spell more than I do, as everyone plays their own way.  But, since you disagree with my choices, I guess that means you'll just redirect instead of admitting you were wrong.  The point is, if I had more information before I would have made different choices.  That's not an opinion, that's a fact.  Learn to understand the difference between an opinion and a fact.



[quote]
Actually, 'my whole point' was far more nuanced then that. In a nutshell, as I have stated many times, my point is:

"Not all games need combat logs, DA:O is one of those games".

[/quote]

In your mind, maybe.  In your post, all you talk about is how a combat log and stats relate to MMOs, specifically, how players who have played MMOs now think they need a combat log.  Then you went on to list what are apparently the only two things you think a combat log is valuabe for.  Ironically those are two things I don't really use it for.

Later on you moved to insulting people who want one to see how they died.  If broadening the scope of your insulting attitude is nuance...

[Statue]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

The games based on the D&D license need a combat log to underscore the implementation of the underlying license mechanics. Dragon Age needs no such thing as it uses our own, proprietary ruleset and we deemed the combat log unnecessary and inappropriate for the amount of floating point data that was would have to be displayed to reflect all elements of the ruleset.

In short: The combat log was a holdover from pen and paper and we decided it was not necessary for the game experience we wanted. EoS.

A log could display selectively if there'd be too much otherwise. They're often set by default to show a limited subset thought most pertinent. I note that you don't address the other part of the issue - the in-game tooltips and descriptions being non-specific.

Does it concern you that there is so much demand in the community for these absent features, and would a significant proportion of DAO customers wishing to have a combat log and specific descriptors for equipment and spells sway the development team towards reconsidering their provision (i.e. adding through patching)?

Modifié par Statue, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:53 .

[Dex1701]

kelsjet wrote...
This is exactly my point. Success in combat in DA:O is 'based on different factors'.

Different factors than character stats, a stat-based RPG system, virual die-rolls?  Really?

[kelsjet]

MrFish wrote...

Tell me at what point does magic become useless for scaling with some spells?

They don't. The game is designed with proportional scaling. If spell X does more damage then spell Y in 0 magic, it will still be X > Y in 1000 magic. Again, take note, the game is designed this way.

Or when I should take dex over strength with a tank?

When you have enough Str to wear the biggest armor class (armors tell you how much str you need).

Or whether +5% spirit damage +5% fire damage is better than +8% naturea and +1 magic?

Depends on which spells you use in combat, not the damage values of those spells. If you are a nature caster, then take +nature. If you are a heavy spirit caster, take spirit. Simple, isnt it? Note, it has nothing to do with your spells and everything to do with how you specced your character.

Or how much magic stat I need on a warrior to increase healing recieved to a viable level to justify Any points in it.

You do not need to put any points in magic as a warrior. Your healer's spells are more than enough for you not to have to micro that stat for your warrior. Again, its purely simple and intuitive (warriors with magic? comeon). Proof? it has been done already. Perfectly capable warrior tanks without any additional points in magic.

I can't get concrete answers without knowing the exact maths behind it.

Yes, you can, I just gave you some.

Is it worse spawning 5 mobs with 30 strength or 4 with 40?  Can my players do 100 dps or 200?  What's a party minimum dps at level 10, what's its maximum?

Why does party min/max DPS even matter at any level, let alone lvl 10? Take note, you are not going to meet any encounter in this game (trust me, I have seen them all so far) which will require you to micromanage your party DPS. Did you every have to do it in Mass Effect?

These are all things module builders may consider balancing around to make sure that scripted fights won't be impossible with some groups and a faceroll with others.

Oh hey, wait, you don't want a combat log, so I'll just blindly make everything too hard for you.  Have a nice day.

Have you even seen the DA:O module builder? It has every single thing a developer needs to balance the module. You don't need a combat log to balance the module as a developer, you just need MS Excel.

[kelsjet]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

The games based on the D&D license need a combat log to underscore the implementation of the underlying license mechanics. Dragon Age needs no such thing as it uses our own, proprietary ruleset and we deemed the combat log unnecessary and inappropriate for the amount of floating point data that was would have to be displayed to reflect all elements of the ruleset.

In short: The combat log was a holdover from pen and paper and we decided it was not necessary for the game experience we wanted. EoS.

Thank you for the confirmation of Bioware's position on this matter. I am pleased that you agree.

[Sakiradesu]

You guys don't need to attack him for what he believes to be true.. It makes us all seem rather ungrateful and demanding.

I still want combat logs though. I'm just saying we can be more polite about it..

...what is wrong with these forums and double spacing!

Modifié par Sakiradesu, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:57 .

[MrFish]

kelsjet wrote...
You do not need to put any points in magic as a warrior. Your healer's spells are more than enough for you not to have to micro that stat for your warrior. Again, its purely simple and intuitive (warriors with magic? comeon). Proof? it has been done already. Perfectly capable warrior tanks without any additional points in magic.

That's not actually concrete, seeing as healing scales with magic of the caster and magic of the recipent.  You have to think outside the box a little, perhaps but it doesn't mean its not a mechanic.

You can hunt for that quote yourself, i think Meister Woo posted it in a thread on healing feasibility.

[kelsjet]

Dex1701 wrote...

Different factors than character stats, a stat-based RPG system, virual die-rolls?  Really?

Funny thing is, Diablo had all those things as well.

[Georg Zoeller]

There is a HUGE difference between having numbers for abilities and having a combat log though. We had a combat log in prototypes and it not working, so it got cut. Nobody at BioWare missed it, in fact it helped us declutter the interface significantly. Reviewers don't seem to miss it either.

Sorry, we consider it a legacy element that is not essential to the experience and removing it really helped us to modernize the UI and make the game more accessible. There is no chance for a combat log to ever make it into the game.

In regards to 'the missing manual' - I would have loved to ship talent and spell descriptions with detailed
numbers, but due to the localization schedule, that was not possible. It would either have been detailed, but completely wrong numbers (9
month or so of continued balancing) or the current solution. We chose
the current one. Those are the realities of large scale game development  - not all things work out like you want them to and sometimes you have to make hard choices.

All that I do believe that the game can be played and enjoyed without the numbers - it's a single player game where tactical approach has a lot more impact on the outcome of combat than individual talents or whether or not I spent a bunch of points on attribute A instead of B.  Testing has confirmed this. DPs optimization is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.

-XM- wrote...

If that is your genuine opinion, then why create the Missing Manual website. Do you genuinely believe a complete manual is just "extra"? If we had accurate skill/talent/spell descriptions, I am sure most of us (including me) would not ask for a combat log. All we want at the end of the day, is knowing what is actually going on with our characters in combat, and it is now clear we cannot get this information via the existing manual or the skill descriptions. If we had those, not many people would ask for a combat log to try and see what is going on.

[Statue]

kelsjet wrote...
Why does party min/max DPS even matter at any level, let alone lvl 10? Take note, you are not going to meet any encounter in this game (trust me, I have seen them all so far) which will require you to micromanage your party DPS. Did you every have to do it in Mass Effect?

To be honest, if I find myself sailing through encounters without feeling challenged enough to have to tactically micromanage, I'll be cranking up the difficulty setting. I like being challenged so I have to really struggle (in a non-frustrating way of course) and devise the most cunning plans possible.

[soteria]

[quote]kelsjet wrote...

[quote]soteria wrote...
 Action games like Diablo don't really need a combat log since success in combat is based on different factors.
[/quote]

(emphasis mine)
This is exactly my point. Success in combat in DA:O is 'based on different factors'.

[/quote]
[/quote]

No, it's not your point at all.  If you had thought about what I meant by "different" you might have realized that, but I guess it's probably my fault for not spelling it out for you.  Action games primarily rely on what some people call "twitch" skills; reaction, timing, precise clicking, and the ability to move and react in real time, for success in combat.  RPGs primarily rely on stat-based systems for determining success in combat.  That's not the point you were looking for.

[quote]
[quote]
I'm skeptical about the difficulty involved--I doubt they could have tested the game thoroughly without some sort of combat logging.  The information has to be there; it's a matter of displaying it.  I find it much more likely they don't display a combat log as part of their current philosophy of holding back information about game mechanics.[/quote]

I am skeptical about your knowledge of game development - I doubt you have ever worked in a large team of developers, artists, designers, engineers, musicians and managers to bring even a single game feature to bear.

[/quote]

Oooh, that's relevant.  Because I TOTALLY have to have experience working in a large team of developers etc to understand the decisions involved.  And here's the funny part--a few posts above yours, Georg basically confirmed what I said about their design philosophy and why they didn't implement a combat log.  Be skeptical all you want, but admit I was right, first.

Modifié par soteria, 20 novembre 2009 - 02:02 .

[Lycoris81]

d&d pnp and baldur's gate were existed long before mmo's. so your whole argument comparing them with mmo's is false.

[dirtywick]

I've found there's a startling lack of information in game about a lot of things. I imagine it's better on the PC though. In any case, I really don't like having to "feel" what some effects are, as in it feels like my character performs better while haste is active or it feels like this +4 attack mace is better than the +2 damage longsword.



Regardless, I don't buy that a lack of accessible information is good for this game. It's fairly difficult and a lot is going on to characters you need to keep track of but are out of your immediate view. The OP said there's no need or requirement, the first being quite debatable, but you wanted a benefit, there you go: When I'm focused on one character and look up at the other three portraits and Wynne is dead, at least I'll know how it happened.