277 réponses à ce sujet

[Georg Zoeller]

I'm sure they're not impressed by the lack of horses, cloaks and all the other things that totally make or break an RPG, right?

Point being, a large part of practical game design is working with what you got. A good designer is who can work within the constraints and resources available to craft a great experience for the user.

If I read some of the 'omg, no feature X  - the game is doomed' threads on the tools forums, I can't help but wonder how we managed to craft a game of the size of Dragon Age with those stone age tools we apparently have

MrFish wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...

In short: The combat log was a holdover from pen and paper and we decided it was not necessary for the game experience we wanted. EoS.

I'm not entirely sure how impressed the module builders will be if you're sticking to that.

[MrFish]

Statue wrote...

kelsjet wrote...
Why does party min/max DPS even matter at any level, let alone lvl 10? Take note, you are not going to meet any encounter in this game (trust me, I have seen them all so far) which will require you to micromanage your party DPS. Did you every have to do it in Mass Effect?

To be honest, if I find myself sailing through encounters without feeling challenged enough to have to tactically micromanage, I'll be cranking up the difficulty setting. I like being challenged so I have to really struggle (in a non-frustrating way of course) and devise the most cunning plans possible.

The numbers were pulled out of my head, I said 10 because 10 is a good mid range to balance a mod around if you only want a handful of abilities and a reasonably short mod.  I could have easily said 50 and you'd have hit me with "but we can't have level 50".  That's really not my point.

There's more to DA:O than the official campaign.  I'm not even remotely sure why everyone thinks that's the be all and end all of it.

[kelsjet]

Statue wrote...

To be honest, if I find myself sailing through encounters without feeling challenged enough to have to tactically micromanage, I'll be cranking up the difficulty setting. I like being challenged so I have to really struggle (in a non-frustrating way of course) and devise the most cunning plans possible.

Tactical challenge can be achieved without delving into the mathematical models of combat. That is why DA:Os combat system is so refreshing and exciting, and why DA:O is the perfect proof for the statement.

[JHorwath]

Stats are fun. Sure it's a single player game but I like to see how the characters I create perform and you can use these stats to accomplish your goal.  It's not about being the best for me, but being able to craft a character that fits the rpg parameters I set out to accomplish.  I want to be able to create those characters with that rpg outlook.  Having more stats to achieve that goal is helpful.  It's not about boasting on a forum, at least not for me, and the whole look at me mindset.  However, stats are fun.  If a game had enough stats it could have the 'tolerable' visuals. 

Besides MMO's can be non pvp where the only goal is to create a character that you prefer.  I see even more stats as providing an outlet to accomplish those goals.  Besides, what if you want to create some user content around your goals.  More stats will help you do that.  I used to dm, yes nerd, but the stats made creating encounters that much better.

*The only reason I ever brought up an MMO was because Dragon Age reminded me of the combat in FFXI, the basic combat that is.  Then again if you think about that type of setup, like many posters before have said, has been around for a long time.  Old d&d had that it's just it wasn't in a game.  Dragon Age is the closest thing to FFXI combat scheme that I have ever seen and it's a single player game.  I don't know if you get what I mean but anyway.

Modifié par JHorwath, 20 novembre 2009 - 02:05 .

[F-C]

dirtywick wrote...
When I'm focused on one character and look up at the other three portraits and Wynne is dead, at least I'll know how it happened.

i can tell you how that happened :

dirtywick wrote...
I'm focused on one character

[MrFish]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

I'm sure they're not impressed by the lack of horses, cloaks and all the other things that totally make or break an RPG, right?

Touche.

Although I've never quite seen the appeal of cloaks.  They're a bugger to animate properly and clip through everything.  That's one thing I'll give you kudos for cutting.  Horses are something that is only feasible in certain types of game anyway, we both know this so its just semantics


Maybe I sounded a little harsh, for that I'm sorry.  But I still stand by my point that realtime combat calculations are more of a convenience for modders and players alike than a hinderance for others.  Even if it just showed in the debug message box I'd have been happy, or maybe live dumping into a .txt file.

Random thought then, are there any run commands, such as the one to allow the Debug "terminal" which would dump data or did you cut it so long ago that the remnents of the debug code for the combat engine are long gone?  When it Was in, was it a UI feature like the one in NwN or a text file output I wonder.

[sugasugaki]

Whether DAO is or isn't based off the D&D ruleset is completely irrelevant to the point.



The point is that BG2 had a combat log that had more information about the battle. DAO... doesn't have any combat log. I have no idea how mental resistances work, physical resistances work, why my 2h misses the mark 25% of the time, why a spell got resisted, etc.

[Lozamatoz]

We can continue to argue over whether it would be better or worse to have a combat log, but surely it is all down to personal preference? Some people like extreme micro-management, to see every dice roll, to check which type of gear performs better, or what spell works best on which enemy, but others prefer immersion, chaos or a more cinematic approach (which is what I prefer).



Maybe the combat log should have been included as a seperate option that can be enabled if you wish it to be. That way, everyone is happy. I don't think it is something that should be forced upon us (I REALLY do not want to see a WoW style text-log thingamajig taking up 1/5 of my screen)

[Georg Zoeller]

We used an commercial high performance logging and analysis system with the game (outputting to an external app on a second monitor) that we were not able to bundle, so the debug output side of things for mod developers is definitely lacking at this point.

I absolutely agree that there should be debug output for modders. I'm sure that something the liveteam is looking into (although it never hurts to ask them for it directly on the toolset forums).

What wouldn't help is asking for a full in game UI combat log, because that's not going to happen

Modifié par Georg Zoeller, 20 novembre 2009 - 02:12 .

[Spaceweed10]

Sakiradesu wrote...

You guys don't need to attack him for what he believes to be true.. It makes us all seem rather ungrateful and demanding.

I still want combat logs though. I'm just saying we can be more polite about it..

...what is wrong with these forums and double spacing!

Well, you're not gonna get them - end of...

[kelsjet]

sugasugaki wrote...

Whether DAO is or isn't based off the D&D ruleset is completely irrelevant to the point.

The point is that BG2 had a combat log that had more information about the battle. DAO... doesn't have any combat log. I have no idea how mental resistances work, physical resistances work, why my 2h misses the mark 25% of the time, why a spell got resisted, etc.

Ironically, the answer to every single one of these questions is available when you hit 'C' and bring up your character screen and hover your mouse over your core stats.

[dirtywick]

F-C wrote...

dirtywick wrote...
When I'm focused on one character and look up at the other three portraits and Wynne is dead, at least I'll know how it happened.

i can tell you how that happened :

dirtywick wrote...
I'm focused on one character

OR some kind of display telling me what's going on would be helpful.

[Sword_Slashing_Toner]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

The games based on the D&D license need a combat log to underscore the implementation of the underlying license mechanics. Dragon Age needs no such thing as it uses our own, proprietary ruleset and we deemed the combat log unnecessary and inappropriate for the amount of floating point data that was would have to be displayed to reflect all elements of the ruleset.

In short: The combat log was a holdover from pen and paper and we decided it was not necessary for the game experience we wanted. EoS.

Hopefully we may have some intuitive game modders who can compensate for this somehow, as it's clear from this thread that some people believe it will add something extra to their game experience.  (Edit: Well with regards to the previous posts it's been stated to be most likely impossible, which is a shame )


I respect that it's something that Bioware feel did not fit with the game experience envisioned, but some of us 'old-style' people always like to see the rolls, +s and -s behind actions. I personally see it as a "tactical re-assurance", knowing the figures behind something gives me the ability to see just how much of a difference that 'Sparkly-Item-Of-Power" compares to the "Shiny-Widget-Of-Awesomeness". Yes it has the basic statistical differences, but knowing about the 'derived' alterations is where it really matters, which is something we can't really look into without using the toolset.


Looking at it from a role-playing perspective you can assume that the character wouldn't know ANY of the damage numbers however. I must admit removing the log does take away the risk of over-analysing the game, staring at numbers can sometimes detract from the whole immersion/fantastical-role/other parts of the experience (not to mention the apparent technical difficulties), which Bioware have undoubtedly put incredible effort into achieving.


Although I'm rambing with this whole combat-log thing I personally think you can link it back to human nature, understanding the mechanisms behind how things work is something many people consider for a huge range of things. I think most  "role-playing-people" aren't THAT far off humans to have this almost instinct-like attitude

Modifié par Sword_Slashing_Toner, 20 novembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[MrFish]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

We used a commercial high performance logging and analysis system with the game we were not able to bundle, so the debug output side of things for mod developers is definitely lacking at this point.

I absolutely agree that there should be debug output for modders. I'm sure that something the liveteam is looking into (although it never hurts to ask them for it directly on the toolset forums).

What wouldn't help is asking for a full in game UI combat log, because that's not going to happen

Well at least we agree on some middleground.  I can see why you wouldn't want one in game.  UIs have an unfortunate tendancy to be, well, awful in games and software across the board and the combat log is something that does get in the way of ZenUIing (wisdom bonus to UI building).

I like that you think modders would appreciate it.  Thats what quite a few arguments have cropped up around.  If the modder can tidy up some descriptions to make the system they create understandable to the player then the player is happy.

You wouldn't happen to want to throw a ball at your LiveTeam manager and see if its a bull he fancies trying to look at.  No doubt there's already alot on that plate, as its still only just past release week but no harm in adding it to the feature brainstorm

Anyway, thanks for replying Captain Zoeller

[F-C]

dirtywick wrote...

OR some kind of display telling me what's going on would be helpful.

what do you call their life bars going down in the upper left corner?

[Lycoris81]

i tell you why i want a bg like cl. because most of the time i want to see if my x attack or spell hit or dodged and if x enemy attacked me x spell instead of constantly monitoring the head of an npc or pc, his status bar or whatever like that which makes the game more tiring and usually you can't monitor all the information available since its floating either in real time or pause.

All of the above has nothing to with mmo. Its called tactics and time management.
A CL will be a good DLC I must say. I hope Bioware's desicion has nothing to do with consoles or simplifying the game.

Just imagine bg w/o the cl : unknown spell, fail,resist,dispell,protection.. seriously ? 
Or DA don't need them because the magic isn't so deep ? (no offense i just haven't progress enough through the game).

Modifié par Lycoris81, 20 novembre 2009 - 02:23 .

[Nitlan]

As far as DA:O goes I think Georg pretty much resolved the argument about combat logs...



"What wouldn't help is asking for a full in game UI combat log, because that's not going to happen :)"

[MrFish]

Nitlan wrote...

As far as DA:O goes I think Georg pretty much resolved the argument about combat logs...

"What wouldn't help is asking for a full in game UI combat log, because that's not going to happen :)"

Whilst true, he did say the following:
I absolutely agree that there should be debug output for modders. I'm
sure that something the liveteam is looking into (although it never
hurts to ask them for it directly on the toolset forums).

Which, I think is a sensible middle ground.  Although I'm not going to take that as concrete fact, neither should anyone else.  There's always the chance that the LiveTeam trn around and say "No, it's just not possible in any sort of timeframe" and that's that, but there's always the chance that spewing debug out is possible and they agree.  We can all but hope.

[Statue]

kelsjet wrote...

sugasugaki wrote...

Whether DAO is or isn't based off the D&D ruleset is completely irrelevant to the point.

The point is that BG2 had a combat log that had more information about the battle. DAO... doesn't have any combat log. I have no idea how mental resistances work, physical resistances work, why my 2h misses the mark 25% of the time, why a spell got resisted, etc.

Ironically, the answer to every single one of these questions is available when you hit 'C' and bring up your character screen and hover your mouse over your core stats.

But it doesn't answer lots of questions that it should.

What my set bonus actually is, for example, which I have to deduce by a bizarre set of hoopjumping interface-fighting manouvers (debuff, strip, equip pieces one by one, watch my stats change, repeat for my new alternative set) when I could be spared the trouble by accurate and specific descriptors and tooltips.

Same thing with spell descriptions. I can't know what a "chance to paralyze" amounts to, for example, since that description accounts for 0.1% to 99.9%. The deductive workaround for that one, if I want to remain in the game and not in the toolset or on a wiki, is a playtest (without a log to help me note the effects) potentially followed by a reload of  save point prior to selecting that spell should one not operate in the way I gathered it might from a vague description.

[dirtywick]

F-C wrote...

dirtywick wrote...

OR some kind of display telling me what's going on would be helpful.

what do you call their life bars going down in the upper left corner?

I call it a start, but not informative enough as I'd like.  I enjoy the game as is but see merit in a combat log.  I'd prefer more detailed information in general though, especially in spell descriptions and descriptions of active effects.

[Statue]

Nitlan wrote...

As far as DA:O goes I think Georg pretty much resolved the argument about combat logs...

"What wouldn't help is asking for a full in game UI combat log, because that's not going to happen :)"

I'm still wondering about that one. I did ask whether a significantly large proportion of the community wanting one would sway that decision, which one would hope it would. Development very often tries to respond to large-scale demand. The problem is, there is compelling evidence of such a large-scale want with regard both to a combat log, and specific tooltips and descriptions. I've even gone as far as statistically analyzing voting data. With a statistically significant number of users having a preference for an absent feature, isn't a point-blank assertion that it is never to be considered for implementation basically a bit like saying it's not important to please? That would concern me.

[Schyzm]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

I'm sure they're not impressed by the lack of horses, cloaks and all the other things that totally make or break an RPG, right?

Point being, a large part of practical game design is working with what you got. A good designer is who can work within the constraints and resources available to craft a great experience for the user.

If I read some of the 'omg, no feature X  - the game is doomed' threads on the tools forums, I can't help but wonder how we managed to craft a game of the size of Dragon Age with those stone age tools we apparently have

MrFish wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...

In short: The combat log was a holdover from pen and paper and we decided it was not necessary for the game experience we wanted. EoS.

I'm not entirely sure how impressed the module builders will be if you're sticking to that.

wow really defensive mods because rpgers are use to knowing how much dmg their spells and abilities do rather than "a lot" or "a little" or "super duper mondo amounts"  or whatever vague adjective dragon age puts in place of actual information.

[MrFish]

Statue wrote...

Nitlan wrote...

As far as DA:O goes I think Georg pretty much resolved the argument about combat logs...

"What wouldn't help is asking for a full in game UI combat log, because that's not going to happen :)"

I'm still wondering about that one. I did ask whether a significantly large proportion of the community wanting one would sway that decision, which one would hope it would. Development very often tries to respond to large-scale demand. The problem is, there is compelling evidence of such a large-scale want with regard both to a combat log, and specific tooltips and descriptions. I've even gone as far as statistically analyzing voting data. With a statistically significant number of users having a preference for an absent feature, isn't a point-blank assertion that it is never to be considered for implementation basically a bit like saying it's not important to please? That would concern me.

I don't think NwN would have got alot of the post patch support that it did without the strong community and builders backing it.  Some features wanted by the community were too big to patch and had to be expansion-patched in.  Even though this has no multiplayer it still has the strong community.  I guess we can just be vocal and hope now

[F-C]

dirtywick wrote...

I call it a start, but not informative enough as I'd like.  I enjoy the game as is but see merit in a combat log.  I'd prefer more detailed information in general though, especially in spell descriptions and descriptions of active effects.

the way i see it is if you are focused on one character and you see that a group member is taking damage then you would hit pause, switch to that character and survey what is attacking them and make adjustments accordingly from what you see there.

it doesnt really matter if he threw a grenade at you or shot you with an arrow, you should notice the enemy attacking him and realize what you need to. use a potion, cast a heal, run out of line of sight, crowd control the target, or whatever your tactical plan may be for that situation.

having a combat log tell you that X mob hit wynn with Y attack wont really change that, and it wont fix tunnel vision either.

[Seifz]

What's left to say?



Thanks, Georg! Down with combat logs in single-player games!