277 réponses à ce sujet

[kelsjet]

Nomad_Wanderer wrote...

More detailed information about what is happening in the game is never a bad thing.  How can QA be done properly without these sort of logging statements?

There is a qualitative difference between developers (modders) having full access to intricate combat math and logs and players having full disclosure to the same info while playing.

Both Georg Zoeller and I are asserting that the former is fine (everyone wants the game devs and modders to have access to the math through the toolkit, along with all the logging tools that go hand in hand with this) but the latter (players having full access to detailed combat math as well as hardcore combat logging tools), is not required, by design.

Many people in this thread need to gain clarity on this distinction. No one is arguing that mod authors and developers shouldn't have access to both logging tools and combat math. What we are saying however, is that by design, this game does not need a combat log during actual play.

[Aether99]

Lets forget about combat logs for a second and go to damage stats

This one actually interests me more because its something I always expected.  I play DnD with friends (old rulesets) and even then you could break things down to numbers.  X weapon does Y damage, or X spell Does Y damage in Z radius, etc.

Why do the spells not list there damage?  I understand that as your magic increases you do more damage, I however still think it should show how much damage that character can do with that spell.

Id also like theoretical autoattack dps charts, these were always very important to me when it came to tough decisions on weapons and armor, it helped me determine what the best combination was for my character...without it I feel a bit lost sometimes.

How come my defense and armor dont have % scores on them?  Defense increases your ability to avoid damage, so whats my % avoidance? 

These types of things I liked having around, made me feel grounded, I dont like it when I feel like my characters abilities are being kept secret from me.

Granted my post makes it sound like im rather upset, while slightly annoyed, it hasnt stopped me from enjoying the game.  I just get forced to enjoy the story, while the character development ends up being a game of trial and error, and frustration

[prmsntrcrps]

So, basically OP, you think we min-maxers do not have fun while playing? There are different ways to play a game like this yes, and if you do not enjoy minmaxing don't do it - but don't say that we are wrong. I really enjoy getting the most out of my characters, and any tool to help me review my performance will be greatly appriciated and add to my enjoyment of the game.

Edit: Aether99, the %chance to dodge is some complicated roll off the mobs attack score vs your defense - so it would be a different percentage for each type of mob. This is probably why they have not implemented such a feature.

Modifié par prmsntrcrps, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:38 .

[ZappaF]

I never understand Game-Desingner/Developer und Publisher.



A million spoken dialogues, translated in every important Language, - is it necessary?

We don't know! - Can we do that ? - Yes we can! - Will we do that ? - Yes!



A combat Log for Old-School Gamers and Purists, is it necessary ?

We don't know! - Can we do that ? - Yes we can! - Will we do that ? - No!



Best

ZappasGhost

[WillieStyle]

Georg Zoeller wrote...


There is a HUGE difference between having numbers for abilities and having a combat log though. We had a combat log in prototypes and it not working, so it got cut. Nobody at BioWare missed it, in fact it helped us declutter the interface significantly.

Perhaps if you had  a combat log, the dagger/dex bug wouldn't have gone live.

[xIc3x]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

I'm not a fan of polls. Game development decisions are rarely 'should we add feature x'. They're almost always 'do we add feature X or feature Y'

Polls, just like petitions or boycotts (http://i.imgur.com/17vKk.png) usually don't help, because if you ask people 'do you want a cookie', most of them will say yes, even if they don't really feel they need a cookie.

So, a better question would be 'Combat Log' or 'Weapon and Armor Crafting*'? or 'Combat Log' but also an increase in minimum machine spec?

Sounds odd? It isn't - ombat logging is quite performance expensive - pushing a high volume of strings through the scripting VM into the engine and then into the UI is a major performance concern - one of the reasons all the log statements are #ifdef'd out so they don't generate instructinos on the VM.

Does that mean we don't care for the community? No, we're always listening and interested in feedback - but polls, petitions or high volume posting on our forums has/have no more impact that a single well thought out post, a well written review or or a mod that turns out to be very popular, indicating interest for a feature.

And just in general, I'm really absolutely immune to the 'if you don't do what I want your company is bad because it doesn't listen to me about how the game should be made and what features it should have'  school of thought.

Believe me - we've discussed features like the combat log before cutting it. We understoodnd that some people would feel it is absolutely vital - and we made a concious choice, after weighting benefits and drawbacks, to say 'not happening - people who feel it is absolutely vital will have to look elsewhere or resort to modding'. That has nothing to do with not listening to the customer and everything to do with defining the target audience for the game.

I'm not taking joy or pleasure in telling people their favourite feature was cut, deemed legacy or otherwise rejected - but I also feel it is important to be honest and not give people BS about how we're 'thinking about it' and 'maybe gonna add it in the future'.

I feel it makes more sense to give you an indiciation when you're fighting a lost cause or what your options are instead of letting you waste time running against windmills that you won't fell, regardless how often you try.

Granted, it is foolish for me to say 'will never happen', because I know quite well that we can sneak all kinds of things into our game (like cloaks) that we categorically rejected before - but at this point it serves to make a point - chances of getting a combat log of the type like in Baldur's Gate anytime soon are nil. Way too many factors (string performance, UI design considerations, cost vs. benefit analysis, game accessibility) are aligned against it. Some kind of debug output to file or screen is much more likely.


I hope this explanation makes sense to you.

* Used for example purposes only, no upcoming feature implied.

This is why I love Bioware so much. No BS, and a genuine passion for their games. Stardock too while I'm ranting, most publishers/devs won't post so openly on forums. Really appreciate the communication.

Georg Zoeller wrote...


But there are other solutions to some of your concerns as well - what if pause would also pause the floaty system for example...

Pausing the floaties would be a nice touch.


Also, on the idea of combat logs. I don't really think they are necessary. I won't get into it because people have already said what I would have, but basically this game seems designed to not need them and thats awesome.

[Kojiyama]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Given the massive undertaking it would be to redo and retranslate nearly a thousand ability and descriptions in all languages (not to mention the costs associated with that), this is unlikely as far an official patch goes.

Statue wrote...

Any predictions on whether developments will encompass clarifications of the in-game tooltips/descriptions? ("chance to paralyze" becoming "x% chance to paralyze", "low to moderate" becoming "40-50", "character is getting a bonus to armour for wearing a set" becoming "character is getting a bonus of x to armour for wearing a set" etc.)?

Not to be overly difficult or anything... but is there really an extensive localization cost in swapping out a word for "number%" or "number-number" text when said numbers plus a percentage sign does not actually require localization in almost every locale that the game was released in?

Sounds more like people avoiding the actual work involved in properly detailing the effects of the RPG system rather than avoiding the nearly nonexistant localization costs of such a task.

[Kojiyama]

Dupe, delete

Modifié par Kojiyama, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:26 .

[AsheraII]

XavierGrimwand wrote...

soteria wrote...

This is a tactical game, with a lot going on in some fights. If I have someone die suddenly that I wasn't watching, it can be difficult to find out why in DA:O since there is no log. I can't go back and say, "Ok, the Emissary cast death hex and then a hurlock alpha flurried him."

This is it, exactly. THIS is why we NEED a combat log.

This is exactly why we DON'T need a combat log. Watching your toons is ridiculously easy if you know what a spacebar is. The second you go to easymode and /afk, the results are yours to take.

[SheffSteel]

I can appreciate why players want a combat log, and I can appreciate why they want quantitative info in tooltips. We're all used to, in previous D&D based games, being able to read about Fireball and it'd say "damage = 1D6 + 1D6 per caster level up to 10" and another spell would do 1D6 per four caster levels and you'd hang on, carry the three... figure out which one did most damage and cast it. Then you'd see the damage number on the combat log and think huh, most of that was resisted, I need to use a non-fire spell. In DAO your only option is to see the orangey number going up from the target's head (or the word "Immune").

But

A lot of the time you wouldn't get those nice neat short descriptions in the tooltips, if they were made quantitative. D&D was designed to be simple to read, remember and calculate. In DAO it'd be more like "damage = random (10) + 15 + ( ( caster level - 5 ) x 0.1 ) + ( caster spellpower x 0.05 ) + ( height advantage factor ) + . . .
Also, having a combat log would, for many people, only make it shockingly clear that you just don't have access to the rules. You'd still be left wondering what all the bonuses were for, or why they didn't apply, unless the amount of text generated was truly obscene.
On a related note, Georg said that the text output had been #ifdef'd out of the code. For non-programmers, that means that the game, as distributed, cannot be modded to print out combat log information. Therefore, if modders are ever going to get access to a debug screen showing the combat calculations, they are going to have to run a different executable provided separately by Bioware.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 20 novembre 2009 - 02:55 .

[Greye]

I want to say that I really appreciate Georg's detailed and well-articulated response, but I really don't understand Georg's performance argument, that a combat log is so system intensive.

Why did Baldur's Gate have a combat log running on a machine with a Pentium 166 MHz with 16 MB of RAM, and I can't have it on my dual core 2 GHz with 4 GB of RAM?  It *does* sound very odd.

Either/or scenario?  Most of the special effects are overblown, especially buffs and the weapon effects.  They could be half what they are.  There you go.

My issue is more with the lack of a game event log--items received,
what exactly it was that went into my codex and where it went.  I gues I'm joining in asking Bioware to make intelligent games, and my compromise would be to ease off on the gaudy fireworks which are out of place in Ferelden anyway.

[WillieStyle]

A lot of the time you wouldn't get those nice neat short descriptions in the tooltips, if they were made quantitative. D&D was designed to be simple to read, remember and calculate. In DAO it'd be more like "damage = random (10) + 15 + ( ( caster level - 5 ) x 0.1 ) + ( caster spellpower x 0.05 ) + ( height advantage factor ) + . . .

The combat log could dynamically calculate the values. So instead of spell X does [convoluted equation based on your gear or stats], it would instead read, spell X does [Y], where Y is the value of the equation for that particular character. Other games manage to do this easily without taxing my computer. I'm not sure why Dragon Age can't.



As to Greg's post:

If his position is that given the decisions already made in developing Dragon Age, it wouldn't be worth it to go back in and put in a combat log, then fine. Life sucks sometimes.



However, if his position really is that combat logs are an "outdated" feature, then that is kinda scary really. I'd hate to think that the trend for future Bioware games will be vague (and often inaccurate) tooltips and no combat log.

[Sibelius1]

Greye wrote...

I want to say that I really appreciate Georg's detailed and well-articulated response, but I really don't understand Georg's performance argument, that a combat log is so system intensive.

Why did Baldur's Gate have a combat log running on a machine with a Pentium 166 MHz with 16 MB of RAM, and I can't have it on my dual core 2 GHz with 4 GB of RAM?  It *does* sound very odd.

Either/or scenario?  Most of the special effects are overblown, especially buffs and the weapon effects.  They could be half what they are.  There you go.

My issue is more with the lack of a game event log--items received,
what exactly it was that went into my codex and where it went.  I gues I'm joining in asking Bioware to make intelligent games, and my compromise would be to ease off on the gaudy fireworks which are out of place in Ferelden anyway.

I too wonder about the validity of the claim that a combat log is system intensive. Strange.

Also I noticed much disparity between an earlier post of Georg's in this thread and his Missing Manual's desription of Nightmare difficulty

Georg Zoellar Wrote:

All that I do believe that the game can be played and enjoyed without the numbers - it's a single player game where tactical approach has a lot more impact on the outcome of combat than individual talents or whether or not I spent a bunch of points on attribute A instead of B.  Testing has confirmed this. DPs optimization is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.

In his Missing Manual, this is his description of Nightmare Difficulty:

A word about Nightmare difficulty

Nightmare difficulty is designed to provide a challenge to players not content with the challenges that the hard difficulty setting is offering. This mode is punishingly hard and requires the player to understand all aspects of the game in order to overcome their enemies. A well planned character and optimized playthrough path are required to succeed in this mode.

Players should NOT try to play on Nightmare the first time they play the game, it is guaranteed to be not fun that way.

Spot any contradictions there?

Modifié par Sibelius1, 20 novembre 2009 - 03:53 .

[SheffSteel]

Willie, you've highlighted another problem here. Some people want to see all of the numbers because they want to test out mechanics or understand the rules or min/max or whatever other reasons. Some people would be happier with a simpler log. It's going to be difficult to make everyone happy, unless the ideal-world combat log also had a detail / declutter setting.



Greye, I'm afraid to say that yes, formatting and outputting the sort of detailed calculations that are going on would indeed cause performance issues on a minimum spec machine. It might seem unreasonable to you but if a game programmer says so, how are you going to argue? Georg mentioned that the debug output was going through a VM - a virtual machine - which does add a layer of inefficiency compared perhaps to the older BG/NWN log systems.

[Pellegrin]

Bottom line...it's a useful feature that probably won't be crazy hard to add. Transport combat results to a text file and spit it back out on to the screen.



Why do people argue against features being added?

[WillieStyle]

SheffSteel wrote...

Willie, you've highlighted another problem here. Some people want to see all of the numbers because they want to test out mechanics or understand the rules or min/max or whatever other reasons. Some people would be happier with a simpler log. It's going to be difficult to make everyone happy, unless the ideal-world combat log also had a detail / declutter setting.

You're conflating tooltips/manuals with combat logs.  No one is asking for a realtime combat log spitting out equations each time an enemy archer hits you with an arrow.  They want a realtime combat log that tells you things like:
-Who just hit you.
-What did they hit you with
-Did you resist
etc.
So a typical combat log entry would look like:
Genlock Archer's Critical Shot hits Leliana for 27 physical damage
or
Morigan's Cone of Cold was resisted by Hurlock Alpha
etc.

Games that are 4 years older than DA:O managed to do this on computers less powerful than the minum requirements for this game.  Saying a combat log would necessarily hamper performance implies that Bioware employs bad programmers.

Greye, I'm afraid to say that yes, formatting and outputting the sort of detailed calculations that are going on would indeed cause performance issues on a minimum spec machine. It might seem unreasonable to you but if a game programmer says so, how are you going to argue? Georg mentioned that the debug output was going through a VM - a virtual machine - which does add a layer of inefficiency compared perhaps to the older BG/NWN log systems.

Look, there might be some features specific to Dragon Age: Origins that mean a combat log isn't feasible at this time. Fine, I hope they try to avoid such features in the future.  But the notion that a combat log would necessarily cause performance issues on a minimum spec machine is simply nonsense.

Editted for grammar.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 20 novembre 2009 - 04:11 .

[addiction21]

Pellegrin wrote...

Bottom line...it's a useful feature that probably won't be crazy hard to add. Transport combat results to a text file and spit it back out on to the screen.

Why do people argue against features being added?

Bottom line I think you know little of what it takes to create any game and what goes on behind the scenes (if you did I doubt you would be saying "probably wont be crazy hard")

Why do people continue to waste their time argueing for a feature after being told "NO!!!! not happening" ?

For all you still complaining about it after the fact. If you pulled your heads out your ass's he told you how it would get Bioware support. I suggest you go back, wipe the **** from your face, and actualy read zellers posts instead of jumping up and down screaming at a brick wall.

[Galooba]

WillieStyle wrote...

Game that are 4 years older than DA:O managed to do this on computers less powerful than the minum requirements for this game.  Saying combat log would necessarily hamper performance implies that Bioware employs bad programmers.

Combat log would necessarily cause performance issues on a minimum spec machine is simply nonsense.

That just simply isn't true. Different engines are designed with different requirements. Those games were designed from the very beginning to include combat logs, DA wasn't. You can argue that it was a poor design decesion, but it is certainly not indicative of poor programming.

Modifié par Galooba, 20 novembre 2009 - 04:17 .

[MartinJHolm]

While I do agree with the OP to some degree , combat-logs aren't exclusive to MMO's, actually I'm fairly certain the original NWN had one.

Min-maxing was always a big thing in NWN and you really want to know the numbers if you are min-maxing. (remember the build thing was even featured back then).

Personally I would really want a combat-log for several reasons.

Damage I take - I want to see why I have problems in a particular battle.

Damage I do - I would like to see the exact numbers so I can use my skills the best possible way.

I too dislike the whole mmo-attitude towards all other non-mmo games but you missed with this one.

[addiction21]

Sibelius1 wrote...

Greye wrote...

I want to say that I really appreciate Georg's detailed and well-articulated response, but I really don't understand Georg's performance argument, that a combat log is so system intensive.

Why did Baldur's Gate have a combat log running on a machine with a Pentium 166 MHz with 16 MB of RAM, and I can't have it on my dual core 2 GHz with 4 GB of RAM?  It *does* sound very odd.

Either/or scenario?  Most of the special effects are overblown, especially buffs and the weapon effects.  They could be half what they are.  There you go.

My issue is more with the lack of a game event log--items received,
what exactly it was that went into my codex and where it went.  I gues I'm joining in asking Bioware to make intelligent games, and my compromise would be to ease off on the gaudy fireworks which are out of place in Ferelden anyway.

I too wonder about the validity of the claim that a combat log is system intensive. Strange.

Also I noticed much disparity between an earlier post of Georg's in this thread and his Missing Manual's desription of Nightmare difficulty

Georg Zoellar Wrote:

All that I do believe that the game can be played and enjoyed without the numbers - it's a single player game where tactical approach has a lot more impact on the outcome of combat than individual talents or whether or not I spent a bunch of points on attribute A instead of B.  Testing has confirmed this. DPs optimization is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.

In his Missing Manual, this is his description of Nightmare Difficulty:

A word about Nightmare difficulty

Nightmare difficulty is designed to provide a challenge to players not content with the challenges that the hard difficulty setting is offering. This mode is punishingly hard and requires the player to understand all aspects of the game in order to overcome their enemies. A well planned character and optimized playthrough path are required to succeed in this mode.

Players should NOT try to play on Nightmare the first time they play the game, it is guaranteed to be not fun that way.

Spot any contradictions there?

I see non since people have been playing succesfully on nightmare without any combat logs. Just goes to show you the game is understandable with out those combat logs.

[Tennmuerti]

You know after playing through DA:O I realised that I did not miss the combat log at all. To my surprise.



Yes it was in BG and in other older rpgs and I am a stat junkie when playing an MMO. But here for this game I felt like it was a good thing that there was no combat log. It did not take up space on the screen and did not distract me from the action and from making tactical decisions in the game. The experience just felt better for not having a combat log. When it isn't there its is just one more thing that is not breaking my 4rth wall. The floating numbers were enough for me to know what was going on.



For myself I would chalk it up for one of the things DA:O did right.

[Bane]

I stopped reading the OP as soon as it said "MMO whiplash". It's obvious you have no grasp of the concept that powergaming, munchkinism, theorycrafting, whatever you want to call it existed long before the MMO.

I like powergaming my characters, it's fun for me. I've never played an MMO. Your theory is busted.

[Chlamydion]

Why are so many folks so determined that this game must never ever ever provide information to the player? Is it to maintain someone's eliteness?



If a combat log can't be added by modders or the developers -- not if it won't be, but if it can't be -- then so be it. That design decision was made based on some logic that completely escapes me even after reading this thread. It isn't possible.



But if it it's possible -- even with some sort of minor reduction in performance or with a reduction in some graphics effects -- then how is it wrong to wish for one? I'm not gonna mod it; that's not my thing. But why all the righteous rage over some of us wishing Bioware had made a different decision? Geeze, folks, what about the people who wished that the dog was a cat? Or who wished that Morrigan had been a redhead? It's not a crime to wish for something, even if it's not likely to happen.



Go sit by a highway and watch car wrecks something instead of taking your angst out on the forums. Geeze.

[Sibelius1]

addiction21 wrote...

Sibelius1 wrote...

Greye wrote...

I want to say that I really appreciate Georg's detailed and well-articulated response, but I really don't understand Georg's performance argument, that a combat log is so system intensive.

Why did Baldur's Gate have a combat log running on a machine with a Pentium 166 MHz with 16 MB of RAM, and I can't have it on my dual core 2 GHz with 4 GB of RAM?  It *does* sound very odd.

Either/or scenario?  Most of the special effects are overblown, especially buffs and the weapon effects.  They could be half what they are.  There you go.

My issue is more with the lack of a game event log--items received,
what exactly it was that went into my codex and where it went.  I gues I'm joining in asking Bioware to make intelligent games, and my compromise would be to ease off on the gaudy fireworks which are out of place in Ferelden anyway.

I too wonder about the validity of the claim that a combat log is system intensive. Strange.

Also I noticed much disparity between an earlier post of Georg's in this thread and his Missing Manual's desription of Nightmare difficulty

Georg Zoellar Wrote:

All that I do believe that the game can be played and enjoyed without the numbers - it's a single player game where tactical approach has a lot more impact on the outcome of combat than individual talents or whether or not I spent a bunch of points on attribute A instead of B.  Testing has confirmed this. DPs optimization is neat, but really not required at all to play the game.

In his Missing Manual, this is his description of Nightmare Difficulty:

A word about Nightmare difficulty

Nightmare difficulty is designed to provide a challenge to players not content with the challenges that the hard difficulty setting is offering. This mode is punishingly hard and requires the player to understand all aspects of the game in order to overcome their enemies. A well planned character and optimized playthrough path are required to succeed in this mode.

Players should NOT try to play on Nightmare the first time they play the game, it is guaranteed to be not fun that way.

Spot any contradictions there?

I see non since people have been playing succesfully on nightmare without any combat logs. Just goes to show you the game is understandable with out those combat logs.

There is a clear contradiction in the two statements Mr Zoellar has written. You know it. Don't deny it

[Sibelius1]

Double post...Again!
 
And quotiung about 6 levels deep, this is awful

Modifié par Sibelius1, 20 novembre 2009 - 04:26 .