447 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

why does everything have to be synonymous with our world's history? Why can't a fantasy world have full blown atheists? Why can't some things not be completely similar to our world?

I say let full blown atheists exist.

Personally, I don't think the game world is set up well enough to allow for full on Athiests. The Questiong of Beliefs isn't something that generally comes about when mages can see what seems to be the Black City in the Fade and you have the Darkspawn, constant reminders that absolute evil exists. The majority of the people would need the comfort that their religion offers them.

[Zanallen]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Or rather, Leliana interpreted it as a joke. How it was intended is entirely up to the player.

Playing Devil's Advocate just a little bit here, because I'm well aware of the realities of the situation... the NPC can only react as the writer's intended. So, as far as the game is concerned, how the line is intended is entirely irrelevant.

Ideally (and expensively, if the PC is voiced), the player can select what words she says as well as what tone she says them with. And the NPC reacts as they realistically would to those words and that tone. I can say to Leliana "You're crazy" and be a jerk, and she gets pissed off. Cool. Or, I can say "You're crazy" and be joking, and she laughs. Also cool. Or maybe she still gets pissed off, because she doesn't appreciate the player joking about her mental state. But the game would ideally react both to tone and to content, which neither method accomplishes.

That would be expensive regardless of PC voice or not because you would need extra NPC voiced lines as well. Personally, I feel that it would only be viable with no VO at all.

[Aesieru]

I believe very firmly that a person with real competence especially if they gained the Templars respect (by coming out of that organization or being liked by it to some degree prior to becoming the Vicount) could definitely manipulate things and perhaps even put the Templars pack in the "respect the leader" position.

[Aaleel]

Zanallen wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

why does everything have to be synonymous with our world's history? Why can't a fantasy world have full blown atheists? Why can't some things not be completely similar to our world?

I say let full blown atheists exist.

Personally, I don't think the game world is set up well enough to allow for full on Athiests. The Questiong of Beliefs isn't something that generally comes about when mages can see what seems to be the Black City in the Fade and you have the Darkspawn, constant reminders that absolute evil exists. The majority of the people would need the comfort that their religion offers them.

Only people who have reason to believe in the maker are non tevinter humans.  Qunari don't, dwarves don't, elves don't.  I would think most mages even outside the tevinter would have no reason to.  Everytime I heard Bethany say thank to maker I was like, you're thanking the person whose name people are using as an excuse to lock you up.  I would think most would be like Morrigan.

[thebatmanreborn]

I have a lot of respect for David. Cool interview.

[Zanallen]

Aaleel wrote...

Only people who have reason to believe in the maker are non tevinter humans.  Qunari don't, dwarves don't, elves don't.  I would think most mages even outside the tevinter would have no reason to.  Everytime I heard Bethany say thank to maker I was like, you're thanking the person whose name people are using as an excuse to lock you up.  I would think most would be like Morrigan.

No, but they have reason to believe in other things. The Qunari believe in the Qun, dwarves have their Paragons and ancestors, the elves have their own gods and Tevinter has its Old Gods and the Black Chantry or whatever its called. And belief in the Maker doesn't mean that they follow the Andrastian Chantry.

[Aesieru]

Because that's your personal conception, but when you look at the reality of it... The Chantry is perhaps the biggest super-power to exist what with all those grand marches and all...

AND SO...

Since it's everywhere... it is thus forced on everyone, but it doesn't seem to need forcing and even mages believe in it.

[TEWR]

I imagine that back in the Middle Ages there were in fact atheists.

They just didn't make a case of making it widely known because they'd more than likely face the hangman's noose for being a "heretic".

same deal here. Thedas probably has many people who are atheists but don't go around making it known to everybody.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 avril 2012 - 08:45 .

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine that back in the Middle Ages there were in fact atheists.


They just didn't make a case of making it widely known because they'd more than likely face the hangman's noose for being a "heretic".

same deal here. Thedas probably has many people who are atheists but don't go around making it known to everybody.

Burn 'em.

[Aesieru]

I don't think Atheism is as popular as you think it is, especially in the OLDER times, and CERTAINLY not in the REALLY older times when everyone had to thank the deity before going off to war...

In fact, you could say that religion was common... but people simply converted it into whatever they needed it to be, without all the name changes...

MY GOD SUPPORTS ME BECAUSE I AM AT WAR FOR HIM... not for selfish greed and glory.

---

Do YOU hear the VOICES too?!

Modifié par Aesieru, 01 juin 2011 - 01:59 .

[Zanallen]

"Crom! I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that today, two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom; so grant me this one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to hell with you!"

[Aesieru]

Blood... for the BLOOD God!.... YES!!!

[TEWR]

I'm not saying it was popular. In fact those words were never typed out by my hand

I'm saying it existed and perhaps was hidden by people. Maybe only 20 people in an entire kingdom were atheists. That doesn't mean that atheism didn't exist.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm not saying it was popular. In fact those words were never typed out by my hand

I'm saying it existed and perhaps was hidden by people. Maybe only 20 people in an entire kingdom were atheists. That doesn't mean that atheism didn't exist.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be an option. I'm just saying it doesn't fit well with the setting and, if the game was reactive to it, would probably draw a lot of odd looks if not outright antagonism.

[TEWR]

Oh I don't think the game should recognize it seriously like Templars should a mage character. It should just be there. You should be able to establish your character as an atheist.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh I don't think the game should recognize it seriously like Templars should a mage character. It should just be there. You should be able to establish your character as an atheist.

But if the game doesn't recognize it, isn't it just a pointless choice? You need at least some kind of reactivity. Some dialogue based on what religion or lack thereof that your character follows. Maybe persuasion options with people who share similar beliefs.

[Aesieru]

Hello Templars, I'm not only an Apostate, I'm BLASPHEMOUS!

---

The one person you might meet, unless they all flock to you like a secret society when they find out accidentally because you happened to write that fact in the dead templars body that happens to conveniently be disposed of by these "Atheists"?

Modifié par Aesieru, 01 juin 2011 - 02:25 .

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh I don't think the game should recognize it seriously like Templars should a mage character. It should just be there. You should be able to establish your character as an atheist.

But if the game doesn't recognize it, isn't it just a pointless choice? You need at least some kind of reactivity. Some dialogue based on what religion or lack thereof that your character follows. Maybe persuasion options with people who share similar beliefs.

that's why I said seriously. They can recognize it, just not to the same extent that a Templar should a mage. In Origins, Mother Mallol says "Would you risk your eternal life simply because you choose not to walk in the Maker's light?" or something to that effect

Enough dialogue choices to make it significant enough to the player and, as you said, the ability to converse with a few like-minded individuals

[Urazz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think he's trying to say the general concept of the game wasn't his idea. Either way, the idea of Hawke being an important person in Thedas is great and was sound in theory. In practice, it wasn't great because it was handled poorly.

I think it was handled well in Acts 1 and 2 for you journey on becoming the Champion of Kirkwall but what they screwed up was what you did as Champion in Act 3 by making it a disjointed mess.

[NedPepper]

ExaltedReign wrote...

Thats the thing.

If it doesn't have voiced characters, and you have to do some reading, people look at as a negative.

Games now a days have to compete with other titles. If it were just fans of DA:O playing the games, BW would make little money. And since damn near every single game coming out has voiced characters and action oriented combat, BW needs to hop on that boat just to stay in business.

Out of all my friends, all seven of them who bought DA:O, I was the only one to finish it. I have three friends who finished DA2, but didn't feel like finishing DA:O.

I realize this was posted pages ago, but I think it needs to be repeated.  I, too, had a TON of friends who went out and bought DA: O based on my love of the game, the great reviews, the buzz...well, 80% of them never finished it.  In fact, a lot of them quit at Ostagar.  They bought the game...and never played it.  And they didn't buy DA 2.....

Mass Effect 2 on the other hand...ALL of my gamer friends, fantasy lovers or not, played and loved that game.  Not the first one, though.  That was another case of never finishing it....

Is it a case of 'streamlining'?  I dunno.  The complaints I got from  on DA:O were that the action was too slow, the pacing was too slow, the graphics sucked, and it took too long to get into the meat of the story.  And those that played longer than Ostagar quit once they hit the Fade....or just got bored of being in the Deep Roads.  And even people I know who LOVED DA:O have told me that it's hard to put so much time into a game between work, family, etc.

I don't agree with all of this sentiment...but it's out there.  And I think Bioware knew.

[TEWR]

Aesieru wrote...

Hello Templars, I'm not only an Apostate, I'm BLASPHEMOUS!

---

The one person you might meet, unless they all flock to you like a secret society when they find out accidentally because you happened to write that fact in the dead templars body that happens to conveniently be disposed of by these "Atheists"?

yea where did I say the player should shout it from the rooftops in a city full of people?

You could tell a mother of the Chantry that is out in the city streets that you don't believe in the Maker, and maybe someone overhears you and starts talking to you.

Hell, Aveline is an atheist for Christ's sake!

[Aesieru]

Not true, not true at all.

Cough cough, she married "FOR THE CHANTRY".

You need to re-evaluate her thoughts towards Wesley and her irrational change in personality and thoughts and idealogies because of that...

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

Inconsistent with the setting?
Morrigan's viewpoint seems to be a sensible kind of atheism to me.

The setting of Ferelden as similar to Europe during the Middle Ages. You don't see a whole lot of outright disbelief in God during those times. Question as to the nature of God, yes, but not a lot of true Atheism.

Considering how the treatment of women in Thedas isn't synonymous with the Middle Ages, why can't atheist protagonists exist anymore in Dragon Age when we have Morrigan and Aveline display atheist attitudes?

[TEWR]

Urazz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think he's trying to say the general concept of the game wasn't his idea. Either way, the idea of Hawke being an important person in Thedas is great and was sound in theory. In practice, it wasn't great because it was handled poorly.

I think it was handled well in Acts 1 and 2 for you journey on becoming the Champion of Kirkwall but what they screwed up was what you did as Champion in Act 3 by making it a disjointed mess.

eh there could have been a few ways to make Act 1 and 2 better, though they were definitely great. Act 3 was definitely an abomination of an arc.

• but Act 1 could've been better if killing Kelder gained Hawke favor with the Alienage. Likewise sparing him should've actually had an effect with Vanard.
• Have Meredith converse with the Arishok since the Templars had the real power, and up until Act 2 things go well. Then he starts to refuse to talk to her because of how his charges are being treated in a city they have not threatened.
• Have Hawke rile the Darktown citizens to form a militia to fight back against the Qunari when **** hits the fan.
• Give a few quests for Hawke both prior to and after All that Remains where he actually investigates.
• obviously, Templars need to react to a mage Hawke in those 2 acts. When he's champion he has enough influence to slide on by easily. (starts thinking Slide to the left! Slide to the right! Criss-cross!)
• after you hand Bartrand the maps, you get one or two quests to allow for easy access to the Deep Roads. Clear out darkspawn stragglers and highwaymen.

Also, your first year in Kirkwall should've been playable. I would've loved to work for Athenril. I'm sure they could put in a plot about raiders teaming up with the Coterie and threatening Kirkwall and in turn Athenril's little operation

[LobselVith8]

Aesieru wrote...

I believe very firmly that a person with real competence especially if they gained the Templars respect (by coming out of that organization or being liked by it to some degree prior to becoming the Vicount) could definitely manipulate things and perhaps even put the Templars pack in the "respect the leader" position.

I firmly believe a dictatorship isn't going to relinquish control simply because someone asked them to, as Bioware's Michael Hamilton said when he explained why the Magi boon was turned down by the Chantry.

Aesieru wrote...

Not true, not true at all.

Cough cough, she married "FOR THE CHANTRY".

You need to re-evaluate her thoughts towards Wesley and her irrational change in personality and thoughts and idealogies because of that...

Irrational? It sounds like you take offense to the notion that she's atheist. Aveline makes it clear that she doesn't believe in the Chant and married Wesley because he was a good man, not because they shared the same ideas on religion.