447 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Aesieru wrote...

Not true, not true at all.

Cough cough, she married "FOR THE CHANTRY".

You need to re-evaluate her thoughts towards Wesley and her irrational change in personality and thoughts and idealogies because of that...

She married a man, not a Templar. She never says she married for the Chantry. She says she doesn't buy the whole Maker schtick the Chantry spews. She could care less about faith.

When Elthina says that it was the Maker's hand that saved Ferelden, Hawke can call BS and she supports it.


She's atheist.

[Aesieru]

No she's not, she had irrational (because of his death) changes (I hate God because he let my love die) type thoughts.

She is about as atheist as Sister Petrice.

Review her a bit more... I kept Aveline with me the entire game, she's not Atheist.

The fact she points out that Ferelden was saved not by the Makers hand but supports the Wardens and the Hero of Ferelden is not "heretical" as much as true.

Now in truth this is all inspired by the God of all Gods depending on his level of intervention.

Modifié par Aesieru, 01 juin 2011 - 02:42 .

[Morroian]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

• but Act 1 could've been better if killing Kelder gained Hawke favor with the Alienage. Likewise sparing him should've actually had an effect with Vanard.
• Have Meredith converse with the Arishok since the Templars had the real power, and up until Act 2 things go well. Then he starts to refuse to talk to her because of how his charges are being treated in a city they have not threatened.
• Have Hawke rile the Darktown citizens to form a militia to fight back against the Qunari when **** hits the fan.
• Give a few quests for Hawke both prior to and after All that Remains where he actually investigates.
• obviously, Templars need to react to a mage Hawke in those 2 acts. When he's champion he has enough influence to slide on by easily. (starts thinking Slide to the left! Slide to the right! Criss-cross!).

           
           
Most of your list I agree with but with the last one all they needed to do was make it clearer that Varric was paying off the templars. I believe he was doing that but it wasn't made nearly clear enough.

[Aesieru]

Start a riot of peasants and nobles against a Q'unari invasion force?

Yeah.... yeah...

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I believe very firmly that a person with real competence especially if they gained the Templars respect (by coming out of that organization or being liked by it to some degree prior to becoming the Vicount) could definitely manipulate things and perhaps even put the Templars pack in the "respect the leader" position.

I firmly believe a dictatorship isn't going to relinquish control simply because someone asked them to, as Bioware's Michael Hamilton said when he explained why the Magi boon was turned down by the Chantry.

Aesieru wrote...

Not true, not true at all.

Cough cough, she married "FOR THE CHANTRY".

You need to re-evaluate her thoughts towards Wesley and her irrational change in personality and thoughts and idealogies because of that...

Irrational? It sounds like you take offense to the notion that she's atheist. Aveline makes it clear that she doesn't believe in the Chant and married Wesley because he was a good man, not because they shared the same ideas on religion.

Not believing in the Chant doesn't make one an athiest. Also, the wiki claims that Aveline is an agnostic.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote..
how? There are atheists in every society. Just because a religion exists doesn't mean everyone will believe in it.

There are. But not for the origins we have. Gaidner said that for the mage, it makes sense to have an F the maker response, but not a no maker response.

Zeevico wrote...
Inconsistent with the setting?
Morrigan's
viewpoint seems to be a sensible kind of atheism to me.

Morrigain was raised very peripheral to the society.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That must explain Morrigan, who clearly says she doesn't believe in the Maker when speaking to Leliana...

Who, as I said, was raised by Flemeth, not either in a Chantry propaganda factory, or in a religious noble family, or about to get married in a religious institution, or raised by the Dalish to believe in a different set of gods. The dwarves are certainly not atheists (though it's really pantheism).

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

Not believing in the Chant doesn't make one an athiest. Also, the wiki claims that Aveline is an agnostic.

The fan DA Wiki originally claimed Aveline was an atheist and listed incorrect information for months about the Magi boon, the Dalish boon, and Abominations.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
That must explain Morrigan, who clearly says she doesn't believe in the Maker when speaking to Leliana...

Who, as I said, was raised by Flemeth, not either in a Chantry propaganda factory, or in a religious noble family, or about to get married in a religious institution, or raised by the Dalish to believe in a different set of gods. The dwarves are certainly not atheists (though it's really pantheism). 

The feelings are more toward Gaider saying something so asinine. People don't need to be raised as atheists, they could simply not believe in a deity or the religious teachings they were raised with.

[TEWR]

Aesieru wrote...

Start a riot of peasants and nobles against a Q'unari invasion force?

Yeah.... yeah...

What would you have them do, give up without a fight? And for the record, the Qunari weren't originally an invasion force. They only turned into one because Kirkwall is the land of idiots and psychotics.

And considering peasants were armed with bows, daggers, swords, mauls, and battleaxes when they were in league with Varnell; I'm willing to bet Darktown's residents were armed too. You could've even raided an armory after you rally them together and armed them.

It would've been more believable than Hawke slaughtering everything in his path like a crazed psychopath.

But since I've seen you spouting a lot of vitriol for the game and saying there was absolutely nothing good about it, what would you have done to make Hawke's story better? Considering my idea seems to be nothing good to you judging by your "Yeah.... yeah...." response.


hell where was Athenril/Meeran (assuming the player didn't kill them) in all of that? They could've helped too.

Morroian wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

• but Act 1 could've been better if killing Kelder gained Hawke favor with the Alienage. Likewise sparing him should've actually had an effect with Vanard.
  
• Have Meredith converse with the Arishok since the Templars had the real power, and up until Act 2 things go well. Then he starts to refuse to talk to her because of how his charges are being treated in a city they have not threatened.
  
• Have Hawke rile the Darktown citizens to form a militia to fight back against the Qunari when **** hits the fan.
  
• Give a few quests for Hawke both prior to and after All that Remains where he actually investigates.
  
• obviously, Templars need to react to a mage Hawke in those 2 acts. When he's champion he has enough influence to slide on by easily. (starts thinking Slide to the left! Slide to the right! Criss-cross!).

           
           
Most of your list I agree with but with the last one all they needed to do was make it clearer that Varric was paying off the templars. I believe he was doing that but it wasn't made nearly clear enough.

I'd accept that too. Just something to explain why they don't pursue him other than sheer incompetence. I mean with Athenril/Meeran you were given safety. Afterwards plot armor all the way.

[Aesieru]

Mmm...

Hmm...

Honestly... the game just had too many issues to pinprick... it simply needs to be remade and the system revamped AGAIN... yeah...

Sigh.

---

As for fixes, I'd just make things realistic, and have the people who rate these games so poorly... actually QA these games and give some opinions...

[LobselVith8]

Aesieru wrote...

No she's not, she had irrational (because of his death) changes (I hate God because he let my love die) type thoughts.

There's no evidence she doesn't believe in the Chant because of Wesley's death.

Aesieru wrote...

She is about as atheist as Sister Petrice.

Aveline makes it clear she doesn't believe in the Chant. She even makes it clear she didn't marry Wesley because of his religious beliefs, but because he was a good man.

Aesieru wrote...

Review her a bit more... I kept Aveline with me the entire game, she's not Atheist.

The alternative perception people have brought up is being agnostic. What I've heard her say tells me that she's an atheist. People are inclined to disagree because of how they chose to interpret what she's said, but there are atheists in Thedas, given that Morrigan is an atheist, and The Warden can be an atheist as well.

Aesieru wrote...

The fact she points out that Ferelden was saved not by the Makers hand but supports the Wardens and the Hero of Ferelden is not "heretical" as much as true.

No, Hawke points this out to Grand Cleric Elthina. Aveline provides approval.

Aesieru wrote...

Now in truth this is all inspired by the God of all Gods depending on his level of intervention.

You mean a brutal regime oppressing people for centuries in the name of their respective deity?

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd accept that too. Just something to explain why they don't pursue him other than sheer incompetence. I mean with Athenril/Meeran you were given safety. Afterwards plot armor all the way.

I recall hearing somewhere that their is party banter that explains that Varric has been paying off the templars to hide Anders or Merrill. So, you can extrapolate that he was doing similar for mage Hawke, but yeah...A few lines of dialogue would have went a long way to enforce that idea.

[Zanallen]

Once again, you can not believe in the Chant without being athiest. The Chant is a religious doctrine analogous to the Bible. Just like you can not believe in the majority of Christianity while still believing that God exists, you can believe in the Maker while disavowing the Chant.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd accept that too. Just something to explain why they don't pursue him other than sheer incompetence. I mean with Athenril/Meeran you were given safety. Afterwards plot armor all the way.

I recall hearing somewhere that their is party banter that explains that Varric has been paying off the templars to hide Anders or Merrill. So, you can extrapolate that he was doing similar for mage Hawke, but yeah...A few lines of dialogue would have went a long way to enforce that idea.

while it makes sense it just would've been nice for Varric to maybe say to Hawke "Keeping you/Sunshine, Daisy, and Blondie out of trouble is really costing me a fortune...."

Then, people wouldn't have a reason to say that it's a failing. Varric just bribed one of the Templars with authority and Mage Hawke/ Bethany is safe too.

[Aesieru]

Zanallen wrote...

Once again, you can not believe in the Chant without being athiest. The Chant is a religious doctrine analogous to the Bible. Just like you can not believe in the majority of Christianity while still believing that God exists, you can believe in the Maker while disavowing the Chant.

Actually to say God exists but to disavow Christianity, is to disavow God as Christ is God who is the Triune Trinity.

So...

---

But in the other case, it is possible to disagree with a particular variation or current variation of the chant and to instead believe in the Maker.

Canticle II - Theadius.

[Zanallen]

Aesieru wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Once again, you can not believe in the Chant without being athiest. The Chant is a religious doctrine analogous to the Bible. Just like you can not believe in the majority of Christianity while still believing that God exists, you can believe in the Maker while disavowing the Chant.

Actually to say God exists but to disavow Christianity, is to disavow God as Christ is God who is the Triune Trinity.

So...

---

But in the other case, it is possible to disagree with a particular variation or current variation of the chant and to instead believe in the Maker.

Canticle II - Theadius.

But the Jewish faith disavows God as Christ but still believe in the same God. So...

But let's leave real world religions out of the discussion as that gets threads locked.

[TEWR]

So I can't disbelieve in what man wrote for Christianity because you think I'm in turn saying Christ didn't exist? Ok....


I believe God exists. I believe Christ exists/existed. I don't believe in a book that was written by mortal men. The ones written by the Apostles maybe.

I can call the Bible BS (or mostly if I felt like it) and still believe in a higher power.

edit: true enough, I don't want this thread to get locked.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 juin 2011 - 03:20 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The feelings are more toward Gaider saying something so asinine. People don't need to be raised as atheists, they could simply not believe in a deity or the religious teachings they were raised with.

To be fair, I may be misquoting him. It's been years since the DA:O forum, and his comments on atheism were at least a year prior to release.

[Aesieru]

Zanallen wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Once again, you can not believe in the Chant without being athiest. The Chant is a religious doctrine analogous to the Bible. Just like you can not believe in the majority of Christianity while still believing that God exists, you can believe in the Maker while disavowing the Chant.

Actually to say God exists but to disavow Christianity, is to disavow God as Christ is God who is the Triune Trinity.

So...

---

But in the other case, it is possible to disagree with a particular variation or current variation of the chant and to instead believe in the Maker.

Canticle II - Theadius.

But the Jewish faith disavows God as Christ but still believe in the same God. So...

But let's leave real world religions out of the discussion as that gets threads locked.

And that's heretical beyond heretical and even the Bible calls that out (not some Christian bible, but THE BIBLE).

Better off comparing Christians to Catholics... NOW THAT... ahh that.

---

Locks aside... (why are we ashamed?)

This game... needs help... and David and Heather... are just wiping it under the carpet.

Modifié par Aesieru, 01 juin 2011 - 03:25 .

[TEWR]

that's the type of idiotic horse**** that pisses me off.

"You don't believe in our religion! You're a heretic and you will burn in hell for your sins!!"


If God loves all of his children then I doubt he gives a flying f*ck about what religion his children believe in. Especially if we're made in his own image. He probably even laughs at blasphemous jokes. If we're made in his image and we have a sense of humor, then so does He. If we can laugh at ourselves, then so can God. So he finds blasphemous jokes funny.

That's how I see it anyway. Makes enough sense.

I'll believe what I want and I will not let some other religion tell me that I am wrong and I'm a heretic for my beliefs.


And I am starting to get pissed off, but only because I've got an unbelievably painful headache right now. When I get a headache this bad I start to turn into a ****. So I need to call it a night

Also, we do need to stop the religion talk now. Let's not be the reason why the thread gets locked. Just talk about Dragon Age 2 and Templars and mages and whatever.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 juin 2011 - 03:32 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The feelings are more toward Gaider saying something so asinine. People don't need to be raised as atheists, they could simply not believe in a deity or the religious teachings they were raised with.

To be fair, I may be misquoting him. It's been years since the DA:O forum, and his comments on atheism were at least a year prior to release.

If you aren't misquoting him, I don't understand why he would think atheism is a modern idea. The term atheism originates from the 16th century, but it's been a part of human history for centuries, and has appeared all over the world. It's even mentioned in Biblical texts: Psalm 14:1–3 reads: "The fool says in his heart 'There is no God.' They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good." I don't see why giving the protagonist Hawke the choice to be religious or not, as the creators did with The Warden, would have been an issue, regardless of his upbringing.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If you aren't misquoting him, I don't understand why he would think atheism is a modern idea. The term atheism originates from the 16th century, but it's been a part of human history for centuries, and has appeared all over the world. It's even mentioned in Biblical texts: Psalm 14:1–3 reads: "The fool says in his heart 'There is no God.' They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good." I don't see why giving the protagonist Hawke the choice to be religious or not, as the creators did with The Warden, would have been an issue, regardless of his upbringing.

It would have been Gaidner in either case, given that he was Lead Writer on both.

I just think I'm accurate because I'm an atheist in RL, so I was aiming for a no religion playthrough myself.

I believe that originally, we had anti-Maker lines for mage PCs only, which eventually expanded as a choice.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd accept that too. Just something to explain why they don't pursue him other than sheer incompetence. I mean with Athenril/Meeran you were given safety. Afterwards plot armor all the way. 

I recall hearing somewhere that their is party banter that explains that Varric has been paying off the templars to hide Anders or Merrill. So, you can extrapolate that he was doing similar for mage Hawke, but yeah...A few lines of dialogue would have went a long way to enforce that idea.

If that was the case... what happened with Bethany? And how can Hawke stop an Abomination Profane, a horde of Rockwraiths, and an Ancient Rockwraith, but not do anything about two templars, especially after the information he finds out in "Tranquility"?

Zanallen wrote...

Once again, you can not believe in the Chant without being athiest. The Chant is a religious doctrine analogous to the Bible. Just like you can not believe in the majority of Christianity while still believing that God exists, you can believe in the Maker while disavowing the Chant.

I understand what you mean, but Aveline never states she believes in the Maker. I suppose Lukas Kristjanson could clear this issue up for us.

[AngryFrozenWater]

What is your process for writing non-linear stories with branching plots? Do you start with a single “correct” path, and then fill in the alternate routes?

David Gaider: We can’t start with a single path—that would be obvious in the end, and in fact we have a number of writers who apply at BioWare who have difficulty with the branching concept.

It was obvious that the writers at BioWare have difficulty with the branching concept, because when it comes to non-linear stories with branching plots there was no such thing in DA2. And that is strange, because these guys are considered veterans and are well respected in their field. This concept is well understood by less successful and less experienced writers like those from CDPR.

David Gaider: You can drive the narrative to a single point (in fact, it’s difficult to do otherwise) but your story has to accommodate different styles of play much the same as a gamemaster would do in a tabletop game.

No, Mr Gaider... It is not too difficult to do it otherwise. The only reason not to do it, is because you need to add more content. And because branching story lines are mutually exclusive you would end up with a shorter game. CDPR knows that and does it anyway, because it believes it adds to re-playability and improves the game experience. They have more of that in their latest game. They inform the players in advance in the ads that new game will be shorter because of that. BioWare on the other hand promises that the players decisions determine the story plot in their ads and the first official podcast, but just don't implement it at all. Their game would be shorter just because they have added voice acting to the PC, but fail to mention that in the marketing campaign.

Driving the narrative to a single point is exactly what the main problem is with DA2's "decisions". Every decision branches back to the main story line as soon as possible. You will fight the same enemies and do the same quests no matter what. It makes your decisions worthless.

Autolycus wrote...

You mean like this AFW?

Meredith - I need you to find 3 apostates.
Hawke - No i don't... (see...choice right there)....
Meredith - You will look for them...I know about you and your friends.
Hawke - So, like I give a crap what you know...I'm not doing it!....(more choice)...
Meredith - Fine, but you will find me a better ally than an enemy.
Hawke - Oh go stick your head in the oven you silly old bat...

*leaves room.....shrugs shoulders*...wtf happened?
*Goes to find the three apostates*

Yes. Thank you (again), Autolycus.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 01 juin 2011 - 04:01 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
If you aren't misquoting him, I don't understand why he would think atheism is a modern idea. The term atheism originates from the 16th century, but it's been a part of human history for centuries, and has appeared all over the world. It's even mentioned in Biblical texts: Psalm 14:1–3 reads: "The fool says in his heart 'There is no God.' They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good." I don't see why giving the protagonist Hawke the choice to be religious or not, as the creators did with The Warden, would have been an issue, regardless of his upbringing.

It would have been Gaider in either case, given that he was Lead Writer on both.

I just think I'm accurate because I'm an atheist in RL, so I was aiming for a no religion playthrough myself.

I believe that originally, we had anti-Maker lines for mage PCs only, which eventually expanded as a choice.

If he did say that originally, it simply seems ignorant of Gaider to think that people shouldn't be atheists because of the time setting when the concept of atheism is centuries old, and a view can be traced back all across the continent. The fact that I lack the control to determine Hawke's religious views bothers me because it's ridiculous that I can't determine what my protagonist believes in, considering that this is an RPG where I'm being invited to essentially "create" my character.