AngryFrozenWater wrote...
CDPR knows that and does it anyway, because it believes it adds to re-playability and improve the game experience. They have more of that in their latest game. They inform the players in advance in the ads that new game will be shorter because of that.
Modifié par shantisands, 01 juin 2011 - 04:07 .
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
What is your process for writing non-linear stories with branching plots? Do you start with a single “correct” path, and then fill in the alternate routes?
David Gaider: We can’t start with a single path—that would be obvious in the end, and in fact we have a number of writers who apply at BioWare who have difficulty with the branching concept.
It was obvious that the writers at BioWare have difficulty with the branching concept, because when it comes to non-linear stories with branching plots there was no such thing in DA2. And that is strange, because these guys are considered veterans and are well respected in their field. This concept is well understood by less successful and less experienced writers like those from CDPR.
David Gaider: You can drive the narrative to a single point (in fact, it’s difficult to do otherwise) but your story has to accommodate different styles of play much the same as a gamemaster would do in a tabletop game.
No, Mr Gaider... It is not too difficult to do it otherwise. The only reason not to do it, is because you need to add more content. And because branching story lines are mutually exclusive you would end up with a shorter game. CDPR knows that and does it anyway, because it believes it adds to re-playability and improves the game experience. They have more of that in their latest game. They inform the players in advance in the ads that new game will be shorter because of that. BioWare on the other hand promises that the players decisions determine the story plot in their ads and the first official podcast, but just don't implement it at all. Their game would be shorter just because they have added voice acting to the PC, but fail to mention that in the marketing campaign.
Driving the narrative to a single point is exactly what the main problem is with DA2's "decisions". Every decision branches back to the main story line as soon as possible. You will fight the same enemies and do the same quests no matter what. It makes your decisions worthless.Yes. Thank you (again), Autolycus.Autolycus wrote...
You mean like this AFW?
Meredith - I need you to find 3 apostates.
Hawke - No i don't... (see...choice right there)....
Meredith - You will look for them...I know about you and your friends.
Hawke - So, like I give a crap what you know...I'm not doing it!....(more choice)...
Meredith - Fine, but you will find me a better ally than an enemy.
Hawke - Oh go stick your head in the oven you silly old bat...
*leaves room.....shrugs shoulders*...wtf happened?
*Goes to find the three apostates*
BW could learn from that honesty. Instead they promise that the decisions would determine the story plot (in the first official DA2 podcast and in the ads), but they simply didn't implement it. They were not telling the truth. This is what highly annoys me the most. I cannot trust the DA team anymore.shantisands wrote...
This is true. And you know, I highly respected that honesty.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
CDPR knows that and does it anyway, because it believes it adds to re-playability and improve the game experience. They have more of that in their latest game. They inform the players in advance in the ads that new game will be shorter because of that.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 01 juin 2011 - 04:13 .
That doesn't make any sense. Who reads slower than they actually speak? With a voiced player character, you have to read all the options, then listen to the player voice the option you chose. In a game like DA:O you just read all the options, picked one, and then the NPCs would respond to that immediately. How can it make it shorter?AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Their game would be shorter just because they have added voice acting to the PC, but fail to mention that in the marketing campaign.
Modifié par Shirosaki17, 01 juin 2011 - 04:15 .
Dave of Canada wrote...
Flemeth: Ready to be Grey Wardens, are you?
Cousland: I don't really care about the Blight or the Wardens.
Alistair: But you have tooooooo.
Cousland: I'd rather leave.
Alistair: You're no friend of mine!
*Cousland shrugs, leaves with Alistair and Morrigan to stop the Blight*
It has nothing to do with speed, but with quantity of content. A voice acted PC takes away resources that cause the game to be shorter by 50% (according to George Zoeller (DA:O's senior technical director) in that link).Shirosaki17 wrote...
That doesn't make any sense. Who reads slower than they actually speak? With a voiced player character, you have to read all the options, then listen to the player voice the option you chose. In a game like DA:O you just read all the options, picked one, and then the NPCs would respond to that immediately.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Their game would be shorter just because they have added voice acting to the PC, but fail to mention that in the marketing campaign.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
that's the type of idiotic horse**** that pisses me off.
"You don't believe in our religion! You're a heretic and you will burn in hell for your sins!!"
If God loves all of his children then I doubt he gives a flying f*ck about what religion his children believe in. Especially if we're made in his own image. He probably even laughs at blasphemous jokes. If we're made in his image and we have a sense of humor, then so does He. If we can laugh at ourselves, then so can God. So he finds blasphemous jokes funny.
That's how I see it anyway. Makes enough sense.
I'll believe what I want and I will not let some other religion tell me that I am wrong and I'm a heretic for my beliefs.
And I am starting to get pissed off, but only because I've got an unbelievably painful headache right now. When I get a headache this bad I start to turn into a ****. So I need to call it a night
Also, we do need to stop the religion talk now. Let's not be the reason why the thread gets locked. Just talk about Dragon Age 2 and Templars and mages and whatever.
Where is your example that shows the promised improvement, Dave? Besides, proving that DA:O had similar problems doesn't mean that the DA2 team was suddenly telling the truth, does it? I have seen better post from you before. But lately it seems that you are just here to troll. Why? I expect better from you. You don't do BW any service with your new attitude.Dave of Canada wrote...
Flemeth: Ready to be Grey Wardens, are you?
Cousland: I don't really care about the Blight or the Wardens.
Alistair: But you have tooooooo.
Cousland: I'd rather leave.
Alistair: You're no friend of mine!
*Cousland shrugs, leaves with Alistair and Morrigan to stop the Blight*
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Where is your example that shows the promised improvement, Dave? Besides, proving that DA:O had similar problems doesn't mean that the DA2 team was suddenly telling the truth, does it? I have seen better post from you before. But lately it seems that you are just here to troll. Why? I expect better from you. You don't do BW any service with your new attitude.Dave of Canada wrote...
Flemeth: Ready to be Grey Wardens, are you?
Cousland: I don't really care about the Blight or the Wardens.
Alistair: But you have tooooooo.
Cousland: I'd rather leave.
Alistair: You're no friend of mine!
*Cousland shrugs, leaves with Alistair and Morrigan to stop the Blight*
That's why I responded the way I did. Dave... Please help to make DA3 a better game by posting constructive feedback. What you are doing now is only fight those who want to see that DA3 will be a kick ass game.Dave of Canada wrote...
I wasn't trying to show improvement, I was trying to show that it isn't restricted to DA2
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
It has nothing to do with speed, but with quantity of content. A voice acted PC takes away resources that cause the game to be shorter by 50% (according to George Zoeller (DA:O's senior technical director) in that link).Shirosaki17 wrote...
That doesn't make any sense. Who reads slower than they actually speak? With a voiced player character, you have to read all the options, then listen to the player voice the option you chose. In a game like DA:O you just read all the options, picked one, and then the NPCs would respond to that immediately.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Their game would be shorter just because they have added voice acting to the PC, but fail to mention that in the marketing campaign.
That doesn't matter Dave. BioWare promised that in DA2 decisions would impact the story plot. Talk about that. By dreaming up an example that DA:O did the same doesn't hide the fact that the DA2 team wasn't telling the truth. The only thing you seem to do lately is trying to undermine anyone who comes up with constructive feedback. And you know it.Dave of Canada wrote...
And I'm the one trying to troll? I generally agree that the games doesn't offer enough "no" choices (sometimes it would break the entire game) but I'm just trying to show that it isn't restricted solely to DA2.
Driving the narrative to a single point is exactly what the main problem is with DA2's "decisions". Every decision branches back to the main story line as soon as possible. You will fight the same enemies and do the same quests no matter what. It makes your decisions worthless.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 juin 2011 - 04:50 .
I think that the senior technical director has enough experience to make such a statement back in those days. And I think it is likely that it has some validity now. I agree that we cannot stick an actual number to it. The fact remains that it does take away resources and the game is shorter. And yes, the short development time doesn't do any good either.Zanallen wrote...
No. He says that adding a voiced PC to Origins would have cut the game by 50%. We have no context for why though. Is that because they would have needed to have more than two voice actors, two for each race? Or is it the origins themselves that make the voiced PC too expensive? Or is it something else completely? I highly doubt that adding a voiced PC would cost enough time and money to cut a game in half contentwise.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
It has nothing to do with speed, but with quantity of content. A voice acted PC takes away resources that cause the game to be shorter by 50% (according to George Zoeller (DA:O's senior technical director) in that link).Shirosaki17 wrote...
That doesn't make any sense. Who reads slower than they actually speak? With a voiced player character, you have to read all the options, then listen to the player voice the option you chose. In a game like DA:O you just read all the options, picked one, and then the NPCs would respond to that immediately.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Their game would be shorter just because they have added voice acting to the PC, but fail to mention that in the marketing campaign.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 01 juin 2011 - 04:52 .
Some Geth wrote...
Dave of Canada wrote...
Flemeth: Ready to be Grey Wardens, are you?
Cousland: I don't really care about the Blight or the Wardens.
Alistair: But you have tooooooo.
Cousland: I'd rather leave.
Alistair: You're no friend of mine!
*Cousland shrugs, leaves with Alistair and Morrigan to stop the Blight*
Foolsfolly wrote...
Driving the narrative to a single point is exactly what the main problem is with DA2's "decisions". Every decision branches back to the main story line as soon as possible. You will fight the same enemies and do the same quests no matter what. It makes your decisions worthless.
The game I am currently addicted to is Fallout: New Vegas. All paths lead to the Second Battle of Hoover Dam but all of your choices change who wins, and who's present at that battle.
DA:O ended up at the Landsmeet and then the Darkspawn attack. Mass Effect always ends with the battle of the Citadel.
These games do actually lead to one point (many times multiple points). It's not about the story having set moments, it's about the reactivity to the player's choices. DA2 has next to no reactivity to the player's choices.
If the Kirkwall rebellion changed between choices or if choices had affects throughout the battle then it would feel better. As is it's just the same ending with a few different lines of dialogue. (Not much, those mages say you're working for the Templars regardless of where your allegiance lies.)
But it's not a fault to say that the game needs to build up to a point. Many great RPGs have and will continue to do so. The error is in the fact that DA2 does not offer choices and does not keep track of previous choices.
Perhaps with more time they would have added more changes, make the game more reactive to the player, but I don't care about that. As is DA2 is not reactive and the ending is kind of a joke for Pro-Mage Hawkes. But it's also not because they decided to build the game up to a mage rebellion.
erynnar wrote...
Of course they did it in DAO too. But you did have the illusion of choice that made differences in the lives of the people in Ferelden, even if it was only told in an epilogue. With DA2 you got the do it anyways, then CHOOSE, CHOOSE A SIDE NOW!!!! And...yeah.
The marginal impact of one person's purchase is effectively zero. Voting with one's wallet never accomplishes anything.YohkoOhno wrote...
Voting with your wallet is what will make the impact.
Zanallen wrote...
I had at least two Wardens, mage and city elf, who wanted nothing more than to tell Alistair and all of Ferelden to go f themselves and book it as far away from the Darkspawn as they could get. But I didn't have that choice. Can we get that kind of choice in DA 3?
Zanallen wrote...
I had at least two Wardens, mage and city elf, who wanted nothing more than to tell Alistair and all of Ferelden to go f themselves and book it as far away from the Darkspawn as they could get. But I didn't have that choice. Can we get that kind of choice in DA 3?
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