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Interview with David Gaider & Heather Rabatich


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#351
Sylvius the Mad

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Morroian wrote...

Not IMHO, I can honestly say that 100% of the time in DA2 the dialogue was delivered with the intent I wanted in terms of how the line was delivered (angry, snarky etc.). A lot of the time the actual dialogue didn't match up with the paraphrase very well but thats a different issue.

Did you design your character such that always wanted to be either diplimatic, sarcastic, or aggressive?  That's what would need to happen for DA2's intent system to work.

If your character wants to be matter-of-fact, or dismissive, or condescending, or absurdist, or any number of other things, DA2 simply doesn't offer that option.

That's a problem.  DA2 offers, in most cases, 3 or 4 options.  Let's assume 4.

DAO offered just as many different dialogue alternatives, but since the player could decide the tone beyond that, that left him with 4*n options in terms of how his character would behave.

Unless the player is entirely lacking in imagination, 4*n is bigger than 4.  Usually vastly bigger.

#352
FieryDove

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Zanallen wrote...

 I highly doubt that adding a voiced PC would cost enough time and money to cut a game in half contentwise.


I don't.

Until the cinematic aspect can become more streamlined it costs big bucks. (That's not even factoring player VO).


Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If your character wants to be matter-of-fact, or dismissive, or condescending, or absurdist, or any number of other things, DA2 simply doesn't offer that option.


I agree. There were a number of times in DA2 my "humor" bit me in the...you know. Needed a neutral option. Diplomatic is how I always ended up sadly.

Modifié par FieryDove, 01 juin 2011 - 05:13 .


#353
Persephone

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neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Of course they did it in DAO too. But you did have the illusion of choice that made differences in the lives of the people in Ferelden, even if it was only told in an epilogue. With DA2 you got the do it anyways, then CHOOSE, CHOOSE A SIDE NOW!!!! And...yeah.


I chose a side, and it happened. So, I chose the other side and it still happened. :(

Now I'm using the disc as a coaster.


In the meantime I'll play frisbee with my DAO disc.......:devil:;)

#354
Zanallen

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The Blight would have never covered all of Thedas. Ferelden, sure. But the Wardens in Orlais would have prevented it from progressing much further.

But yes, even if it ended with a BAD END epilogue, that would have been cool.

#355
neppakyo

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Persephone wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Of course they did it in DAO too. But you did have the illusion of choice that made differences in the lives of the people in Ferelden, even if it was only told in an epilogue. With DA2 you got the do it anyways, then CHOOSE, CHOOSE A SIDE NOW!!!! And...yeah.


I chose a side, and it happened. So, I chose the other side and it still happened. :(

Now I'm using the disc as a coaster.


In the meantime I'll play frisbee with my DAO disc.......:devil:;)


You wouldn't do that. You love both games! Since I have a terabyte or so free space, I'll just make backup ISO's incase I brave it again.

#356
Sylvius the Mad

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Zeevico wrote...

Far be it from me to be a Luddite, however. This is the direction the technology is moving, and hopefully we’ll reach a point where creating the cinematics is inexpensive enough that we can branch out as much as we did when it was primarily text we were working with.

Hopefully.

I don't see how that could ever be possible.  Cinematics eliminate ambiguity.  Simply adding more unambiguous content doesn't change that.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 01 juin 2011 - 05:13 .


#357
erynnar

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Zanallen wrote...

The Blight would have never covered all of Thedas. Ferelden, sure. But the Wardens in Orlais would have prevented it from progressing much further.

But yes, even if it ended with a BAD END epilogue, that would have been cool.


But I like my end...Broodmother Brothel? Or would you prefer bordello? :wub::lol:

#358
Persephone

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neppakyo wrote...

Persephone wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Of course they did it in DAO too. But you did have the illusion of choice that made differences in the lives of the people in Ferelden, even if it was only told in an epilogue. With DA2 you got the do it anyways, then CHOOSE, CHOOSE A SIDE NOW!!!! And...yeah.


I chose a side, and it happened. So, I chose the other side and it still happened. :(

Now I'm using the disc as a coaster.


In the meantime I'll play frisbee with my DAO disc.......:devil:;)


You wouldn't do that. You love both games! Since I have a terabyte or so free space, I'll just make backup ISO's incase I brave it again.


Watch me. :devil:

But no. I wouldn't use anything I actually paid for in such a fashion. Even though I'm sorely tempted to do so on occasion. :whistle:

#359
erynnar

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

Far be it from me to be a Luddite, however. This is the direction the technology is moving, and hopefully we’ll reach a point where creating the cinematics is inexpensive enough that we can branch out as much as we did when it was primarily text we were working with.

Hopefully.

I don't see how that could ever be possible.  Cinematics eliminate ambiguity.  Simply adding more unambiguous content doesn't change that.


This^ And as Mr. Gaider said, there is nothing, no tech that will ever beat human imagination, ever.

#360
Sylvius the Mad

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neppakyo wrote...

You wouldn't do that. You love both games! Since I have a terabyte or so free space, I'll just make backup ISO's incase I brave it again.

My DAO disc resides safely inside by computer's drive.

I have no idea where my DA2 disc is (which isn't even close to a fair comparison, as DA2 doesn't require the disc to run).

#361
Zanallen

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FieryDove wrote...

I don't.

Until the cinematic aspect can become more streamlined it costs big bucks. (That's not even factoring player VO).


But DA:O already had cinematics. So the quote was only referring to the addition of a voiced PC.

#362
neppakyo

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

You wouldn't do that. You love both games! Since I have a terabyte or so free space, I'll just make backup ISO's incase I brave it again.

My DAO disc resides safely inside by computer's drive.

I have no idea where my DA2 disc is (which isn't even close to a fair comparison, as DA2 doesn't require the disc to run).


I was sad I coudln't return DA2. So I'll get the most use out of it as a coaster.

I've been burned by EA before with Need For Speed Undercover. My key was in use (not from me) and after playing some SP, I tried to go online and couldn't. Back and forth PM's to EA support, and was polietly told I was SOL and buy another copy.

So I ended up getting a crack so I could at least play SP (after the online trying to register, SP no longer worked)

#363
Foolsfolly

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

Far be it from me to be a Luddite, however. This is the direction the technology is moving, and hopefully we’ll reach a point where creating the cinematics is inexpensive enough that we can branch out as much as we did when it was primarily text we were working with.

Hopefully.

I don't see how that could ever be possible.  Cinematics eliminate ambiguity.  Simply adding more unambiguous content doesn't change that.


Cinematics don't remove all ambiguity. Saying such around a film maker or a cinephile will start a crazy long and tedious discussion. Movies can be ambiguous, it's actually a hallmark of most thrillers. Video game cinematics can work the same way, through dialogue, acting, direction, and camera movements they can craft any mood they wish to.

One of my favorite cinematics in DA2 is the one where Hawke is staring into the fire after a certain traumatic event. The camera just slowly focuses in on Hawke staring at a fire. Nice. Simple. Emotional. Seeing that was 100% better than reading about Hawke mourning.

It is definately more expensive than just having one person type up things and have them appear in the proper places. But cinematics do not kill ambiguity. It's just like anything else, it all depends on how well they're used.

#364
tmp7704

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Dave of Canada wrote...

(Honest question) How so? I don't recall people smiling and going "You're so funny!" to aggressive Hawke or "Woah, calm down" to diplomatic Hawke. Hawke's tone remains generally consistant with the icon + paraphrase.

Well, with maybe one exception i don't remember people smiling and going "You're so funny" to sarcastic Hawke, either. What you mention is largely side-effect of Hawke's tone having no impact on people whatsoever. Though technically this does avoid getting wrong reaction out of them, it's a bit too much of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, imo.

#365
Sylvius the Mad

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Foolsfolly wrote...

Cinematics don't remove all ambiguity.

That's fair.

Cinematics remove ambiguity.  They do so by taking content that was previously implicit, like the tone of delivered lines, or to facial expressions of the actors involved, and making that explicit.

They also draw the player's attention to what the designers think is the important part of the scene, sometimes denying him the ability to observe what his character thinks is the important part of the scene (they could prevent this just by removing depth of field effects, or by making them optional)

Saying such around a film maker or a cinephile will start a crazy long and tedious discussion. Movies can be ambiguous, it's actually a hallmark of most thrillers.

That has to do with the meaning of the content on the screen.  What the content actually isn't a matter of debate at all.  Students of cinematography will write papers on the construction of single frames.  The debate lies in what those frames mean, not in what they display.  What they display is there for all to see, particularly in a frame-by-frame examination.

Video game cinematics can work the same way, through dialogue, acting, direction, and camera movements they can craft any mood they wish to.

I don't think it's the job of the game to craft the mood.  The mood should be an emergent characteristic that is created through the player's interaction with the game.

One of my favorite cinematics in DA2 is the one where Hawke is staring into the fire after a certain traumatic event. The camera just slowly focuses in on Hawke staring at a fire. Nice. Simple. Emotional. Seeing that was 100% better than reading about Hawke mourning.

I don't want to do either.  I want to be Hawke mourning - or not - as I choose.

If I think Hawke would mourn, then he will mourn, and that will be a powerful event for him.  If I think Hawke won't mourn, then he won't mourn, and the event will pass without comment.

The player needs to decide these things, not the designers.

#366
erynnar

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Foolsfolly wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

Far be it from me to be a Luddite, however. This is the direction the technology is moving, and hopefully we’ll reach a point where creating the cinematics is inexpensive enough that we can branch out as much as we did when it was primarily text we were working with.

Hopefully.

I don't see how that could ever be possible.  Cinematics eliminate ambiguity.  Simply adding more unambiguous content doesn't change that.


Cinematics don't remove all ambiguity. Saying such around a film maker or a cinephile will start a crazy long and tedious discussion. Movies can be ambiguous, it's actually a hallmark of most thrillers. Video game cinematics can work the same way, through dialogue, acting, direction, and camera movements they can craft any mood they wish to.

One of my favorite cinematics in DA2 is the one where Hawke is staring into the fire after a certain traumatic event. The camera just slowly focuses in on Hawke staring at a fire. Nice. Simple. Emotional. Seeing that was 100% better than reading about Hawke mourning.

It is definately more expensive than just having one person type up things and have them appear in the proper places. But cinematics do not kill ambiguity. It's just like anything else, it all depends on how well they're used.


Okay, that one I do have to admit, was just well done, very. It was heart wrenching and excellent.

#367
Foolsfolly

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That's fair.

Cinematics remove ambiguity. They do so by taking content that was previously implicit, like the tone of delivered lines, or to facial expressions of the actors involved, and making that explicit.


Cinematics are just the way to focus on these moments, like having a camera move around a character who's confused. The state of the camera's movement implying more to the sense of the character's confusion. The game's going to be voiced and there's going to be virtual acting. So designing the cinematics around these things only helps convey meaning. It doesn't strip away the implications of the acting and voice, it adds texture.

And this is just in cinematics, of course. I don't want interactive movies, I want to play a video game. But if the video game has cinematics then they should use those to their full affect. If it's a game that does not do cinematics then emotion, meaning, and plot must be gained through other means (more traditional RPG fair).

That has to do with the meaning of the content on the screen. What the content actually isn't a matter of debate at all. Students of cinematography will write papers on the construction of single frames. The debate lies in what those frames mean, not in what they display. What they display is there for all to see, particularly in a frame-by-frame examination.


They can also talk about what it displays and it what it means for the film. They can talk about the irony of having a character talk about something falling part (figuratively) while the frames are on something falling apart (literally). A class can talk about anything including the frames, dude.

And that was besides the point. There is ambiguity in film.

I don't think it's the job of the game to craft the mood. The mood should be an emergent characteristic that is created through the player's interaction with the game.


Completely disagree to the point of fuming anger.

Games constantly supply mood through use of lighting, level design, characters, dialogue, music, and yes cinematics. When you start Half-Life 2 you step off of a train and into a run down depressed muted world where the Combine Overwatch have been systematically killing off the human race. It is instantly oppressive and depressing. As the first level continues you find yourself on the run with no weapons as many Overwatch troopers fire on you. This is deliberately done to thrill and give the player a sense of danger.

Games set mood all the time. It's one of the things they do to allow role-playing. Playing in an empty sandbox means nothing to your character. Playing in a sandbox where there's this creepy old house, faint almost inaudible echoes in the distance, and fog obscuring possible threats...now that's interesting to roleplay living in.

But it still depends on the game. BioWare's never created a place and just let the player run free. They've always had linear games with no sandbox elements. They're all about the story and characters, which frankly is why I play their games so I'm not going to pretend that I want them to change. They do good stories and characters and I want them to continue doing that. So cinematics setting mood and informing roleplaying is completely legit.

I don't want to do either. I want to be Hawke mourning - or not - as I choose.


But how do you do that in game-play? Have a +10% chance to melee enemies in hitting Hawke because Hawke's mind is focused on mourning? You cannot mourn as gameplay. It's impossible. The closest thing you could do is wander the mansion thinking what your Hawke's thinking and eventually leaving the house to continue the story.

You can still do that here. But what does it hurt to see Hawke mourning? What does it hurt to have the love interests appear and try to comfort Hawke? It's as far as the game can go to help you set the mood of your Hawke in mourning.

The player needs to decide these things, not the designers.


I agree. I am all for players actions being the driving force in a video game. It IS the only interactive media and if you're not using that then you ought to just write a book, movie, TV show, or any other passive media for your story.

And you know what? Looking at a fire can be anything. Hawke can be staring at it because they feel empty. They could stare at it because they're bored. They could just be sitting there waiting for Gamlen to enter. They could be watching the fire and thinking how much they wish the whole city would burn.

They're staring at a fire. The emotion is up for the player to decide. It's ambiguous that way.

And with the love interest and later Aveline Hawke can be fine with what happened, can blame themselves, can be in mourning. There's options for how your Hawke feels about what happened. And the game moves on immediately after the Love Interest scene (Which vary in quality. I think I liked Merrill most and Fenris least.)

I'm all for more options for that moment. I'd like a disgusted 'kill the victim character' Mass Effect 2 like interrupt. Say that person's a disgusting abomination and it's out of its misery. Completely skip the whole sadness thing. I have some hard-ass characters like that, because I enjoy playing those types from time to time. But there are options in the game and you can add any meaning you want into staring at a fire.

#368
In Exile

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...
It has nothing to do with speed, but with quantity of content. A voice acted PC takes away resources that cause the game to be shorter by 50% (according to George Zoeller (DA:O's senior technical director) in that link).


Keep in mind that Georg was talking about a unique voice for every character combination, so 6 origins x 2 genders, e.g. 12 full voices. VO & Origins as a design aren't very compatible.

Modifié par In Exile, 01 juin 2011 - 06:51 .


#369
In Exile

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On the topic of cinematics, the issue with Hawke doing anything by the fire is irrelevant. Hawke could have been sleeping, gotten out of bed, and decided that he has an erection and is focusing really strongly on making it go away in-case Sandal walks in. Anything and everything could have happened in between.  You don't even know if it's been days or weeks.

DA2 tried to be very ambigious with scenes in terms of consistently cutting away and leaving as much about Hawke undefined as possible within the framework of cinematic design and VO, but it ended up with old RPG fans (who the ambiguity IMO was designed to cater to) nevertheless objecting to other features and never shifting their mindset.

Modifié par In Exile, 01 juin 2011 - 06:57 .


#370
Foolsfolly

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In Exile wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
It has nothing to do with speed, but with quantity of content. A voice acted PC takes away resources that cause the game to be shorter by 50% (according to George Zoeller (DA:O's senior technical director) in that link).


Keep in mind that Georg was talking about a unique voice for every character combination, so 6 origins x 2 genders, e.g. 12 full voices. VO & Origins as a design aren't very compatible.


They are if they're class specific origins instead of race specific.

It's one of those compromises I've seen kicked around here ever since Hawke was announced as human only. It's not a terrible idea.

#371
Morroian

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tmp7704 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

(Honest question) How so? I don't recall people smiling and going "You're so funny!" to aggressive Hawke or "Woah, calm down" to diplomatic Hawke. Hawke's tone remains generally consistant with the icon + paraphrase.

Well, with maybe one exception i don't remember people smiling and going "You're so funny" to sarcastic Hawke, either.

Carver took snarky Hawke to task for making fun of everything. I think Aveline does at some point as well. And all the companions respond differently in terms of friendship/rivalry depending on how you respond to them. Varric likes snarky Hawke for example.

#372
neppakyo

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Foolsfolly wrote...

They are if they're class specific origins instead of race specific.

It's one of those compromises I've seen kicked around here ever since Hawke was announced as human only. It's not a terrible idea.


Would it have been so bad to have just two VO for male/female for all races? Just add/change dialogue for when race is pertinent to certain conversations?

I could live with that.

#373
centiumcuspis

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That's a problem.  DA2 offers, in most cases, 3 or 4 options.  Let's assume 4.

DAO offered just as many different dialogue alternatives, but since the player could decide the tone beyond that, that left him with 4*n options in terms of how his character would behave.

Unless the player is entirely lacking in imagination, 4*n is bigger than 4.  Usually vastly bigger.


4 multipied by the square root of -1 is just an imaginary 4 which is not more or less just different. your math makes no sence. also no matter how one invisons thier characters tone the fact of the matter is that NPCs will always react in one of four ways when ones conversation options have 4 variations. imaginary tone in terms of cause and effect are about as useful as trying to make a number bigger or smaller by multipling it to square root of -1.

what I like math shoot me.

#374
Zanallen

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neppakyo wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

They are if they're class specific origins instead of race specific.

It's one of those compromises I've seen kicked around here ever since Hawke was announced as human only. It's not a terrible idea.


Would it have been so bad to have just two VO for male/female for all races? Just add/change dialogue for when race is pertinent to certain conversations?

I could live with that.


Depends on where the specific race options originate. A Dalish elf, a dwarf and a Ferelden human shouldn't really sound the same. However, a city elf, an Orlesian human and a surface dwarf born in Orlais could all conceivably have an Orlesian accent.

#375
Foolsfolly

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Zanallen wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

They are if they're class specific origins instead of race specific.

It's one of those compromises I've seen kicked around here ever since Hawke was announced as human only. It's not a terrible idea.


Would it have been so bad to have just two VO for male/female for all races? Just add/change dialogue for when race is pertinent to certain conversations?

I could live with that.


Depends on where the specific race options originate. A Dalish elf, a dwarf and a Ferelden human shouldn't really sound the same. However, a city elf, an Orlesian human and a surface dwarf born in Orlais could all conceivably have an Orlesian accent.


I really doubt they'll cut out the voice protagonist ever. So if they return to race origins I do see something like what you've said. A multi-cultured city were accents have bled into each other allows the same actor to play multiple races. Kirkwall is a multi-cultured city but somehow the dwarves still have their accents...elves less so.