447 réponses à ce sujet

[RangerSG]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

I feel there is a certain level of truth in what Auto said. You don't need icons to tell the intent of a sentence. If you do, then I doubt that individual is literate.

Except (and I'm not the only one) when you read a line in a completely different tone than what was intended, leaving the player confused and lost. Trying to joke? Guy is offended! Trying to be nice? Guy takes it as sarcasm and hates you! Trying to be offensive? Guy thinks it's a joke!

The voiced protagonist is flawed but I certainly prefer following the conversation to having it go completely wrong.

Did...this sort of stuff actually happen to the majority of people that played Origins?

It happens more in DA2 than it ever did in Origins. What with the paraphrases taking sentences into completely different realms than what you said. There may have been one or two times in Origin where my statement was received differently than what I meant, and usually that was understandable when you thought about it. In DA2, there's whole dialogues that are entirely unrelated to the paraphrase you present.

[tallon1982]

I remember when RPGs didn't have different difficulty levels. It was called level up your party to be able to take on the next area. Gee imagine that you have to work at something to get to the next part of the story lol

[Haexpane]

After my first hour w/ DA2 I started fast forwarding the conversations.

Yet HBO's Deadwood is one of my fav TV series of all time, and that is VERY TALK HEAVY.

The DA "story" and "Writing" is better than the writing in Call of Duty, yes. But it's still way behind quality TV/Movies like Deadwood, HBO's Rome, The Wire etc...

Even the AP states that the time and effort spent on the Cutscenes is very large. No wonder the gameplay got gimped. EAWare spent the budget on Varric looking manly instead of gameplay.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

The key in your response? On nightmare. Which is the only difficulty level that I found in DA2 that forces you to think at all in regards to combat.

So play on nightmare. Isn't that the whole point of having different difficulty levels.

For a game that's supposed to be a tactical party based CRPG, should players be forced to play on the highest difficulty to get even a remote challenge? C'mon really?

[Atakuma]

Icinix wrote...
*Raises glass*
Indeed.
But I'm sitll in denial 

Regardless, I'm still enjoying their games....when that stops...then I'll take issue.

Somehow Bioware got me to enjoy DA2 despite it's numerous shortcommings, I suspect witchcraft.

[Obadiah]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think he's trying to say the general concept of the game wasn't his idea. Either way, the idea of Hawke being an important person in Thedas is great and was sound in theory. In practice, it wasn't great because it was handled poorly.

Yup.

[Morroian]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Strangely enough the only people it seems to happen to are those that like voiced protagonist. Fancy that.

I'm sure you remember the long threads on here with Sylvius on this issue before the game was released. It happens to most everyone the difference is how the player deals with it, for some it breaks immersion like say me, for others they role play it within the game as being misinterpreted by the other character like Sylvius does.

[Dave of Canada]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Strangely enough the only people it seems to happen to are those that like voiced protagonist. Fancy that.

Ha, no. I know a few people who are indifferent to the system and have had the same happen.

[Zanallen]

Haexpane wrote...

Almost nothing about gameplay in that interview. Except when the OP mentions combos. Further evidence that Bioware is mostly interested in trying to sell "cinematic experiences".

/sigh

Why do you want the lead writer and a producer to talk about gameplay? Its like when people get mad at Epler for talking about cinematics.

Modifié par Zanallen, 31 mai 2011 - 10:38 .

[Icinix]

Atakuma wrote...

Icinix wrote...
*Raises glass*
Indeed.
But I'm sitll in denial 

Regardless, I'm still enjoying their games....when that stops...then I'll take issue.

Somehow Bioware got me to enjoy DA2 despite it's numerous shortcommings, I suspect witchcraft.

LOL! I know the feeling.  I've got lots of things that I don't like about DA2, but I really did enjoy it immensely.

It makes my brain hurt thinking about it.

[John Epler]

Haexpane wrote...

Almost nothing about gameplay in that interview. Except when the OP mentions combos. Further evidence that Bioware is mostly interested in trying to sell "cinematic experiences".

/sigh

It was an interview with the lead writer and a producer. Given that, most of the questions seemed to be about aspects that they could give particular insight into due to their specific roles on the project. I'm certain they could have asked David gameplay questions, but I don't really see the lack thereof as any sort of indication of - well, anything, really, except that they wanted writing-specific insights from the lead writer.

[Morroian]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

The key in your response? On nightmare. Which is the only difficulty level that I found in DA2 that forces you to think at all in regards to combat.

So play on nightmare. Isn't that the whole point of having different difficulty levels.

For a game that's supposed to be a tactical party based CRPG, should players be forced to play on the highest difficulty to get even a remote challenge? C'mon really?

Hard is a challenge as well. IMHO hard is more difficult than nightmare on DAO so its not like DAO was any better in this regard.

[Haexpane]

They could replace the text with SIMS-speak non-language and the game would not change one bit.

Ok, maybe a little. The Aveline side quests would be 100x less annoying if I didn't have to see what she was whining about.

[Zanallen]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

The key in your response? On nightmare. Which is the only difficulty level that I found in DA2 that forces you to think at all in regards to combat.

So play on nightmare. Isn't that the whole point of having different difficulty levels.

For a game that's supposed to be a tactical party based CRPG, should players be forced to play on the highest difficulty to get even a remote challenge? C'mon really?

And I recall plenty of people complaining that the ogre on normal was killing them left and right. Different people are challenged by different things.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The voiced protagonist is flawed but I certainly prefer following the conversation to having it go completely wrong.

I would rather have it go wrong than not go at all.

The DA2 dialogue options are so specific that I routinely am faced with no acceptable options.  None of the paraphrase-icon combinations are acceptable.

That has never before happened to me in a BioWare game.  In the ME games I could always tell which line I wanted, but then I was routinely surprised by what Shepard said.  And in DAO the Warden always said exactly what I wanted exactly the way I wanted it, and then the NPC reactions were sometimes confusing.

But of those three options, only the DAO doesn't break the PC.  ME breaks the PC because he says things the player didn't intend.  And DA2 breaks the game because the player cannot choose any of the options without violating his character's design.

In terms of controlling your character and having him act as you would like him to act, DAO is cleraly the best system of the three.  That is not to say that DAO is perfect - there is plenty of room to improve the reactivity of the PC in DAO (perhaps through the use of some sort of pausable interrupt system - In Exile and I hashed out a really quite good one in another thread) - but the failings of the DA2 and ME systems are obviously absent from DAO.

[Haexpane]

JohnEpler wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Almost nothing about gameplay in that interview. Except when the OP mentions combos. Further evidence that Bioware is mostly interested in trying to sell "cinematic experiences".

/sigh

It was an interview with the lead writer and a producer. Given that, most of the questions seemed to be about aspects that they could give particular insight into due to their specific roles on the project. I'm certain they could have asked David gameplay questions, but I don't really see the lack thereof as any sort of indication of - well, anything, really, except that they wanted writing-specific insights from the lead writer.

Absolutely fair point, I jumped the gun on my whine.   But I'm cranky about that in general. 

I think I was just expecting something else when I clicked the link.   Not Bioware's fault at all, my own fault for not managing my own expectations.

I'm a "gameplay first" guy who loves good RPG stories, but I'll play a game with great gameplay and a horrible story over one with a great story and bleh gameplay.

Demon's Souls for the PS3 for instance.  Literally zero work went into the story and dialog, but one of the best RPGs of the past 10 years.

Heavy Rain - story seems cool, but wagging a controller to drink milk not = gameplay.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

The key in your response? On nightmare. Which is the only difficulty level that I found in DA2 that forces you to think at all in regards to combat.

So play on nightmare. Isn't that the whole point of having different difficulty levels.

For a game that's supposed to be a tactical party based CRPG, should players be forced to play on the highest difficulty to get even a remote challenge? C'mon really?

Hard is a challenge as well. IMHO hard is more difficult than nightmare on DAO so its not like DAO was any better in this regard.

That wasn't the case for me, Hard in Origins was suitably challenging, mostly imo due to the encounters being better constructed. Hard in DA2 for me was still easy since you need not worry about AOE's at all. Must be subjective or one of those your milage may vary type of situations.

Hey all ya need is Bryy and that girl who doesn't post anymore and you guys will have the gang all together Morroian!

[Haexpane]

Zanallen wrote...

 

Why do you want the lead writer and a producer to talk about gameplay? Its like when people get mad at Epler for talking about cinematics.

TBPH I didn't know her role as AP.  I was thinking more of an AP who is involved in the dev, she sounded more project manager type.  Obviously an important role on software dev, but I'm just no interested in scheduling and /green/red status updates. (I have to live through that in real life )

Again, my mistake folks, I didn't know what to expect.

[John Epler]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

The key in your response? On nightmare. Which is the only difficulty level that I found in DA2 that forces you to think at all in regards to combat.

So play on nightmare. Isn't that the whole point of having different difficulty levels.

For a game that's supposed to be a tactical party based CRPG, should players be forced to play on the highest difficulty to get even a remote challenge? C'mon really?

Hard is a challenge as well. IMHO hard is more difficult than nightmare on DAO so its not like DAO was any better in this regard.

That wasn't the case for me, Hard in Origins was suitably challenging, mostly imo due to the encounters being better constructed. Hard in DA2 for me was still easy since you need not worry about AOE's at all. Must be subjective or one of those your milage may vary type of situations.

Hey all ya need is Bryy and that girl who doesn't post anymore and you guys will have the gang all together Morroian!

Yeah, let's stop this right now. I'd like to have a thread on these forums that doesn't degenerate into bickering and cheap shots. You guys are better than this.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Morroian wrote...

I'm sure you remember the long threads on here with Sylvius on this issue before the game was released. It happens to most everyone the difference is how the player deals with it, for some it breaks immersion like say me, for others they role play it within the game as being misinterpreted by the other character like Sylvius does.

That's not strictly true.  I offered the misinterpretation by the NPC as a possible explanation for such an event.  I would suggest that it could also occur as a result of the PC not knowing the NPC very well, and thus isn't able to predict his responses to stimuli.

What's important here is that the NPC reacting in a way the player didn't expect isn't an inherently bad thing.  It doesn't, on its own, break the game's internal reality.

What I want most from a dialogue system is for it not to break the game's internal reality, and all of the voiced systems we've seen from BioWare so far do exactly that.

[Morroian]

RangerSG wrote...

It happens more in DA2 than it ever did in Origins. What with the paraphrases taking sentences into completely different realms than what you said. There may have been one or two times in Origin where my statement was received differently than what I meant, and usually that was understandable when you thought about it. In DA2, there's whole dialogues that are entirely unrelated to the paraphrase you present.

Thats a different issue though. The first issue is that the intent of the player is different from the intent of the writer. Your issue is that the paraphrase doesn't match what Hawke actually said. Sure for me sometimes the paraphrase didn't match what Hawke said but the intent of the line was always what I intended even if sometimes a bit OTT like punching the rock wraith abomination.

[LobselVith8]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't get it either. If anything the list wasn't the problem. The silent protagonist was. You couldn't accurately gauge how you said what you picked, and that's where the problem really was.

The list was fine. It was the silence that caused reactions that people didn't want or expect.

Probably. Though that wasn't a problem for me.

It wasn't a problem for me, either. I don't think people had problems with the silence as much as the facial expression, which is still a problem in DA2 since the protagonist Hawke makes expressions that I don't want him to (and says things that have nothing to do with the specific lines of dialogue that I chose).

[Haexpane]

The AP did bring up how much time and effort is involved in making the cinematic stuff.

Clearly in the "old" days of BG2, you didn't have that cost.

So I guess the question is - Are more "dynamic" dialog cutscenes worth it? AKA what we gained vs. what we lost compared to DAO? I don't know the cost so I can't say for certain.

[YohkoOhno]

The problem Sylvius is that for most people, role assumption is more important than actually controlling and internalizing all of the character's motivations. You seem to be stretching the limits of the games as presented to keep your internal views of the character as more important.

But as these games become more cinematic, you are likely to lose that choice. I suspect that in the future games will be more like TW2 or Mass Effect or Alpha Protocol even Assassin's Creed--you have a character and you know that character's motivations, but you're mostly making plot or moral related choices and most of the customization comes from builds--how you develop the character stats-wise is more important than building a character from scratch. And I suspect the game designers have considered all options and understand the median psychology behind it--what the players prefer.

I have to say I enjoy the games more now than I did in the past.