447 réponses à ce sujet

[Tommy6860]

YohkoOhno wrote...

I think it will be rarer to see the silent protagonist in any games, as the medium has changed just like TV changed the role of drama to mass audiences. Some people back then lamented the loss of descriptions for the set pieces. But the world changes, and we have to adapt.

Yet, if you look at sales of SP role playing games, the VO doesn't measure up much against thier sales. I'll even use console versions as the example, since that is where most gaming sales happen.

- Consider Fable on the Xbox, it sold well over 2.5mil, just on that platform.
- Consider KOTOR, it sold nearly 2mil just on the Xbox.
- Consider Oblivion which sold well over 3mil just on the 360
- Fallout 3 which sold about 3.5mil just on the 360
- Consider Fallout Vegas which sold well over 2.5mil jsut on the 360
- Consider Morrowind, which sold near 2mil just on the Xbox, at a time when the Xbox had only been on the amrket for about 8 months.

Now consider DA2, ME and ME2 and except for ME2 in a few cases, none of these games surpassed the sales of the aforementioned games and what do these aforementioned games all have in common, a SP.

It seems very much so that the SP is till the way to go and it can be made even better since using an SP allow for more content and role-playing since that eliminates having to create talking cinematics and animations.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 31 mai 2011 - 11:33 .

[TEWR]

Genly wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Now I bet I've probably made more than a few people back away slowly with this post

Would you really make Thedas your paradise?

*backs away slowly*

lulz well maybe one day. but Pokemon would be my paradise first

[Tommy6860]

fightright2 wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

I feel there is a certain level of truth in what Auto said. You don't need icons to tell the intent of a sentence. If you do, then I doubt that individual is literate.

Except (and I'm not the only one) when you read a line in a completely different tone than what was intended, leaving the player confused and lost. Trying to joke? Guy is offended! Trying to be nice? Guy takes it as sarcasm and hates you! Trying to be offensive? Guy thinks it's a joke!

The voiced protagonist is flawed but I certainly prefer following the conversation to having it go completely wrong.

You just described they way it works with DA2 in a nutshell.

+10 to Tommy. *

*Fixed

:wizard:

[Zeevico]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

Does anybody else get the impression that Gaider is trying to make it very clear that the story of this game was not his idea?

"Impression"? He makes it plain that ML was responsible for the framed narrative structure.

I wouldn't mark ML down for it. They gave it a shot, it didn't work well. Maybe it would've worked better with more time, maybe not. The rest of the game is far more problematic. I'm happy to chalk this down to mediocre execution.

[TheRealJayDee]

ExaltedReign wrote...
Out of all my friends, all seven of them who bought DA:O, I was the only one to finish it. I have three friends who finished DA2, but didn't feel like finishing DA:O.

Out of six of my friends who bought DA:O (some because of of my explicit recommandation) everyone finished it at least once. I am to this day the only one of us who purchased and played DA2, the others didn't make it past the demo...

[erynnar]

JohnEpler wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

The AP did bring up how much time and effort is involved in making the cinematic stuff.

Clearly in the "old" days of BG2, you didn't have that cost.

So I guess the question is - Are more "dynamic" dialog cutscenes worth it? AKA what we gained vs. what we lost compared to DAO? I don't know the cost so I can't say for certain.

There are two solutions to this problem - use the 'cheaper' option (less dynamic conversations), or make the cinematic approach itself cheaper. There are certainly improvements that can be made in this area - non 'action' lines can be handled by better and more robust procedural systems, for example, to keep the developer from having to spend many resources on those while still allowing for them to look 'interesting'. We already have a procedural gesture system in the DA toolset, for example, that adds gestures to particular lines. It's one area of development, and there are certainly many, many others.

Not to start a Witcher2 vs DA2 flame war. But I think if we must continue with the voiced protagonist *sigh*, one, make them a really fully fleshed real human being. Hawke felt shallow.

And two, drop the wheel for fantasy (keep it in ME where it belongs) and give us a list with icons next to it (even if you must paraphrase). Witcher does this, and even if it doesn't say exactly what Geralt says, it comes a hell of a lot closer to what he does say so I am not sitting there going WTF? When I pick, "Hey I'm a mage!" and Hawke wimps out and says "But I have friends who are mages."

[In Exile]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

I guess this is a debate for another thread, but I'm not so sure the idea was great in theory... Is it even possible to make an immersive and interesting story that doesn't aim anywhere? If the only goal is to move up in the world, you're not fighting for a reason and have no clear objective other than starting the next side quest and following the quest marker.

They tried to make a modern RPG (in the cinematic, tight narration sense) and an old RPG (very disconnected, imagine your own content) and picked some of the worst aspects of each.

Instead of using the set pieces as anchors and imagining content in the middle, players rattled against Hawke effectively not tryingt o fix the conflcit in downtime. Instead of imagining that there was extra content between the time NCPs weren't in the party and were, players just said the NPCs did nothing.

DA2 couldn't decide the kind of game it wanted to be and the sort of experience it wanted to provide, and left so many nuggets for older fans of the genre that just never germinated.

[Tommy6860]

JohnEpler wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

The AP did bring up how much time and effort is involved in making the cinematic stuff.

Clearly in the "old" days of BG2, you didn't have that cost.

So I guess the question is - Are more "dynamic" dialog cutscenes worth it? AKA what we gained vs. what we lost compared to DAO? I don't know the cost so I can't say for certain.

There are two solutions to this problem - use the 'cheaper' option (less dynamic conversations), or make the cinematic approach itself cheaper. There are certainly improvements that can be made in this area - non 'action' lines can be handled by better and more robust procedural systems, for example, to keep the developer from having to spend many resources on those while still allowing for them to look 'interesting'. We already have a procedural gesture system in the DA toolset, for example, that adds gestures to particular lines. It's one area of development, and there are certainly many, many others.

Or how about removing the PC cinematic, but allow for the VO with directly spoken lines (no paraphrasing), that would eliminate much devlopment time, though I know that would be a little jarring hearing my PC talk, but not seeing the animations. The NPCs animations are already the worlk of the creators, so I don't role play them anyway, and they are made to react accordingly. It is just a thought, though I know more a stab in the dark.

[Zeevico]

David Gaider: I think the medium is quickly moving toward being far more cinematic than it was—which is both good and bad, I think. It’s good in that we can show as much as we tell, now. Bad because we suddenly have to show, and less can be left to the imagination … something which, in many ways, we will never be able to compete with.

Please stop trying.

Far be it from me to be a Luddite, however. This is the direction the technology is moving, and hopefully we’ll reach a point where creating the cinematics is inexpensive enough that we can branch out as much as we did when it was primarily text we were working with.

Hopefully. Until then, why not make rushed games in a time frame more or less equivalent to one where you released BG2?

[erynnar]

Tommy6860 wrote...

fightright2 wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

I feel there is a certain level of truth in what Auto said. You don't need icons to tell the intent of a sentence. If you do, then I doubt that individual is literate.

Except (and I'm not the only one) when you read a line in a completely different tone than what was intended, leaving the player confused and lost. Trying to joke? Guy is offended! Trying to be nice? Guy takes it as sarcasm and hates you! Trying to be offensive? Guy thinks it's a joke!

The voiced protagonist is flawed but I certainly prefer following the conversation to having it go completely wrong.

You just described they way it works with DA2 in a nutshell.

+10 to Tommy. *

*Fixed

:wizard:

This^ Thanks Dave, I really had that problem in DA2 too...oh...you were talking about DAO?
Yeah "I'm a mage!" I should make that my sig line.<_<

Edited because I forgot my smiley to indicate being gooffy.

Modifié par erynnar, 31 mai 2011 - 11:46 .

[YohkoOhno]

Tommy6860 wrote...
Yet, if you look at sales of SP role playing games, the VO doesn't measure up much against thier sales. I'll even use console versions as the example, since that is where most gaming sales happen.

- Consider Fable on the Xbox, it sold well over 2.5mil, just on that platform.
- Consider KOTOR, it sold nearly 2mil just on the Xbox.
- Consider Oblivion which sold well over 3mil just on the 360
- Fallout 3 which sold about 3.5mil just on the 360
- Consider Fallout Vegas which sold well over 2.5mil jsut on the 360
- Consider Morrowind, which sold near 2mil just on the Xbox, at a time when the Xbox had only been on the amrket for about 8 months.

Well first of all, there's no proof that the sales of those games are increased by silence as opposed to voiced.  Some of those games mentioned are years old, before the increase of voice acting was added.

I think we're seeing more voiced protagonists, and the games are changing for that.  It's a recent trend over the past few years with RPGs and I think the silent avatar will be less likely in the future.  So I think--with budgets being equal for AAA titles--you're going to find voice protagonists more likely than silent ones unless it's a critical part of the game.  

Eventually we'll get to the VR/Holodeck modes where we experience everything--but all of this takes time.  This is another step towards that direction.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 31 mai 2011 - 11:45 .

[Tommy6860]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
Yet, if you look at sales of SP role playing games, the VO doesn't measure up much against thier sales. I'll even use console versions as the example, since that is where most gaming sales happen.

- Consider Fable on the Xbox, it sold well over 2.5mil, just on that platform.
- Consider KOTOR, it sold nearly 2mil just on the Xbox.
- Consider Oblivion which sold well over 3mil just on the 360
- Fallout 3 which sold about 3.5mil just on the 360
- Consider Fallout Vegas which sold well over 2.5mil jsut on the 360
- Consider Morrowind, which sold near 2mil just on the Xbox, at a time when the Xbox had only been on the amrket for about 8 months.

Well first of all, there's no proof that the sales of those games are increased by silence as opposed to voiced.  Some of those games mentioned are years old, before the increase of voice acting was added.

I think we're seeing more voiced protagonists, and the games are changing for that.  It's a recent trend over the past few years with RPGs and I think the silent avatar will be less likely in the future.  So I think--with budgets being equal for AAA titles--you're going to find voice protagonists more likely than silent ones unless it's a critical part of the game.  

Eventually we'll get to the VR/Holodeck modes where we experience everything--but all of this takes time.  This is another step towards that direction.

I didn't say they are proof, rather that these are contemporary sales examples that belies youir previous post regarding how the times are changing. It seems very much that the fact that these sales out-perform those of game with a VO, is not to be taken lightly. I didn't even throw in Origins since most know that it DA2 will never come close to that game in sales, even just on the 360, of which Origins sold well over 2mil.

[Tommy6860]

Morroian wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except (and I'm not the only one) when you read a line in a completely different tone than what was intended, leaving the player confused and lost. Trying to joke? Guy is offended! Trying to be nice? Guy takes it as sarcasm and hates you! Trying to be offensive? Guy thinks it's a joke!

The voiced protagonist is flawed but I certainly prefer following the conversation to having it go completely wrong.

You just described they way it works with DA2 in a nutshell.

Not IMHO, I can honestly say that 100% of the time in DAO the dialogue was delivered with the intent I wanted in terms of how the line was delivered (angry, snarky etc.). A lot of the time the actual dialogue didn't match up with the paraphrase very well but thats a different issue.

So, you concur with my reply? (You did say 100% with Origins)

[Tommy6860]

Genly wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
You just described they way it works with DA2 in a nutshell.

I honestly haven't noticed that. Even when you consider an obviously poor (and funny hehe) example of the paraphrasing ("I'm a mage" -> "I have mage friends"), the end resultlng meaning is the same. Even if it completely destroys my sense of roleplaying , Anders will still like me, NPC should know I support mages and not his ideas, etc.

So, the paraphrasing icon wheel doesn't function as well as the literal written line responses in Origins?

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Ery: No. Your sig should be "I want to be a dragon".

I approve!

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Kate Mulgrew is so awesome.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Considering Sketch says "don't hang out with storytellers. Never know what they'll say." I bet Bioware placed that quest in there just as a last resort.

"Varric lied! Hawke actually did investigate Leandra's death! Varric just thinks Hawke is an enormous putz and wants to make him seem that way!"

So Hawke was really a proactive and intelligent character, he was simply smeared by Varric? Jealous over Merrill's affections for Hawke, perhaps?

that's the only thing that makes sense.

Wait, why was Varric away from Bianca when he was telling Cassandra the tale?! Is there even a Bianca?!

[Genly]

Tommy6860 wrote...

So, the paraphrasing icon wheel doesn't function as well as the literal written line responses in Origins?

For purely roleplaying reasons, it does not. But in the context in dave's post you were replying too, your mileage may vary, as I posted here...

Genly wrote...

We shouldn't be able to have full control on the reactions
of NPCs/companions anyway. The problem, as I see it, happens when an
unexpected companion's response was caused because he misinterpreted it,
not because of his own personality/plot/etc.

For example, let's say for DA:O style,
you have to choose a text line to say something to Anders, then you
pick one that you intend to be a joke. But instead the game "chooses"
for you a serious tone, making Anders angry and you lose friendship.
Now, let's say you say that same thing to Aveline: even if she knows
you're joking, she might react badly anyway. In both cases, their
responses were "unexpected", but in the first case, it was a flaw of the
"system",

Now
how much that happened in DA:O? Maybe once or twice with me, but I
always play the good, hero option anyway. While with the DA2 icons,
you always know at least your tone, which should impact the
NPCs/companions' view of your character.

[Dave of Canada]

Tommy6860 wrote...

You just described they way it works with DA2 in a nutshell.

(Honest question) How so? I don't recall people smiling and going "You're so funny!" to aggressive Hawke or "Woah, calm down" to diplomatic Hawke. Hawke's tone remains generally consistant with the icon + paraphrase.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 juin 2011 - 12:16 .

[TEWR]

Genly wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

So, the paraphrasing icon wheel doesn't function as well as the literal written line responses in Origins?

For purely roleplaying reasons, it does not. But in the context in dave's post you were replying too, your mileage may vary, as I posted here...

Genly wrote...

We shouldn't be able to have full control on the reactions
of NPCs/companions anyway. The problem, as I see it, happens when an
unexpected companion's response was caused because he misinterpreted it,
not because of his own personality/plot/etc.

For example, let's say for DA:O style,
you have to choose a text line to say something to Anders, then you
pick one that you intend to be a joke. But instead the game "chooses"
for you a serious tone, making Anders angry and you lose friendship.
Now, let's say you say that same thing to Aveline: even if she knows
you're joking, she might react badly anyway. In both cases, their
responses were "unexpected", but in the first case, it was a flaw of the
"system",

Now
how much that happened in DA:O? Maybe once or twice with me, but I
always play the good, hero option anyway. While with the DA2 icons,
you always know at least your tone, which should impact the
NPCs/companions' view of your character.

the tones definitely helped establish a character's preconception towards Hawke. There was one instance with Carver where you could make a joke and he goes "Sure. Make light, that's all you ever do."

Now I know that's a response that doesn't require you to always pick the sarcastic option, but.... hmmm......... how do I phrase this. Sorry my brain's not working well today, but I think people might know what I'm trying to convey.