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[Someone With Mass]

Made Nightwing wrote...

My grandfather suffered terrible wounds in hand to hand combat with Japanese forces in Borneo during WWII. He suffered constant pain for the rest of his life. Some wounds don't close.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Ashley's "wound" is a mental block, though. There's a difference. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

michaelrsa wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
My grandfather suffered terrible wounds in hand to hand combat with Japanese forces in Borneo during WWII. He suffered constant pain for the rest of his life. Some wounds don't close.

Does he not like Japanese people?

I hate it when people use old wars as reasons for hatreds.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 01 juin 2011 - 12:18 .

[Golden Owl]

Ash is very humancentric, given her spoken words about aliens and animals, though I think it may really be her many negative comments about so many subjects that whittle away at the nerves after a time, that most people are probably really responding to.

As for Wrex, speaking of negative comments, I'm just no fan of Krogan in general, so generally refrain from commenting on them.

[DoNotIngest]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
you be trolling. Quarians attempted Genocide and failed but take no responsibility. they're wrong and theyr'e sore losers, deal with it.

Oh, the irony.

Maybe we should talk about how Ashley's career somehow advanced enough during two years for her to become a Spectre, even if she has little no advanced training or special traits. 

Spectre? Ashley can't be a Spectre, I left her to die on Virmire when I found her substandard, RACIST and less physically able than the dude with the headaches and nosebleeds!

Made Nightwing wrote...

My grandfather suffered terrible wounds in hand to hand combat with Japanese forces in Borneo during WWII. He suffered constant pain for the rest of his life. Some wounds don't close.

Sounds like the Mr.Matano he was fighting suffered constant death for the rest of his life. Unreasonable grudge much?

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 01 juin 2011 - 12:29 .

[ADLegend21]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
you know exactly what I'm talking about, you're just not willing to admit it so you play the ignorant game,w e're done here
/debate

At least they have a valid reason to not get over it. Ashley's whining is just pathetic.

It's on the same level as when Shepard is talking to Wrex about how the turians almost wiped out the human race. It's the weakest argument in the galaxy.

oh so you CAN debate well in that case:
Ashley pissed over how her family was Shamed. during Tali's loyalty mission if you tell her the evidence is neccessary not shame her, she'll give this big speech about how terrible it will be if her father is shamed, removed from every ship log he served on, and is used as a mosnter in a cuationary tale for children. Ashley says "I won't let our name go down with Arnold and Quisling." so she's got a chip on her shoulders because " A Williams has to be better than the best, if only to avoid suspicion" which is why she' combative and abrasive towards Wrex, Garrus, Tali, and Liara (Liara especially since she's possibly a romantic rival) Wrex gives ashley props for being on the frontlines, as well as Garrus so they at least have a professional relationship She's also calm about the wrex situation going into it, unlike the Salarian troop which is just nasty towards Wrex for wanting to save his people and being angry that the solution to their problem is going to be destroyed.  they're even nasty after you talk him down "Who knew a Krogan could listen to reason?" you could replace Krogan with any slur and it would be a "oh no you didn't" situation. Don't evenget me started on their lines if you kill him (which Ashley has Shepards back on and can even be signaled to kill him.) So yeah Ashley's got a real reason to be pissed since Family Shame seems to transcend species.

Also the reason they "almost" wiped humanity out is because the asari stepped in and said enough is enough. If the FCW continued they'd have tried to sterilize humans or something worse than the genophage since that's what Turians do. that's the only difference, despite how derpy that line does sound.


in the case of a "tl:dr" response: Tali seems to care about family shame just like Ashley, other aliens ahve been truly racist towards different species and the asari prevented a Genophage situation from happeging to the humans.

[Siansonea]

I actually didn't mind Ashley's take on aliens. I mean, she's right about them after all. It sure seems like the Council doesn't really respect humanity much, and it took a frickin' invasion by a rogue Spectre and his cadre of geth to make humanity a Council member species. And even after that happens, they still seem to obstruct Shepard's pursuit of the Reapers, although it's probably understandable that they think the Reapers are just some wackadoo idea Shepard has. All they saw was a giant ship, which very well could have just been a huge geth ship. The fact of the matter is most alien species put their own interests first, even the asari, though they at least understand the long-term gain of "win-win" solutions. Humanity is on its own, when push comes to shove, the rest of the aliens are going to need prodding from Commander Shepard to defeat the Reapers—they're not going to just volunteer because it's the right thing to do.

The only aspect of Ashley's personality I'm not crazy about is her religious leanings. But I love how close she is with her sisters, and how dedicated she is to her family in general, as well as her steadfast adherence to duty. I'm one of the few people who think Ashley (and Kaidan) calling out Shepard on Horizon was awesome, because I wanted to call out Shepard too. I mean really Shepard? Working with Cerberus? Uh, hello, did you forget about Akuze? Edolus? Binthu? Nepheron? Not to mention Pragia. Really, working with Cerberus is so epically out-of-character it makes me wonder if Shepard has a control chip after all.

[Golden Owl]

Siansonea II wrote...

I actually didn't mind Ashley's take on aliens. I mean, she's right about them after all. It sure seems like the Council doesn't really respect humanity much, and it took a frickin' invasion by a rogue Spectre and his cadre of geth to make humanity a Council member species. And even after that happens, they still seem to obstruct Shepard's pursuit of the Reapers, although it's probably understandable that they think the Reapers are just some wackadoo idea Shepard has. All they saw was a giant ship, which very well could have just been a huge geth ship. The fact of the matter is most alien species put their own interests first, even the asari, though they at least understand the long-term gain of "win-win" solutions. Humanity is on its own, when push comes to shove, the rest of the aliens are going to need prodding from Commander Shepard to defeat the Reapers—they're not going to just volunteer because it's the right thing to do.

The only aspect of Ashley's personality I'm not crazy about is her religious leanings. But I love how close she is with her sisters, and how dedicated she is to her family in general, as well as her steadfast adherence to duty. I'm one of the few people who think Ashley (and Kaidan) calling out Shepard on Horizon was awesome, because I wanted to call out Shepard too. I mean really Shepard? Working with Cerberus? Uh, hello, did you forget about Akuze? Edolus? Binthu? Nepheron? Not to mention Pragia. Really, working with Cerberus is so epically out-of-character it makes me wonder if Shepard has a control chip after all.

Yes, it bugs me to no end that Shep can't tell Cerberus where to shove it in ME2, I was horrified when I first found out. For me, the Horizon dialog isn't really the VS, it's Shep's responses that sh*t me, he doesn't bother to explain a thing, only chastise, it's damned annoying....s/he needs the seat of his/her pants lit up for that one.

[Siansonea]

Golden Owl wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I actually didn't mind Ashley's take on aliens. I mean, she's right about them after all. It sure seems like the Council doesn't really respect humanity much, and it took a frickin' invasion by a rogue Spectre and his cadre of geth to make humanity a Council member species. And even after that happens, they still seem to obstruct Shepard's pursuit of the Reapers, although it's probably understandable that they think the Reapers are just some wackadoo idea Shepard has. All they saw was a giant ship, which very well could have just been a huge geth ship. The fact of the matter is most alien species put their own interests first, even the asari, though they at least understand the long-term gain of "win-win" solutions. Humanity is on its own, when push comes to shove, the rest of the aliens are going to need prodding from Commander Shepard to defeat the Reapers—they're not going to just volunteer because it's the right thing to do.

The only aspect of Ashley's personality I'm not crazy about is her religious leanings. But I love how close she is with her sisters, and how dedicated she is to her family in general, as well as her steadfast adherence to duty. I'm one of the few people who think Ashley (and Kaidan) calling out Shepard on Horizon was awesome, because I wanted to call out Shepard too. I mean really Shepard? Working with Cerberus? Uh, hello, did you forget about Akuze? Edolus? Binthu? Nepheron? Not to mention Pragia. Really, working with Cerberus is so epically out-of-character it makes me wonder if Shepard has a control chip after all.

Yes, it bugs me to no end that Shep can't tell Cerberus where to shove it in ME2, I was horrified when I first found out. For me, the Horizon dialog isn't really the VS, it's Shep's responses that sh*t me, he doesn't bother to explain a thing, only chastise, it's damned annoying....s/he needs the seat of his/her pants lit up for that one.

Yeah, Shepard is a total doofus in that situation. "It's been too long Ashley/Kaidan, how've you been?" I mean, for realz? Even if they aren't the LI, that's a really insensitive remark, and if they ARE the LI—just, wow.

[Golden Owl]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Odoyle wrote...

See this is exactly why Kasumi is the ultimate woman and needs to be an LI for ME3. She's the only one who isn't mental, snobby, or doesn't have a chip on her shoulder about "something". She's just Kasumi.

<3

I like how you think. :-) But most characters in ME are nice, well-balanced people. I think you were thinking of DA2 characters when you wrote that post......

Hmmm...I guess personal perception, I see the majority of squaddies in ME1 & 2 as unstable and unbalanced...the only exceptions I really see are Kaiden and Jacob....funnily enough, neither being in my top favs, Kaiden's nice enough, I like him, but his not a fav. Jacob shares the general negativity in his comments with Ash. Kasumi is balanced and upbeat, she's fun.

 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, the FCW was over thirty years ago. There's something called "moving on with your life"

The Genophage was a thousand years ago. Why hasn't Wrex moved on?

[ladyvader]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, the FCW was over thirty years ago. There's something called "moving on with your life"

The Genophage was a thousand years ago. Why hasn't Wrex moved on?

The STG dropped a updated version of the genophage in the last 40 years, I would say more like 20-30 years.  Salarians only live to be about 40ish and Mordin Solus was part of the STG team the created the new genophage. 

[PrinceLionheart]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, the FCW was over thirty years ago. There's something called "moving on with your life"

The Genophage was a thousand years ago. Why hasn't Wrex moved on?

Or the Quarians losing their war with the Geth.

Seriously at worst, you can accuse Ashley of having a limited view on the world, which is a given since until the start of the first game, the only interactions Ashley had with aliens were second-hand from history books in school and from her shamed Grandfather. Given her circumstances, Ashley is surprisingly more well-adjusted with working with foreigners than she should have been.

[Ice Cold J]

Wrex only seems racist against the Salarians. He NEVER mentions any beef with Garrus in ME1, and the Turians were the main opposition to the Krogan in the Rebellions.
I mean, most characters in ME are "racist" in some way, shape, or form, but Ash's character is so founded on it that she seems to stand out.
The only reason I really harp on it is that she's made out to be extremely racist in that "confrontation" scene between you, Ash, and Liara in ME1. Almost every line of hers has SOMETHING to do with Liara not being human.
I can understand her suspicion and anxiety about aliens, but full-blown prejudice is a little much. Ruins a great character, in my opinion.

[nickkcin11]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, the FCW was over thirty years ago. There's something called "moving on with your life"

The Genophage was a thousand years ago. Why hasn't Wrex moved on?

That isn't even that long... especially since her family was directly involved. If one of my family members was killed by a certain nationality in a war I would hold a grudge against that ethnicity forever. I'm not going to move on because that continues to effect me. Same with Ash, her family was disgraced. Imagine if everyone of your employers read your resume and said "Oh it's one of them..." and only offered you a bottom-of-the-barrel job despite the fact your more qualified than the employer for his job. That is what happens to Ash on a daily basis and I think that more than justifies her "racism" which is more of a distrust. She doesn't hate aliens but she doesn't like them. No problem there, it doens't interfere with anything. Another one of those things people blew out of proportion to make them seem like there fighting the good fight "Ashley said she isn't a fan of aliens... CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT FOR ALIENS! ASH IS THE ENEMY!" Pretty much like this one person from the B.net forums who was talking about how his girlfriend was a girl gamer and was being treated unfairly and how we should start a petition that was supposed to end chauvinism. As expected people just said that "Dude, this isn't going to get you laid." Same concept.


And why is everyone mad that she is racist anyway. Who the **** cares, she is a video game character. Do you people dislike Clint Eastwood's character in Grand Torino? Same thing. Both saved the neighborhood/galaxy regardless (whilst helping the object of their prejudice along the way many times).

Modifié par nickkcin11, 01 juin 2011 - 06:06 .

[skcih-deraj]

Ah yes the Ash is a religious zealot debate... by the way she only brings up her religion once and never says what it is. But hey thats my own two cents.

The aliens from the animals comment (an argument too weak to even bring up) Its not the word its the context in which you say it in. I took it as sarcasim seeing as Shepard and Ash have never been to the Citadel. Question though why shouldn't she be suspicious of Garrus and Wrex? It can't be becuase they are one an advanced Alliance war ship. Her suspicion of Liara (not mentioning the fact she could be a romance option) her mother is the partner of a spectre that attacked a colony and wants to aid in a galactic invasion.

Sure she should be more angry at the Alliance for black listing her family, but her suspicion on of the other races are based on good reason. Before the battle of the Citadel the council wouldn't help humanity with too much (Batarian pirates, setteling the traverse amoung other things) and even the collectors. Her comment on how a speicies' race will always be more important to them is very true. You think the turians, salarians or asari are going to be more focused on eachother when the Reapers do come?

Sure some (not as much as I've seen people claim) of her comments are made on race. But it is never racist or she would have joined Cerberus or (if you brought her along) told off that Terra Firma rep. (but lets ignore that and exagerate a few lines)

So Ash is racist, but when some one makes mention of Tali's blatent racism towards the geth its wrong? Something is wrong with that. When Legion goes to tell the geh about her fathers experiments whats the first thing she does? Held him at gun point. The Wrex/Ashley situation is differant becuase who was Wrex holding at gun point... Shepard her commanding officer. (but she was supposed to just stand there and watch right?)

Well what I'm saying is I find the arguments for against Ash rather weak. And her supposed racism and "awful" religiousness over exagetrated. While when some one takes aim at another (and more liked) characters flaws, the people with the rosey glasses come baring teeth and irationality.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's been a while since I played ME 1 but does Ashley even blame the Turians for what happened to her family? I don't remember ever getting that impression. It was the Alliance that blacklisted her and her relatives. The Turians had nothing to do with how the Systems Alliance responded to her Grandfather and his descendants. Her tone of voice suggests she blames the Turians for what they did during the First Contact War but that is only indirectly related to herself. Plus I can hardly blame her. She was kind of right about that part.

The most racially charged parts of the game don't seem to involve her at all. The argument for and against the Genophage kind of make Garrus and Wrex seem much worse than her.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

ladyvader wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, the FCW was over thirty years ago. There's something called "moving on with your life"

The Genophage was a thousand years ago. Why hasn't Wrex moved on?

The STG dropped a updated version of the genophage in the last 40 years, I would say more like 20-30 years.  Salarians only live to be about 40ish and Mordin Solus was part of the STG team the created the new genophage. 

Yeah but do the Krogan even know about that? It isn't really what weighs on the minds of Wrex or any of the Krogan we talked to. They all refer to the genophage as what stopped the Krogan Rebellions which ended something like 1200 years ago. The origional genophage is really what made the difference. The updated one was just an part of that, one that sounded like it was a secret additon at that.

[Drazlok]

Made Nightwing wrote...
My grandfather suffered terrible wounds in hand to hand combat with Japanese forces in Borneo during WWII. He suffered constant pain for the rest of his life. Some wounds don't close.

This never makes sense to me, hate those people there sure and the people actually fighting against him, but what did the rest of the Japanese people do to him? Nothing? Or hell even the ones that weren't born yet. Might as well as just hate everyone at that point.

OT: I never really thought of Ashley being that racist, maybe a little but nothing major. I just generally dislike her so I didn't talk to her alot so maybe that has something to do with it idk.

[Made Nightwing]

Drazlok wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
My grandfather suffered terrible wounds in hand to hand combat with Japanese forces in Borneo during WWII. He suffered constant pain for the rest of his life. Some wounds don't close.

This never makes sense to me, hate those people there sure and the people actually fighting against him, but what did the rest of the Japanese people do to him? Nothing? Or hell even the ones that weren't born yet. Might as well as just hate everyone at that point.

OT: I never really thought of Ashley being that racist, maybe a little but nothing major. I just generally dislike her so I didn't talk to her alot so maybe that has something to do with it idk.

Grandad didn't hate all of them, just didn't trust them. Understand, he was right in the thick of it. He saw his mates fall to bayonets and swords, saw the things the Imperial Army had done to the natives. He was only twenty two years old. It was bloody, graphic and it haunted him forever. He told me he was almost glad to be wounded, just so he wouldn't have to witness another day out there.

Grandad maintained his mistrust of Japanese until he was eighty. A Japanese family moved next door, and they'd help him and Grandma with getting around, the kids even mowed the lawn and took care of the garden. Grandad connected with the kids, but he just couldn't form a friendship with their parents. It wasn't racism or hate, just survival instinct from sixty years before.

[GuardianAngel470]

Seriously, we don't need another thread about Ashley. If you want to discuss her apparent racism with someone, revive one of the older ones or, if you're feeling generous, PM someone you disagree with.

[MegaBadExample]

Some people accuse a video game character of a lot of things.

Oh, Well. I like Ashley and will have her as a squady in ME3-- all they way through the game.
Haters don't FaZeeeeee

[jamesp81]

Collider wrote...

Part of the reason that other squad mates "get a pass" is because they don't mention aliens as much as Ashley does.

Wrex and other krogans on Tuchanka talk about them pretty much the whole time you're on the planet.

Gatatog Uvenk: Aliens don't know strength.  Everything about Grunt is a lie.
Wrex: We don't usually let aliens do business on Tuchanka.  You're an exception.

Those are just two examples.

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
But again, I'll put the question to you: how can you think Ashley is a racist, but Wrex gets a pass?  Wrex is easily the most racist person on the whole damned ME1 crew.  I still love the guy, but if he were human, he'd be right at home with Terra Firma or even an ethnic supremacist group.

Considering that his whole race was pretty neutered by aliens, I think he's earned that right.

Ashley, or any other human? Not so much.

So, Turians launch an unprovoked attack, invade a human world, kill some people, are driven out later, and then the Turians start warming up for a full scale beatdown of humanity?  And that's somehow petty?

While Shepard's line to Wrex about the FCW is pretty herp derp, it's pretty clear that if the Council hadn't reigned them in, a full military occupation of Earth following a complete bloodbath of a war would've been the result.

And you think that's petty?