124 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

Quole wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ashley brings up aliens in general more than any other squad mate.
I think being human does play into people getting on her case for it, yea. But I don't think the accusations of racism or prejudice are always unjustified.
Here are some Ashley quotes:

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."

Pretty much this. 

We're also talking about the same woman who told Tali that helping Shepard take down Saren might improve the lot of the Quarians.

She makes more non-racist comments than allegedly racist ones.  The woman is not a racist.  Never was.  Even the VA said she wasn't intended to come across that way.  Chalk it up to bad writing if you wish, but interpreting Ashley as a xenophobe is a misreading of who she is.

But again, I'll put the question to you: how can you think Ashley is a racist, but Wrex gets a pass?  Wrex is easily the most racist person on the whole damned ME1 crew.  I still love the guy, but if he were human, he'd be right at home with Terra Firma or even an ethnic supremacist group.

Soooo what you are saying is that shes racist towards some aliens but not others? How does that mean shes not racist?
Also Wrex being racist is actually justified, unlike Ashley.

I can't really accept the idea that racism is justifiable.  Now unlike some ought to, I won't foam at the mouth over Wrex's racism.  He ain't perfect, he's got his problems like everyone else.  Not gonna hate on the guy for having a few flaws.

Still, it'd be nice to see some consistency from the fanbase.  If Ash is a little racist (which she's not, btw) then Wrex is a hardcore racist.

[jamesp81]

Sylvianus wrote...

It's been over 6 months I am on this forum. And I still do not have or see a strong and intelligent commentary on why they believe that Ashley is racist.

I only see the stubbornness for a character they dislike, a denial of certain words or certain facts, and ignorance, demonstrating that they have not tested everything in the game.

I'm still waiting...

There are several things I see claimed on this forum that lack any real support.  The biggest ones are:

1. Ash is racist.
2. Samara is a hypocrite
3. Tali supports genocide

I've never seen anyone believably support any of these claims with any real hard data or facts.

[jamesp81]

ADLegend21 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Because Wrex's entire species got neutered and is dying off because of the salarians and the turians.

Ashley's complaints about the other species are really petty compared to that.

Aliens are the reason Ashleys family is blacklisted, that's not petty at all. without the black lisitng she could easily be a lieutenant or even a commander with her technical scores and how well she ld the 212. Commander Williams does have a nice ring to it.

Well, she'd have to have gone to OCS to be a commissioned officer....but it's possible her family history denied her entry to any military academy.

I'm kind of hoping in ME3 she'll be a "mustang", an enlisted person who earns a commission on the battlefield.  It might also make sense she's supposedly a spectre now, and having higher military rank is just one bit more of personal clout that might come in useful when doing Spectre work.

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
you be trolling. Quarians attempted Genocide and failed but take no responsibility. they're wrong and theyr'e sore losers, deal with it.

Oh, the irony.

Maybe we should talk about how Ashley's career somehow advanced enough during two years for her to become a Spectre, even if she has little no advanced training or special traits. 

The Spectre program is not interested in background or "special traits".  they're interested in one thing: results.  Ashley proved she was able to get them in ME1, and proved again she could get them in ME2 while working for Anderson.

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
Fortunately, thanks to Shepard, the turian fleet either got completely decimated by Sovereign, or humanity earned their respect by saving their butts.

Except...that wasn't the turian fleet. It was the Citadel fleet.

Which consisted of mostly Turian warships.  In fact, every ship we see in the Citadel fleet in ME1, except the Destiny Ascension, is a Turian warship.

[Someone With Mass]

jamesp81 wrote...
Which consisted of mostly Turian warships.  In fact, every ship we see in the Citadel fleet in ME1, except the Destiny Ascension, is a Turian warship.

It still didn't deal them the fatal blow everyone thinks it did. Because that was far from their whole fleet.

[PrinceLionheart]

Drazlok wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
My grandfather suffered terrible wounds in hand to hand combat with Japanese forces in Borneo during WWII. He suffered constant pain for the rest of his life. Some wounds don't close.

This never makes sense to me, hate those people there sure and the people actually fighting against him, but what did the rest of the Japanese people do to him? Nothing? Or hell even the ones that weren't born yet. Might as well as just hate everyone at that point.

OT: I never really thought of Ashley being that racist, maybe a little but nothing major. I just generally dislike her so I didn't talk to her alot so maybe that has something to do with it idk.

It probably does.

Contrary to popular belief, Ashley doesn't hate Aliens or feel that humans are superior. She's just a nationalist. And frankly, a lot of the "negative" things she has to say end up being accurate oddly enough, like the Council backflopping on the reapers and not giving a damn that human colonies are being attacked in ME2.

[Nerevar-as]

PrinceLionheart wrote...


Contrary to popular belief, Ashley doesn't hate Aliens or feel that humans are superior. She's just a nationalist. And frankly, a lot of the "negative" things she has to say end up being accurate oddly enough, like the Council backflopping on the reapers and not giving a damn that human colonies are being attacked in ME2.

That would have more weight if human council from renegade runs didn´t have the same attitude.

Ashley nearly lost me with the dog example. Guess she never had a pet.

[Nerevar-as]

STG investigates anyway after Horizon I think.

I wouldn´t set it to attack the bear and run away, that for certain. Most likely try to get both of us to escape (and likely get us both killed). Suicidal, but it´s not about being rational.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 01 juin 2011 - 01:40 .

[jamesp81]

ladyvader wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, the FCW was over thirty years ago. There's something called "moving on with your life"

The Genophage was a thousand years ago. Why hasn't Wrex moved on?

The STG dropped a updated version of the genophage in the last 40 years, I would say more like 20-30 years.  Salarians only live to be about 40ish and Mordin Solus was part of the STG team the created the new genophage. 

The Krogan don't know about this.  So, again, why hasn't Wrex moved on?

[jamesp81]

Ice Cold J wrote...

Wrex only seems racist against the Salarians. He NEVER mentions any beef with Garrus in ME1, and the Turians were the main opposition to the Krogan in the Rebellions.
I mean, most characters in ME are "racist" in some way, shape, or form, but Ash's character is so founded on it that she seems to stand out.
The only reason I really harp on it is that she's made out to be extremely racist in that "confrontation" scene between you, Ash, and Liara in ME1. Almost every line of hers has SOMETHING to do with Liara not being human.
I can understand her suspicion and anxiety about aliens, but full-blown prejudice is a little much. Ruins a great character, in my opinion.

Wrex seems pretty racist about everyone to me, seeing how he insinuated that any aliens besides Shepard would simply be killed if they landed at his camp on Tuchanka.

I don't see Ash as being "founded on" racism.  Yeah, she makes a comment about Liara in ME1 if you choose her over Ash.  Jacob, similarly, makes a comment about Garrus in ME2 if femshep chooses him, but no one talks about Jacob being racist.

I'm pretty convinced most people hate on Ash because she openly talks about her faith, something that seems to really get some people's goat these days.

Modifié par jamesp81, 01 juin 2011 - 01:50 .

[jamesp81]

I think a good comparison, made upthread by nickkcin11, is to Clint Eastwood's character in Gran Torino. Was he racist towards Koreans? He can come off that way early in the film from some of his comments. I would submit to you that a man who was racist against Koreans would not have helped one out getting a job, let him borrow his car, or die for him when the time came to make that decision.

Ashley Williams distrusts aliens as a whole because of her family history. But when the time came to fight side by side with an individual, like Garrus, it wasn't a problem. She might not like their governments, but she never had a problem getting along with individuals when she got to know them. This is all mixed up with her very legitimate concern, early, about letting foreign nationals have free run of prototype warship.

[jamesp81]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Odoyle wrote...

See this is exactly why Kasumi is the ultimate woman and needs to be an LI for ME3. She's the only one who isn't mental, snobby, or doesn't have a chip on her shoulder about "something". She's just Kasumi.

<3

On topic, what Wrex said was "We don't often allow aliens to do business on Tuchanka, but you're an exception."

Not do business =/= Kill.

Often =/= In principle.

He's a Krogan.  What do you think "not allow" means to him?  Wrex is just more polite in his wording because Shepard IS an exception to that rule and Wrex likes him.  The truth of the situation comes out more boldly when talking to the space port's guard captain:

"The chief told us to let you through.  You can stay until we decide you're not welcome.  You'll know when that is.  It'll be right before we kill you."

[jamesp81]

Drazlok wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
My grandfather suffered terrible wounds in hand to hand combat with Japanese forces in Borneo during WWII. He suffered constant pain for the rest of his life. Some wounds don't close.

This never makes sense to me, hate those people there sure and the people actually fighting against him, but what did the rest of the Japanese people do to him? Nothing? Or hell even the ones that weren't born yet. Might as well as just hate everyone at that point.

OT: I never really thought of Ashley being that racist, maybe a little but nothing major. I just generally dislike her so I didn't talk to her alot so maybe that has something to do with it idk.

It's because we have no emotional connection to the events.  We weren't born then.

My grandfather and great uncles, for example.  They never said much about those times.  One thing I noticed is that my grandpa refused to even consider buying a japanese manufactured car.  My uncle (dad's brother) finally asked him about that once.  He had one answer: "Bataan Death March.  I tried, son, but I'll never be able to forgive them for it."  It's hard for me to judge the man; I wasn't around when it happened, but he was.

50 years from now, when I'm old, I'll likely make some comment at some point about terrorists and Osama Bin Laden and people will think I am a dinosaur.  But I *was* around for THAT particular event.

[jamesp81]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Drazlok wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
My grandfather suffered terrible wounds in hand to hand combat with Japanese forces in Borneo during WWII. He suffered constant pain for the rest of his life. Some wounds don't close.

This never makes sense to me, hate those people there sure and the people actually fighting against him, but what did the rest of the Japanese people do to him? Nothing? Or hell even the ones that weren't born yet. Might as well as just hate everyone at that point.

OT: I never really thought of Ashley being that racist, maybe a little but nothing major. I just generally dislike her so I didn't talk to her alot so maybe that has something to do with it idk.

Grandad didn't hate all of them, just didn't trust them. Understand, he was right in the thick of it. He saw his mates fall to bayonets and swords, saw the things the Imperial Army had done to the natives. He was only twenty two years old. It was bloody, graphic and it haunted him forever. He told me he was almost glad to be wounded, just so he wouldn't have to witness another day out there.

Grandad maintained his mistrust of Japanese until he was eighty. A Japanese family moved next door, and they'd help him and Grandma with getting around, the kids even mowed the lawn and took care of the garden. Grandad connected with the kids, but he just couldn't form a friendship with their parents. It wasn't racism or hate, just survival instinct from sixty years before.

It's born a lot of the same instinct that makes soldiers dive for cover, years after their service even, whenever they hear a car backfire going down the street.  Some things just don't heal in this lifetime, I guess.

[Antivenger]

Can't really say why I see Ashley to be a racist (because I don't).

I always thought of her as referring to Liara as "an/the/that alien" to be searching for an excuse to get Shepard off her trail, assuming Shepard is chasing her at all. I mean, Ashley already called her "good-looking" after the Feros mission, and it's obvious Liara's intelligent and can hold her own against hordes of violent enemies. Referring to her species was probably the only argument she could make that would hold any merit. It does make her seem petty, but not racist.

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Which consisted of mostly Turian warships.  In fact, every ship we see in the Citadel fleet in ME1, except the Destiny Ascension, is a Turian warship.

It still didn't deal them the fatal blow everyone thinks it did. Because that was far from their whole fleet.

I agree.  The Turians didn't even have any dreadnoughts in that fleet, as best we can tell.  A lot of cruisers got destroyed in the battle, but no dreadnoughts besides the Destiny Ascension were ever mentioned.  I'm certain if dreadnoughts were present, some of them would've been lost too.

[Someone With Mass]

jamesp81 wrote...
The Krogan don't know about this.  So, again, why hasn't Wrex moved on?

Are you seriously comparing the steralization of an entire race to some war that COULD have happened but DID NOT?

Oh, and by the way. A krogan can become well over a thousand years old, so the genophage was a pretty recent event for them. 

[IndigoWolfe]

Someone With Mass wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
The Krogan don't know about this.  So, again, why hasn't Wrex moved on?

Are you seriously comparing the steralization of an entire race to some war that COULD have happened but DID NOT?

Oh, and by the way. A krogan can become well over a thousand years old, so the genophage was a pretty recent event for them. 

Not really. A thousand years is a long time even for an asari. To put it in perspective, it's like saying an event that happened when you were four years old is still a recent event when you're seventy-five.

[Antivenger]

Someone With Mass wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
The Krogan don't know about this.  So, again, why hasn't Wrex moved on?

Are you seriously comparing the steralization of an entire race to some war that COULD have happened but DID NOT?

Oh, and by the way. A krogan can become well over a thousand years old, so the genophage was a pretty recent event for them. 

I don't see why any of this is even a concern. True, what happened to the Krogans was worse than what happened to the Williams. Doesn't make Ash's drive to succeed any less justified.

[jamesp81]

Someone With Mass wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
The Krogan don't know about this.  So, again, why hasn't Wrex moved on?

Are you seriously comparing the steralization of an entire race to some war that COULD have happened but DID NOT?

Oh, and by the way. A krogan can become well over a thousand years old, so the genophage was a pretty recent event for them. 

When examining the potential threat an alien race may represent, what matters is INTENT, not actual results.

Their INTENT was to subjugate humanity and make humans a client race.  Period.  That they actually didn't because of political pressure has almost no bearing on making an assessment of them as a possible threat.

Morally, attempting to do something is the same as actually having done it.