124 réponses à ce sujet

[PrinceLionheart]

Midey wrote...

Calling Ashley or Wrex a racist is NOT funny...

Though if you were to post the Tali version, you'd get flamed to death.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 01 juin 2011 - 07:07 .

[Smilietime]

In reply to the OP:

First impressions are actually very important to how people view a character. I think what happens, is that most people heard her complaining about aliens once or twice, and then DIDN't WANT TO TALK TO HER ANYMORE because of it. That, and this is the internet! Everything people say on the internet must be true, just like on TV!


For those people: If you constantly tell her that aliens aren't bad (paragon'ish conversations options), she'll ease up on them, and explain why she's felt that way (at least if you're romancing her.) Also, would you trust a Mercenary, or someone from a race that was planning on (trying to) subjugate you're species, to be near sensitive equipment?

[100k]

Wrex is a Krogan. His people are fairly one minded. On top of that, he's worked with aliens before and doesn't hate them for what they are, but who they are. Characters he perceives as weak, annoying, or in the way, he wants to kill. Characters who are strong, uncompromising, and dangerous he perceives as worthy.

In fact, I seem to remember him complimenting Ashley for her combat abilities.

[Xeranx]

Ha, nevermind Wrex. Let's talk about Pressly.

Navigator Pressly: "Don't like Turians in general. Runs in my family."

If there ever was a racist statement in the game this was it. It boggles my mind how many people who accuse Ashley of racism turn a deaf ear to that clearly bigoted line from Pressly.

[Ice Cold J]

jamesp81 wrote...

Wrex seems pretty racist about everyone to me, seeing how he insinuated that any aliens besides Shepard would simply be killed if they landed at his camp on Tuchanka.

I don't see Ash as being "founded on" racism.  Yeah, she makes a comment about Liara in ME1 if you choose her over Ash.  Jacob, similarly, makes a comment about Garrus in ME2 if femshep chooses him, but no one talks about Jacob being racist.

I'm pretty convinced most people hate on Ash because she openly talks about her faith, something that seems to really get some people's goat these days.

I don't remember that line in meeting Wrex. Maybe I'm mistaken.
But, he talks about the Turians as former enemies... not as an inferior species. He does, however, talk of all Salarians as cowards, so maybe I'll give you that.

Ash sarcastically talks about all Turians looking alike (not in so many words) on Eden Prime when you ask about Nihilus.
She talks about not trusting Wrex and Garrus on The Normandy.
She talks about The Council (all aliens at this point) looking for an opportunity to use humanity as an "attack dog" of sorts.
It wasn't JUST the line about species in the "Choice" scene. I feel like EVERY line she said had a hint of racism in it.
Don't get me wrong: I LOVE Ash as a character. It's just that the ONLY reason I don't like her entirely is the racism aspect.

In fact, I appreciate Ash being a religious character. I am fairly religious myself, so it was cool to see a character representing a faithful follower of religion in a videogame.

[Made Nightwing]

YOU HUMANS ARE ALL RACIST!

[Made Nightwing]

I just realised something. Bioware must have tossed that line in there as a reference to all the pro-humanism in the first game.

[nickkcin11]

Nerevar-as wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...


Contrary to popular belief, Ashley doesn't hate Aliens or feel that humans are superior. She's just a nationalist. And frankly, a lot of the "negative" things she has to say end up being accurate oddly enough, like the Council backflopping on the reapers and not giving a damn that human colonies are being attacked in ME2.

That would have more weight if human council from renegade runs didn´t have the same attitude.

Ashley nearly lost me with the dog example. Guess she never had a pet.

I have a pet and I say that as much as I love my dog like a brother I would personally kill him to save a random human because that random human is human. That is a lot of humans in one sentence. If you say otherwise I would say your a crazy cat lady. Guess you never learned the importance of empathy for human life.  Can't stand these terrible arguments. I feel like I did at the beginning of ME1 where Shepard sounds like a complete ****** (for the second and all following playthroughs) for stating obvious ****. "Hey Wrex they tried to do the same thing to us  Let's become friends and beat the **** out of Garrus!" And then they try to use dreams as evidence. That is probably better evidence than most of the "Ash is RAKIST!" arguments here.


I'll be honest that Ash says racist remarks several times during the game but whether she actually believes those sayings is pretty clear. She doesn't. Most of her remarks (towards Liara mainly) are because she is jealous. They are cruel yes and racist in nature but does Ash go to bed thinking "Thata Liara T'soni, she'll bee theee deat'alla us. Damn Asari always seducin the men." No she doesn't. And the comment about not being able to tell if Nihlus is a SPECTRE isn't racist at all. AT ALL. How the hell are you supposed to tell a Spectre from just a normal merc?

I want to know why people think that Ash fans are all hillbilly racists... the stupidity.

Modifié par nickkcin11, 02 juin 2011 - 05:51 .

[CroGamer002]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, the FCW was over thirty years ago. There's something called "moving on with your life"

My grandfather suffered terrible wounds in hand to hand combat with Japanese forces in Borneo during WWII. He suffered constant pain for the rest of his life. Some wounds don't close.

My father was fighting Serbs while defending our hometown in 1990s along side with his older brother who was killed during war.

He has no problem with Serbs and thinks hate against them is ridiculous, even though they killed his brother.



Also Ashley is not blaming Turians for that only those Alliance officers that deny her father and her to have promotions and/or better assignments because of her grandfather. So this comparison is poor.

[CroGamer002]

Midey wrote...

Calling Ashley or Wrex a racist is NOT funny...
*snip*

I don't find it funny.

[Weiser_Cain]

Midey wrote...

Calling Ashley or Wrex a racist is NOT funny...

Who said anything about ignore list?

[ladyvader]

jamesp81 wrote...

ladyvader wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, the FCW was over thirty years ago. There's something called "moving on with your life"

The Genophage was a thousand years ago. Why hasn't Wrex moved on?

The STG dropped a updated version of the genophage in the last 40 years, I would say more like 20-30 years.  Salarians only live to be about 40ish and Mordin Solus was part of the STG team the created the new genophage. 

The Krogan don't know about this.  So, again, why hasn't Wrex moved on?

Maybe because the korgan are dying out and can't reproduce in the numbers as other species.  If this was to happen to another species, I doubt they would be letting it go either.

[ladyvader]

Xeranx wrote...

Ha, nevermind Wrex. Let's talk about Pressly.

Navigator Pressly: "Don't like Turians in general. Runs in my family."

If there ever was a racist statement in the game this was it. It boggles my mind how many people who accuse Ashley of racism turn a deaf ear to that clearly bigoted line from Pressly.

If you read the entries on his data pad at the Normandy crash site, Pressly, starts to respect the non-humans aboard the Normandy. 

People fear what they don't know.  Humans and aliens alike. Once they know or understand they tend to fear it less and have less issues with it.

[KendallX23]

Pressly was racist in ME1 but by ME2 he seems to have a lot of respect for the non humans on the ship...don't know if it goes to races as a whole but he does like Tali,Garrus,Liara and Wrex....his comment on the Normandy wreckage is pretty obvious...it makes his death kinda sad too

[Xeranx]

ladyvader wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Ha, nevermind Wrex. Let's talk about Pressly.

Navigator Pressly: "Don't like Turians in general. Runs in my family."

If there ever was a racist statement in the game this was it. It boggles my mind how many people who accuse Ashley of racism turn a deaf ear to that clearly bigoted line from Pressly.

If you read the entries on his data pad at the Normandy crash site, Pressly, starts to respect the non-humans aboard the Normandy. 

People fear what they don't know.  Humans and aliens alike. Once they know or understand they tend to fear it less and have less issues with it.

That's in ME2.  People were calling Ashley a racist since the first game, but completely glossed over Pressly's comment.  At the same time I think people liked him.  I'm questioning why that was.  

Pressly's statement is a clear-cut racist statement.  To talk about something that happens in ME2 and give him a pass is sweeping stuff under the rug.  People wouldn't accept the writer's point of view (L'Etoile who wrote Ashley) when he said she wasn't racist.  They didn't care.  He said that it was supposed to be triggered by the keeper in front of the Council Tower, but it was mis-coded in the game.  I've run a check through the game and the only time she ever says the line about not knowing the difference between the animals or the aliens is when a keeper is around.  No one decided to check that and no one wanted to take the writer's word for it because they knew better.  Yet Ashley is the racist and Pressly isn't?  That doesn't make sense.

[jamesp81]

Antivenger wrote...

Can't really say why I see Ashley to be a racist (because I don't).

I always thought of her as referring to Liara as "an/the/that alien" to be searching for an excuse to get Shepard off her trail, assuming Shepard is chasing her at all. I mean, Ashley already called her "good-looking" after the Feros mission, and it's obvious Liara's intelligent and can hold her own against hordes of violent enemies. Referring to her species was probably the only argument she could make that would hold any merit. It does make her seem petty, but not racist.

If you want to talk about a real flaw Ash has, it's that she can be both posessive and more than a bit aggressive in some cases.  I don't see her as racist; I see her as saying that comment because she disliked that Liara was pursuing the same thing she was, and was striking out at who she viewed to be her competition.

[jamesp81]

100k wrote...

Wrex is a Krogan. His people are fairly one minded. On top of that, he's worked with aliens before and doesn't hate them for what they are, but who they are. Characters he perceives as weak, annoying, or in the way, he wants to kill. Characters who are strong, uncompromising, and dangerous he perceives as worthy.

In fact, I seem to remember him complimenting Ashley for her combat abilities.

A good point.  Wrex's attitude might be racist by human standards, but one reason I like him is that what's good about him is so much greater than what is bad about him.  He might harbor some general prejudice, but he accepts all comers who prove themselves worthy, regardless.

Modifié par jamesp81, 02 juin 2011 - 04:44 .

[jamesp81]

Ice Cold J wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Wrex seems pretty racist about everyone to me, seeing how he insinuated that any aliens besides Shepard would simply be killed if they landed at his camp on Tuchanka.

I don't see Ash as being "founded on" racism.  Yeah, she makes a comment about Liara in ME1 if you choose her over Ash.  Jacob, similarly, makes a comment about Garrus in ME2 if femshep chooses him, but no one talks about Jacob being racist.

I'm pretty convinced most people hate on Ash because she openly talks about her faith, something that seems to really get some people's goat these days.

I don't remember that line in meeting Wrex. Maybe I'm mistaken.
But, he talks about the Turians as former enemies... not as an inferior species. He does, however, talk of all Salarians as cowards, so maybe I'll give you that.

Ash sarcastically talks about all Turians looking alike (not in so many words) on Eden Prime when you ask about Nihilus.
She talks about not trusting Wrex and Garrus on The Normandy.
She talks about The Council (all aliens at this point) looking for an opportunity to use humanity as an "attack dog" of sorts.
It wasn't JUST the line about species in the "Choice" scene. I feel like EVERY line she said had a hint of racism in it.
Don't get me wrong: I LOVE Ash as a character. It's just that the ONLY reason I don't like her entirely is the racism aspect.

In fact, I appreciate Ash being a religious character. I am fairly religious myself, so it was cool to see a character representing a faithful follower of religion in a videogame.

Sarcastically talking about Turians looking alike might be a little prejudiced.  I ain't getting worked over that, though, it's so minor.

Not trusting Wrex or Garrus five minutes after they show up is reasonable.  In fact, she'd be NOT doing her duty if she didn't mention that there were foreign nationals on a prototype warship and that that could be a problem.  In fact, in almost all cases, IT WOULD be a problem but I guess Shepard is good at picking the right folks:)

The Council, in fact, did use humanity as an attack dog against the Batarians.  That ain't even theory, they actually did do that.

Ashley stating that having Tali along would help the Quarians image was profoundly not racist.

Her friendly and respectful elevator conversations with Garrus were profoundly not racist.

Modifié par jamesp81, 02 juin 2011 - 04:42 .

[Ice Cold J]

jamesp81 wrote...

Sarcastically talking about Turians looking alike might be a little prejudiced.  I ain't getting worked over that, though, it's so minor.

Not trusting Wrex or Garrus five minutes after they show up is reasonable.  In fact, she'd be NOT doing her duty if she didn't mention that there were foreign nationals on a prototype warship and that that could be a problem.  In fact, in almost all cases, IT WOULD be a problem but I guess Shepard is good at picking the right folks:)

The Council, in fact, did use humanity as an attack dog against the Batarians.  That ain't even theory, they actually did do that.

Ashley stating that having Tali along would help the Quarians image was profoundly not racist.

Her friendly and respectful elevator conversations with Garrus were profoundly not racist.

Because she's a dynamic character.

By the end of the game, she has, like Pressley, become much less xenophobic, as is seen in her convos with Garrus and Wrex. MAYBE it's also hinted at in ME2 where she says, "she's no fan of aliens, but still wouldn't side with Cerebus." If she was decidedly racist, she would side with a human-first group immediately. Like how she jaws with the Terra-Firma guy when the Normandy gets grounded.

My point is, it was a major character trait for her. It still is to a degree. I just can't get over the venom with which she spoke during that scene with Liara. THAT, to me, is where her prejudice shined through. Perhaps it has gone away or at least lessened, but the fact that it WAS there when it mattered is so frustrating to me.

[jamesp81]

Ice Cold J wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Sarcastically talking about Turians looking alike might be a little prejudiced.  I ain't getting worked over that, though, it's so minor.

Not trusting Wrex or Garrus five minutes after they show up is reasonable.  In fact, she'd be NOT doing her duty if she didn't mention that there were foreign nationals on a prototype warship and that that could be a problem.  In fact, in almost all cases, IT WOULD be a problem but I guess Shepard is good at picking the right folks:)

The Council, in fact, did use humanity as an attack dog against the Batarians.  That ain't even theory, they actually did do that.

Ashley stating that having Tali along would help the Quarians image was profoundly not racist.

Her friendly and respectful elevator conversations with Garrus were profoundly not racist.

Because she's a dynamic character.

By the end of the game, she has, like Pressley, become much less xenophobic, as is seen in her convos with Garrus and Wrex. MAYBE it's also hinted at in ME2 where she says, "she's no fan of aliens, but still wouldn't side with Cerebus." If she was decidedly racist, she would side with a human-first group immediately. Like how she jaws with the Terra-Firma guy when the Normandy gets grounded.

My point is, it was a major character trait for her. It still is to a degree. I just can't get over the venom with which she spoke during that scene with Liara. THAT, to me, is where her prejudice shined through. Perhaps it has gone away or at least lessened, but the fact that it WAS there when it mattered is so frustrating to me.

She's not a xenophobe.  Never was.

[Ice Cold J]

jamesp81 wrote...

She's not a xenophobe.  Never was.

[PrinceLionheart]

Ice Cold J wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

She's not a xenophobe.  Never was.

She isn't. Xenophobia is an intense or irrational fear of foreignors. When it comes down to it, a lot of her misgivings about the council are actually both justified and correct. Not to mention if you notice talking to the various NPCs in both ME1 and 2, quite a bit of them have mistrust to people from other species.

[Made Nightwing]

Mesina2 wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, the FCW was over thirty years ago. There's something called "moving on with your life"

My grandfather suffered terrible wounds in hand to hand combat with Japanese forces in Borneo during WWII. He suffered constant pain for the rest of his life. Some wounds don't close.

My father was fighting Serbs while defending our hometown in 1990s along side with his older brother who was killed during war.

He has no problem with Serbs and thinks hate against them is ridiculous, even though they killed his brother.

Also Ashley is not blaming Turians for that only those Alliance officers that deny her father and her to have promotions and/or better assignments because of her grandfather. So this comparison is poor.

Good for him.

My grandfather, however, is not your father. They are...well were, since Grandad has gone to his final rest...two different people. Grandad didn't hate the Japanese, he, Just. Didn't. Trust. Them.

Guess what Ashley's problem with aliens is? She Doesn't. Trust. Them. It's certainly not a poor comparison.

[Ice Cold J]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

She's not a xenophobe.  Never was.

She isn't. Xenophobia is an intense or irrational fear of foreignors. When it comes down to it, a lot of her misgivings about the council are actually both justified and correct. Not to mention if you notice talking to the various NPCs in both ME1 and 2, quite a bit of them have mistrust to people from other species.

Fine. She's "OVERLY suspicious."

Happy now?

And how come most other people in your party (Kaidan, Garrus, Tali, Liara) aren't as "OVERLY suspicious" as Ashley or even Wrex are?

If you were to describe the party members in the simplest terms possible, what would they be?

Kaidan: Good-two shoes biotic marine
Garrus: Lethal conspiracy theorist
Wrex: Bitter and dangerous old b@$******
Tali: Energetic mechanical expert
Liara: Biotic Prothean expert
Ash: "OVERLY suspicious" combat specialist