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Another take on class Specific Powers

Débuté par Guest_Aotearas_* , mai 31 2011 10:00

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#1
Guest_Aotearas_*
Posté 31 mai 2011 - 10:00

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We all know the pros and cons on powers. And every single one of us has at least once dreamt about making a unique class with ones own chosen powers.

Why not go consequential down that route and make powers interchangable between classes?

Before you go all "meh" on me and this topic, read forth.


What I think of is a class no longer defined by powers, but by affinities.

A soldier in ME2 was simply a soldier. But why should a soldier not be able to manipulate some techs to his use without being a fullblown infiltrator?
Likewise, why should an Engineer be a considerably weaker combatant at raw strenght than an Infiltrator, or what would stop a Vanguard being as powerful as a full blown Biotic specialist?

Talent has on more than few occasions merged the realms of specializations and I dare assume that being a Spectre requires a good amount of talent, so why don't we get a multitasking Shepard?

I am of course not fantasizing about mixing in the best of everything for an "I WIN" class. No. Specific rules would still be left intact. A pure Soldier will always be the most powerful combatant on the frontline and an Engineer always the best at freezing the battlefield (figuratively spoken of course, ... or not.).

As an example, Soldiers universally get major boni on weapon and melee damage aswell as improved or even special results with combat powers. Additionally, their class passive can offer more advantages for a pure route or open up new paths the player could utilize.

An early outline of what I am thinking:

  • Soldier: Greatest affinity for combat - Gains considerable boni to weapon and melee damage and unique effects to combat powers
    Passive can evolve into trees that open up the ability to use low-tier tech- or biotic-powers (it simply wasn't enough to get employed as Vanguard/Infiltrator, but are there nontheless for example)

  • Engineer: Greatest affinity for techs - Gains considerable boni to tech-power damage/duration and unique effects to tech-powers
    Passive can evolve into trees that open up the ability to use low-tier combat- or biotic-powers (it simply wasn't enough to get employed as Sentine/Infiltratorl, but are nontheless present again, if you chose this path)

  • Adept: Greatest affinity for biotics - Gains considerable boni to biotic-power damage/duration and unique effects to biotics
    Passive can evolve into trees that open up the ability to use low-tier combat- or tech-powers (it simply wasn't enough to get employed as Sentinel/Vanguard, but are nontheless present again, if you chose this path)

  • Vanguard: Moderate affinity towards combat and biotics - Gains some boni to biotic- and combat-power damage and enhanced effects on powers fitting the affinities
    Passive can evolve into trees that enhance the class' affinity/ies and/or open up low-tier tech-powers (He/She did more than just clean the weapons) aswell as unlock unique effects on powers within the natural affinities

  • Infiltrator: Moderate affinity towards combat and tech-powers - Gains some boni to tech- and combat-power damage and enhanced effects on powers fitting the affinities
    Passive can evolve into trees that enhance the class' affinity/ies and/or open up low-tier biotics (Fell into an Eezo pit as a child, ... duh) aswell as unlock unique effects on powers within the natural affinities



  • Sentinel: Moderate affinity for biotics and tech-powers - Gains some boni to biotic and tech-power duration and enhanced effects for powers in line with his/her affinities
    Passive can evolve into trees that enhance the class' affinity/ies and/or open up low-tier combat powers  (He/She really likes Hand-to-hand instructor) aswell as unlock unique effects on powers within the natural affinities

Passive power evolutions can both enhance the natural affinity/ies or boost up non-class natural affinities so that Shepard is able to use low tier powers of said sort. Low tier is defined as the limit of capability, as in being able to choose less evolutions (maybe even just one, depending on the power layout in ME3) and even having restricted access to powers only available with a minimum affinity requirement. Additionally, the class would of course not benefit from boni a natural user or even specialist gets, meaning a Vanguard will always be a better biotic than the soldier, as is the otherway roung the soldier always being the better, well, soldier.
I am yet uncertain whether it should be possible to unlock all abilities or not, but seeing as not only the disadvantage in affinity would dissuade the player from waisting points in halfbaked allrounders, the possibly limited amount of experience and thus leveling would make Jack-of-all-trades utterly inferiour to more moderate builds.

I emphasize that one will not be able to make a real Vanguard with a multitask Soldier, nor you could make a real Adept with a Vanguard, but nontheless such a system would enable one to create any intermediate you would like/try out and enrich the experience and replayability of the game.


As for unique effects on powers for specialists and class Passive evolution:


  • Think about Adrenaline Rush. Everyone can get that. But only the Soldier has the required enhancements and experience/training to fully utilize its effect. As an ingame result, everyone could benefit from the time diletation and get shots out savely and accurately, but only the Soldier gains additional damage boni.

  • Or like everyone could get the enhanced shields, but only an Engineer or Sentinel with full class passive tech-tree evolution could gain access to the Tech Armor.

  • Or how Adept, Sentinal AND the Vanguard could utilize the Biotic Charge, but only the Sentinel could charge in with Tech Armor on, ... or only the Adept could create a little biotic armageddon on impact, ... or only the Vanguard could wreck as much havoc with his more advanced combat prowess.

Other features that would greatly fit with this idea:

  • Level based build increase: Every so often you hit a specific level, you can add a new power to your skillset, of course limited by your affinities (abilities if unlocked) in addition to just spending points into evolutions of your powers

  • Re-interprete Bonus power: As you could possibly add in new powers (see above), the point of a mere bonus power after you've met a certain point in the story is kind of moot. Instead, one could re-interprete the bonus power as a gift for meeting certain character expectations (another type of Loyalty status for example). Given the vast number and differing alignments of those characters (and the morality system), getting more than two character's ansolute loyalty/admiration/whatever would (or better said: should!!!) be nigh impossible, again deepening the personalization of each playthrough, creating more replay value and thus enriching the whole experience of the game. Possible gifts for those achievements can be additional skillpoints to use or even free or very unique evolutions to powers otherwise not obtainable, furthermore differiating the classes from another. Though I wouldn't be angry if we'd get another one power spot in addition after completing a special, daunting task (as help for NG+ or gift for a new Insanity Difficulty Achievement).
I hope I could explain what is going through my mind and am looking forward to readig your opinions.

Thank you
Neofelis Nebulosa


P.S.: ECookies for everyone that read the whole post from the beginning to the end. Image IPB

Modifié par Neofelis Nebulosa, 31 mai 2011 - 10:17 .

#2
Saaziel
Posté 31 mai 2011 - 11:44

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Its better than what I've read so far on "None-exclusive powers" class system.

That said I think the series has moved too far to make a drastic change like the one you proposed. It would alienate players and perhaps offend some (You know how the Internets is). A more concrete set of problem is "Replay value" & " Min/Max" ; Even though you've tried to tackled this in the bottom section of your post , I'd doubt it would actually solve the issue. Moreover , I'm not quite sure i really understand the "Gifts" thing.

Most games that deal with Powers/Spells tend to offer the chance at retraining those abilities: Perhaps you didn't like the game play of this or that , or the sound is annoying , or its not as advertised. Incorporating "Gifts" should also be supported in the same manner . Otherwise it might become tedious to re-start a character every time a "Gift" doesn't live up to expectation. "Replay value " doesn't hold any value if you're forced into it. So its a lose/ lose situation: Either you give a chance to retrain "Gifts" thereby defeating the "Replay value", or you don't offer to retrain "Gifts" which impair the "Replay value" .  Which lead me to my next point.

If you decouple the powers from a selected array of possibilities, you'll need to redouble your efforts on balancing each in their own rights. Not only regarding Shepard , but the Squaddies as well. You end up encroaching on squad-mates territories; Why bother with any of them when you're a squad's worth of powers? Or on the other hand wouldn't it delegitimize some Squad mate in favour of others. In a matters of weeks you'll have a Min/Max Sheppard that would trivialize content like no tomorrow. You cannot win against one hundred thousand minds hell-bent on beating your game.

{edit} To put it an other way;

You'd need to balance powers carefully between general and specific usefulness. For example , if Adrenaline Rush is too useful by it self , then it might become over-powered if used by a soldier. Similarly , if the benefits over shadows those of singularity or charge , then why play a Biotic advantageous class? Make powers too weak or situational by themselves , and people will gravitate naturally to class specific powers once again.

And this leads me to conclude that ; Although the idea would be nice in an other circumstance , it doesn't lend itself well to Mass Effect . Not at this stage anyway.

Modifié par Saaziel, 01 juin 2011 - 05:30 .

#3
The Spamming Troll
Posté 01 juin 2011 - 12:30

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i honestly dont think passives are gong to be in the game, other then your one "class evolution." biware said they were going to be cutting behind the scenes stats and thats definately a behindthe scenes stat point. other then the infiltrators slo mo snipeing, im not sure the benefits in game are noticable.

plus biwares going to make it even more accessible to first time players and giving more options for things people really dont see in game, arent one of those things.

im suprised ME3 hasnt removed classes yet.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 01 juin 2011 - 12:30 .

#4
Guest_Aotearas_*
Posté 01 juin 2011 - 06:29

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@Saaziel:

What I meant with "gifts" is an alteration of the bonus power system. In ME2, you'd get a squadmate's loyalty power at your disposal.
Though as powers would be discentered in my version, simply adding a new power would be of little value as you've most probably already have a good lineout. Instead, after achieving a certain (ultimate) level of loyalty (which should be exclusive to other characters' loyalties imo), you'd get one squadmate-unique power evolution (limited to the squadmates own affinities (Jack giving biotic, Jacob combat or biotic and so forth).

As for squadmates, as you said, a well build Shepard could essentially substitute for squadmates, especially if also played right, he(she'd be a one man army (but actually, ain't that what we are already doing due to poor squadmate AI?).
And of course squadmates could/should not change their power layout (think AR on every combat oriented character, or Biotic Charge in the hands of the AI *shudder*). To preserve their usefulness, I thought Squadmates gain their own, unique sets of power evolutions, potentially more potent that Shepards own with effects generally designed to be more lasting or having more impact on the battle than Shepards own. A high level Jack for example could level the battlefield like any Adept. Not as versatile due to skillset lineup, but counteracting said disadvantage with more powerful effects of her biotics.


Also, as much as I'd like to see this in ME3, this idea is way too late as much as I could tell and thus more of a system for later installments in the ME universe.

#5
MELTOR13
Posté 01 juin 2011 - 03:34

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The Spamming Troll wrote...

i honestly dont think passives are gong to be in the game, other then your one "class evolution." biware said they were going to be cutting behind the scenes stats and thats definately a behindthe scenes stat point. other then the infiltrators slo mo snipeing, im not sure the benefits in game are noticable.

plus biwares going to make it even more accessible to first time players and giving more options for things people really dont see in game, arent one of those things.

im suprised ME3 hasnt removed classes yet.


I'm glad you are staying true to your name. 

#6
The Spamming Troll
Posté 01 juin 2011 - 05:22

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Im glad you dont have lupis.

#7
Guest_Aotearas_*
Posté 01 juin 2011 - 05:24

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I am glad people keep this topic clean off spam, ... no, wait.

If you comment, please do so on the topic and not to respond to some snark. You can use PMs instead.

#8
Phaedon
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 01:39

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I think that this idea is very interesting. It need a few tweaks to be perfect, but it's certainly note-worthy. I would tweet it to @truffle, if I were you.

#9
Guest_Aotearas_*
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 01:46

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Phaedon wrote...

I think that this idea is very interesting. It need a few tweaks to be perfect, but it's certainly note-worthy. I would tweet it to @truffle, if I were you.


No tweeting on my side Image IPB (see what I did there?)

Anyway, what do you think would need some tweaking?

#10
Phaedon
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 01:48

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In general, no game design idea translates perfectly to the game. I can definitely see some issues with imbalance. That is, by tweaking, I didn't mean necessarily from your side.

#11
CroGamer002
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 01:55

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Image IPB




But I don't think non-biotic classes should have access to biotic powers at all.

#12
Guest_Aotearas_*
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 02:26

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Well, I hate it too if my non-biotic class suddenly can control people's minds or flail them alive, but within the restraints of that system, they would be only a shadow of real biotic classes and only have access to low tier biotics.

What I am currently thinking about affinities looks like this:

Great affinity: +50% Bonus aswell as enhanced secundary attributes (speed/carrying capacity for soldiers and power duration for powers) High Tier powers/evolutions

Moderate affinity: +25% Bonus aswell as similarily significantly reduced enhancements of secundary attributes - Mid Tier powers/evolutions

No affinity but nontheless learned: No boni! - Low Tier powers/evolutions

Additionally, a pure class passive evolvement would further greatly increase the existing boni with decreased cooldowns and other attributes.

On behalf of biotics, power tiers could look like this (only existant and lorefriendly biotics included):

Low Tier powers - Only one evolution (haven't worked out an own evolution system) on this tier level
Throw
Pull
Barrier

Mid Tier powers - Up to three evolutions if the passive is maxed out for the affinity on this tier level
Shockwave
Charge
Slam
Warp

High Tier powers - Four evolutions on this tier level
Singularity

A non biotic class as such can only gain access to basic biotics and due to the lack of boni, those are considerably weaker than if utilized by a natural biotic. Also, the evolutions are severely limited and thus even more less potent than they'd be with further evolutions. Non-affinity classes can further more not gain affinity and thus not pass onto another tier. At best they can relish some boni, though which the natural users can get too.

A natural user though with moderate affinity can follow an "affinity-pure" passive power path and unlock high tier powers/evolutions, but will consequently miss out on the higher boni and the unique effects only the specialists get.


The lore question is handwaved (yes, guilty on that part) as that Shepard just has some skill in that area, but it never was dominant enough to have a decisive impact on training and recruitment.
Compare it with academic specializations. You may never have been really good at mathematics and instead put your focus on let's say chemistry. But nontheless, you can still learn mathematic concepts with hard schooling and utilize it when working with chemicals even though you aren't nearly as proficient as a mathematician.

Now you should get why I am at. Shepard is never been explicetely stated to be unable to perform biotics as a soldier or engineer. He just fell through the roster and the Alliance didn't waste funds on getting an at best mediocre level of biotic power. But why shouldn't Shepard train some on his own, especially now that he has access to vast experience with biotics in form of his squadmates and no funding regulations.

#13
nicethugbert
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 03:11

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I don't see the point because classes are only for Shepard, being that each NPC has it's own weapon and power combination, and Shepard can get powers and weapons outside his class.

#14
Guest_Aotearas_*
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 03:28

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nicethugbert wrote...

I don't see the point because classes are only for Shepard, being that each NPC has it's own weapon and power combination, and Shepard can get powers and weapons outside his class.


Shepard can get exactly one power. And that can be any power that he shouldn't be able to porform anyway (because even if he could do some biotics, how in hell could he suddenly control minds? Or fire warp-encased projectiles?

I am offering a way for more flexibility and strategy depht whilst at least not totally shaking the ingame lore itself.

#15
RGFrog
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 03:30

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you can't learn biotics... breaks the universe.

You are either born with the abillity or not and that requires exposure to eezo pre-birth, or being an asari.

That the game allows you to take a bonus power is just a gameplay mechanic and one that should be changed so that non-biotics have no access to biotic powers. Everyone can learn tech powers, though, as that's just pressing a button on your omni-tool.

Unless, of course, BW ret-con's the universe and decides that the Alliance or Cerberus, or some podunk in his basement figured out how to make biotics a function of your armor... I would hope they wouldn't break the universe, but i've seen writers do worse.

Modifié par RGFrog, 03 juin 2011 - 03:35 .

#16
Guest_Aotearas_*
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 03:33

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RGFrog wrote...

you can't learn biotics... breaks the universe.


He doesn't learn biotics. You haven't read what I wrote. Shepard could perfectly well being capable of biotic powers. He just had no affinity and thus was never trained in it as other qualities could be way better exploited. But if you have some biotics, you could at least learn some basic biotics with basic effect via hard training.

#17
Kronner
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 03:56

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I'd prefer classes with unique powers, with no (or at least as little as possible) overlap.
I think that the powers available to the class should define the playstyle, not +X% to this or that.

Why should Adept's Pull be any better than Vanguard's? I'd rather see Adept with more advanced biotics (e.g. Singularity, Stasis) that would not be accessible to Vanguard (or any other class) at all.

According to Christina Norman's twitter, we are getting one new power per class, so it does not sound like any major changes are coming.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 juin 2011 - 03:57 .

#18
RGFrog
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 03:58

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Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
He doesn't learn biotics. You haven't read what I wrote. Shepard could perfectly well being capable of biotic powers. He just had no affinity and thus was never trained in it as other qualities could be way better exploited. But if you have some biotics, you could at least learn some basic biotics with basic effect via hard training.


Sorry, he's either a biotic and knows it or isn't. Biotic powers were so important to human factions during shep's childhood it would be hard to explain how or why he passed under the radar. Also, AFAIK, there's never been a single mention of latent biotic powers manifesting in adults.

Non-biotics should have ZERO access to biotic powers. It's an internal mechanic and just saying that Shepard is untrained tends to go against the canon of how humans obtain biotics.

Whereas everyone can have access to engineering functions as that's just programming your omni-tool. Frankly making the omnitool more functional with greater diversity/ability/power would be a better track as there's no prerequisite other than training. And given that every biotic power has an analogue on the omni-tool there's nothing universe wise that has to change. Just the finesse of programming, amount of power needed, and ability to buy the function or create it (th latter being where engineers would shine).

Gameplay-wise, i'm up for anything that changes things up a bit. And your proposal is sound, imo, for that. But, just like bonus powers in ME2, they just don't jive with the universe in my understanding of it.

Modifié par RGFrog, 03 juin 2011 - 04:00 .

#19
Guest_Aotearas_*
Posté 03 juin 2011 - 11:24

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Kronner wrote...

I'd prefer classes with unique powers, with no (or at least as little as possible) overlap.
I think that the powers available to the class should define the playstyle, not +X% to this or that.

Why should Adept's Pull be any better than Vanguard's? I'd rather see Adept with more advanced biotics (e.g. Singularity, Stasis) that would not be accessible to Vanguard (or any other class) at all.

According to Christina Norman's twitter, we are getting one new power per class, so it does not sound like any major changes are coming.


Those classes would have unique powers that are both/either based on affinity and the class passive.

High affinity means more and other evolutions you can choose. Plus I wrote that classes with affinity have enhanced effects on powers as opposed to classes that merely possess the ability to use some without affinity.

Let's take some powers as example and see what I had in mind:

Biotic Charge:
Non-biotic affinitive class can't access that power as it is a mid tier skill.
Moderate affinity classes (Vanguard/Sentinel) aswell as great affinity specialists (Adept) have access to that power.
At standard affinity level a Vanguard can choose three evolutions, each becoming more potent after another. An Adept can choose up to five evolutions, so, along with his boni, is the stronger "charger" on the paper. However, the Vanguard has additional combat affinity (more health, better speed, greater damage output with weapons and powers that enhance direct combat), so in combat situations that are not one-on-one biotic duels, the Vanguard will still be the better "Vanguard".
Due to the greater affinity, the Adept can choose more potent versions, such as for example upon impact, the Adept creates a biotic shockwave acting like a powerful warpbomb (unique Adept variation of Charge for example). Such power would of course come with a price (increased cooldown for example), making that power (should you choose those evolutions) more a finisher than a power to build your strategy on.
Also, if the Vanguard specializes his passive towards the biotic affinity, he gains access to a forth evolution, bringing him a little close to even ground. But, in addition, the class passive offers a unique evolution for the Vanguard, for example the ability to charge twice at the cost of only one cooldown (zigzagging through the battlefield) at the expense of an increased one when it applies, meaning you could swoosh from one target right into another one, to either cause more carnage or to hit-and-run, or you can possible charge the same enemy twice for added damage and power effects (regenerated barriers, AoE effect for CC or whatever comes in handy).
This specialization would be granted every single Vanguard that reaches a certain passive level and is not bound by what path you chose.


Another example - Tech enhanced shields:
Same as above, non-affinity classes can not access this mid tier power.
Moderate affinities enable three evolutions, enhanced affinity grant another one more evolution and tech specialists can access five.
So Engineer, Infiltrator and Sentinel can access this enhaced shielding.
Now let's get to the class passive uniques: The Sentinal can access his Tech Armor evolution and the Infiltrator can modify the enhanced shielding into a stealth device. Those are variantions the engineer does not possess. He could however for example modify his shields along with a little apperature to create a decoy of himself to confuse enemies and possibly lure them into a boobytrap. Or he could create a panic button with drastically decreased cooldown (but less overall protection bonus). Or overload his own shields to create a more powerful stun-effect than the Tech Armor possess (at the expense of not granting the defense bonus).
All those are the same powers, available for the same classes, but their different uniques and additional boni make each application unique. No power is the same as you played with another class, at least not by the time you come to fruition your build.


As for the initial question you posed with "Pull" as reference. Adepts are specialists. All they do from dawn till dusk is to train their biotics and possibly study unusual adaptations. They don't have to be entirely practical. The Vanguard however is trimmed for combat efficiency and effectiveness. Fancy stuff gets forsaken for reliable performance applicable in the utmost possible combat situations. An Adept is not primarily restrained by such doctrines.
The Vanguards Pull will still by powerful and extremely useful, with various evolutions ready to exploit weaknesses (or create them), but the Adept might just have had enough time and training to let his probably perversed mind come up with some dreadful way twisting the battlefield which would normally not be practical for day-to-day combat as the Vanguards sees it. As opposed to offset enemy balance by lifting them through the air, a powerful Adept could instead increase their mass and drag them over the ground, slowly shredding away some armor in the process for example.
Afterall, the Adepts only purpose is to fling opponents. The Vanguards job does include aggression and frontline combat. It is afterall his job to make sure the Adept has the breathing space to unleash his highly trained biotics on the enemy.

I am merely trying to blur in the edges of each class, but in the end, they (at least can) play entirely different.

#20
F00lishG
Posté 04 juin 2011 - 04:44

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Creating a Jack of All Trades, as in a Shepard who can handle everything thrown at him because he's got a bit of everything doesn't fit in the world of Mass Effect, only because Shepard doesn't do things alone. In game you're supposed to bring people to fill in the gaps you can't in certain situations and battles.

#21
The Spamming Troll
Posté 05 juin 2011 - 02:14

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ME3 might not lways give you 2 squadmates. it might not even have actual squadmates, just cameo squadmates.

#22
termokanden
Posté 05 juin 2011 - 02:28

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Well I sure hope it has at least some real squadmates.

#23
Kronner
Posté 05 juin 2011 - 06:28

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Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Those classes would have unique powers that are both/either based on affinity and the class passive.

...

I am merely trying to blur in the edges of each class, but in the end, they (at least can) play entirely different.


Yeah, I understand what you mean. But I have to say that I hope classes will be as different as possible in ME3, ideally with no shared powers.

#24
Guest_lightsnow13_*
Posté 05 juin 2011 - 09:25

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To be honest..this would defeat the purpose of the classes. Actually, this would also make it feel like the classes aren't very distinguished at all. Although I complement you on your thorough post.

Modifié par lightsnow13, 05 juin 2011 - 09:26 .

#25
mcsupersport
Posté 06 juin 2011 - 02:02

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I would much rather see a class specific power then options on what your other are within the group/class. IE, tech and biotic don't mix except for Sentinel. Soldier doesn't get biotics except for Vanguards and no tech skills except for Infiltrators. Soldiers should get better grenades, AR, weapons, better use of ammo powers, armor skills, and the such. Biotic and Tech classes should get a mix of powers with maybe some reserved for the specialist only, like Stasis being only available to Adepts.

I personally feel the grab bag system you are advocating would dilute the game classes and generally make for a worse game overall. I really don't like the "Elder Scrolls" style of classes, and much prefer the harder D&D style.
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