268 réponses à ce sujet

[woods26]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

CajNatalie wrote...

I don't see what's wrong with the death/resurrection thing.

Plot device. It worked.

When It's OK for the Protagonist to Die

Promise me to read this entire article, otherwise don't bother engaging me if you intend to.

Good article. But... aren't the people at BW supposed to be professional writers? Don't they know this stuff? One has to wonder.

I would *love* to see someone interview Mac Walters and interrogate him on Shepard's death. I'd love to see him attempting to show it was good writing. Also, I'd love to know if Mr. Walters ever played ME1. I'm sure he must have read the script for it, but did he ever actually sit down and play? I'd seriously bet good money that he never has.

It's not math, it's art. People can argue if it was good or bad writing all day if they want to. But to post a link as if it's the set in stone rule to which all writers must follow is laughable.

[onelifecrisis]

woods26 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

CajNatalie wrote...

I don't see what's wrong with the death/resurrection thing.

Plot device. It worked.

When It's OK for the Protagonist to Die

Promise me to read this entire article, otherwise don't bother engaging me if you intend to.

Good article. But... aren't the people at BW supposed to be professional writers? Don't they know this stuff? One has to wonder.

I would *love* to see someone interview Mac Walters and interrogate him on Shepard's death. I'd love to see him attempting to show it was good writing. Also, I'd love to know if Mr. Walters ever played ME1. I'm sure he must have read the script for it, but did he ever actually sit down and play? I'd seriously bet good money that he never has.

It's not math, it's art. People can argue if it was good or bad writing all day if they want to. But to post a link as if it's the set in stone rule to which all writers must follow is laughable.

Sure, it's art. And some art is priceless, while other art is worthless.

[Ragnarok521]

Mesina2 wrote...

Side quests? Yes! They are better! Most ME1 side quests were just generic badly made maps that you drive Mako with bad controls, you go to generic made base or tunnel to do generic side quest so you can shoot people with bad shooting mechanic and mediocre RPG elements.

I disagree. In my eyes, the ME2 UNC sidequests were little more than shooting galleries with different scenarios and all felt very generic. Save for one or two sidequests, the great details that ME2 sidquests lack is choice, conversation, exposition, etc. 

Modifié par Ragnarok521, 01 juin 2011 - 08:08 .

[CroGamer002]

Da Mecca wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

CajNatalie wrote...

I don't see what's wrong with the death/resurrection thing.

Plot device. It worked.

When It's OK for the Protagonist to Die

Promise me to read this entire article, otherwise don't bother engaging me if you intend to.

I read it.
I don't see ANYTHING bad for what ME2 did.

Shepard died for no reason.

THAT'S bad.

Oh I'm sorry, there IS a reason.

[woods26]

onelifecrisis wrote...

woods26 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

CajNatalie wrote...

I don't see what's wrong with the death/resurrection thing.

Plot device. It worked.

When It's OK for the Protagonist to Die

Promise me to read this entire article, otherwise don't bother engaging me if you intend to.

Good article. But... aren't the people at BW supposed to be professional writers? Don't they know this stuff? One has to wonder.

I would *love* to see someone interview Mac Walters and interrogate him on Shepard's death. I'd love to see him attempting to show it was good writing. Also, I'd love to know if Mr. Walters ever played ME1. I'm sure he must have read the script for it, but did he ever actually sit down and play? I'd seriously bet good money that he never has.

It's not math, it's art. People can argue if it was good or bad writing all day if they want to. But to post a link as if it's the set in stone rule to which all writers must follow is laughable.

Sure, it's art. And some art is priceless, while other art is worthless.

That was deep.

[Savber100]

Da Mecca wrote...

Savber100 wrote...
snip

No the Loyalty missions ARE NOT sidequest.

I don't care what you say. if you want people to live you have to do them, not all of them but enough to see that you survive.

A large majority of the game's content is Loyalty misiions, they are not side quest, they are integral to the plot and if you don't do them because you don't have to you are not only cheating yourself out of content but you are a damn fool.

*facepalms*

And yet, they were OPTIONAL just like any other sidequest. No they're not integral to the main plot since you can still play the game to the end without ever completing a single loyalty mission.

It's not a ****ing main questline when you can skip it. Loyalty missions are sidequests that affects the ending just like any good sidequests.

But seeing how you didn't dispute any of my other OPINIONS, I assume you agree with everything else.

But lets assume you're right that LM are not SQ since they affected the main plot.

And?

The LM were the best part in ME2 and if they're part of the main quests than that just refuted the argument that ME2 was just a bunch of meaningless side quests.

Modifié par Savber100, 01 juin 2011 - 08:12 .

[CroGamer002]

Ragnarok521 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Side quests? Yes! They are better! Most ME1 side quests were just generic badly made maps that you drive Mako with bad controls, you go to generic made base or tunnel to do generic side quest so you can shoot people with bad shooting mechanic and mediocre RPG elements.

I disagree. In my eyes, the ME2 UNC sidequests were little more than shooting galleries with different scenarios and all felt very generic. Save for one or two sidequests, the great detail that ME2 sidquests lack is choice, conversation, exposition, etc. 

There are only 3-4 side quests with choices and only 1 wasn't generic( one with Toombs) plot wise.

Other ones are generic, those who don't have choices are still generic plot wise.
Who cares that they have choices?! They are still generic!

Something generic is not something to be praised.

[Fiery Phoenix]

woods26 wrote...

(...)

It's not math, it's art. People can argue if it was good or bad writing all day if they want to. But to post a link as if it's the set in stone rule to which all writers must follow is laughable.

Two things:

1) Shepard's death is quite literally the definition of sensationalism. That is to say, it is purely an attention-arousing plot device that has no real basis storywise.

2) If there is one thing that could be credited to Shepard's death, it's joining Cerberus. That is, Shepard could have been killed off so that it would be more convenient to get her to work with Cerberus for the course of ME2. That much I will give it. But considering that was literally everything to it, then it is, so far, a pointless plot device. You do not kill off a protagonist to make such a simple change in a story--unless it is meant to have a much more significant impact later on through the story, in which case it would make sense. As it stands, however, it is anything but a good idea.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 01 juin 2011 - 08:37 .

[onelifecrisis]

Mesina2 wrote...

Da Mecca wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

CajNatalie wrote...

I don't see what's wrong with the death/resurrection thing.

Plot device. It worked.

When It's OK for the Protagonist to Die

Promise me to read this entire article, otherwise don't bother engaging me if you intend to.

I read it.
I don't see ANYTHING bad for what ME2 did.

Shepard died for no reason.

THAT'S bad.

Oh I'm sorry, there IS a reason.

So the reason is to establish that
a) Shepard is not immune to giant space lasers (who'd have thunk it?) and
Shepard can be resurrected from any death (no matter the level of physical trauma) for 4 billion credits a pop.

Shepard's death didn't re-establish the reapers as a threat to anything other than Cerberus' bank account. The Collector attack on the Normandy cost humanity 4 billion credits and *nothing* else.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 01 juin 2011 - 08:16 .

[woods26]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

woods26 wrote...

(...)

It's not math, it's art. People can argue if it was good or bad writing all day if they want to. But to post a link as if it's the set in stone rule to which all writers must follow is laughable.

Two things:
1) Shepard's death quite literally the definition of sensationalism. That is to say, it is purely an attention-arousing plot device that has no real basis storywise.
2) If there is one thing that could be credited to Shepard's death, it's joining Cerberus. That is, Shepard could have been killed off so that it would have been convenient to get her to work with Cerberus for the course of ME2. That much I will give it. But considering that was literally everything to it, then it is, so far, a pointless plot device. You do not kill off a protagonist to make such a simple change in a story--unless it is meant to have a much more significant impact later on through the story, in which case it would make sense. As it stands, however, it is anything but a good idea.

Why are you quoting me? I never said if I liked the story in ME2 did I? How do you know I don't agree with you? I never said one way or the other and don't intend to.

[Trinity66]

Savber100 wrote...

Trinity66 wrote...

Can't understand what people mean when saying "ME1 story was better, but anything else is better in ME2"... What is better? ME2 only have smoother gameplay (combat) and environment.

Other then that:

Better exploration? - No
Better customization? - No
Better side quests? - No
Better main quests? - No
Better vehicle? - No
Better Citadel? - No
Banters? - No
Better dialogues? -No

I don't know, should I continue?

OK, better DLCs for ME2, that's it.

Just my opinion, don't attack me now.

Good god... not again.

Let me put this simply... a great deal of the issues you raised were subjective and not absolute facts.

Better Exploration - Depends. Personally while ME2 might have few places to explore, I found them richer and more varied in comparison to vast copy-paste areas that ME had. Noveria has nothing on Illium besides being slightly bigger. To me it's was a quality vs quantity comparison and while greater quantity amped up the epic feel, ME2's hubs were more interesting to look at and explore. Not to say it was perfect. I would love to see the scope expanded.

Better Customization - I agree but this is a point that everyone was raging about so I don't see how this is a new issue.

Better Side Quests - I'm assuming that the recuriment quests were ME2's side and loyalty quests since they were mostly optional. If so, ME2 wins this round. Hands down. It was in these quests that the writing was strongest. Mac Walters did well in developing your squadmates. ME sidequests... I honestly can't remember any right now. I think I recall one where I had to drive the Mako to another loca- Oh wait.  ;P

Better Main Quests - Once again, I though the MQ did well for a second installment. It broke the typical save-the-world quests we have from Bioware and gave us a more personal story. ME2 sets up many key issues for ME3 (genopahe, quarian v geth etc) while also eliminating the Collector threat.

I agree that the Cerberus issue could have been handled better but it wasn't a gamebreaker for me. Liara also unwillingly sided with Cerberus to find Shepard's body because no one else would and the same goes for Shepard where I don't work with Cerberus, they're just an asset I'm using and I expressed that in the dialogue choices.

Better vehicle? I liked the Hammerhead better. The Mako was a meh for me. Once again, I think this is purely subjective and I won't mind some vast improvements upon the vechicles. ;P

Better Citadel? - You get this one.

Banters? -  Both ME and ME2 lacked this so I can't see how ME was better than ME2 on squad banters.  Truth be told, I think the ME team can take some advice from the DA team in increasing squad banter.

Better dialogues? - Really? Prove it. (I'm not talking about story arcs just dialogues.)

I got

Garrus Vakarian:
Do you ever miss those talks we had on the elevators?
Tali'Zorah:
No.
Garrus Vakarian:
Come on. Remember how we'd always ask you about life on the flotilla? It was an opportunity to share!
Tali'Zorah:
This conversation is over.
Garrus Vakarian:
Tell me again about your immune system.
Tali'Zorah:
I have a shotgun.
Garrus Vakarian:
Mmmmaybe we'll talk later.


Commander Shepard:
[discussing 'sparring'[/i]] So when should I book the room?
Garrus Vakarian:
I'd wait if you're OK with it. Disrupt the crew a little as possible.
Take that last chance to find some calm just before the storm. You know
me, always like to savor that last shot before popping the heatsink.

[Shepard gives Garrus a knowing smirk[/i]]

Garrus Vakarian:
Wait... that metaphor just went somewhere horrible.


Gunnery Chief:
This, recruits, is a 20-kilo ferrous slug. Feel the weight. Every five
seconds, the main gun of an Everest-class dreadnought accelerates one to
1.3 percent of light speed. It impacts with the force of a 38-kilotomb
bomb. That is three times the yield of the city buster dropped on
Hiroshima back on Earth. That means Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest
son-of-a-**** in space. Now! Serviceman Burnside! What is Newton's
First Law?


"I am a biotic GOD!" - High Volus (And anything this guy said)

Your move. ;D

About dialogues ... There are indeed some fine lines in ME2, but also many, many bad ones. Just read the thread someone created not long ago about most hated dialogues or something. I'm not saying ME1 was perfect with those, but ME2 is winner there (for bad ones). 

[onelifecrisis]

woods26 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

woods26 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

CajNatalie wrote...

I don't see what's wrong with the death/resurrection thing.

Plot device. It worked.

When It's OK for the Protagonist to Die

Promise me to read this entire article, otherwise don't bother engaging me if you intend to.

Good article. But... aren't the people at BW supposed to be professional writers? Don't they know this stuff? One has to wonder.

I would *love* to see someone interview Mac Walters and interrogate him on Shepard's death. I'd love to see him attempting to show it was good writing. Also, I'd love to know if Mr. Walters ever played ME1. I'm sure he must have read the script for it, but did he ever actually sit down and play? I'd seriously bet good money that he never has.

It's not math, it's art. People can argue if it was good or bad writing all day if they want to. But to post a link as if it's the set in stone rule to which all writers must follow is laughable.

Sure, it's art. And some art is priceless, while other art is worthless.

That was deep.

I win.

[Savber100]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...


2) If there is one thing that could be credited to Shepard's death, it's joining Cerberus. That is, Shepard could have been killed off so that it would have been convenient to get her to work with Cerberus for the course of ME2. That much I will give it. But considering that was literally everything to it, then it is, so far, a pointless plot device. You do not kill off a protagonist to make such a simple change in a story--unless it is meant to have a much more significant impact later on through the story, in which case it would make sense. As it stands, however, it is anything but a good idea.

Out of curiosity, what would you have Shepard do? We keep acting like there's another organization with billion of credits to help us but I can't seem to recall anyone that would help a formerly dead Spectre.

Why can't this be one of those choices in which an alternative simply does not exist? You know.. just like real life. We can't always have a way out, we can only choose how to respond to it.

Modifié par Savber100, 01 juin 2011 - 08:23 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

woods26 wrote...

(...)

Why are you quoting me? I never said if I liked the story in ME2 did I? How do you know I don't agree with you? I never said one way or the other and don't intend to.

Your comment seemed to imply a disagreement. Apologies if that wasn't the case. My post is still relevant, though.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Savber100 wrote...

(...)

Out of curiosity, what would you have Shepard do? We keep acting like there's another organization with billion of credits to help us but I can't seem to recall anyone that would help a formerly dead Spectre.

Which is my point. The problem here is Shepard's death wasn't necessary to begin with. Hundreds of ways to get her to join up with Cerberus without the need to kill her off.

[Fixers0]

Mesina2 wrote...

Da Mecca wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

CajNatalie wrote...

I don't see what's wrong with the death/resurrection thing.

Plot device. It worked.

When It's OK for the Protagonist to Die

Promise me to read this entire article, otherwise don't bother engaging me if you intend to.

I read it.
I don't see ANYTHING bad for what ME2 did.

Shepard died for no reason.

THAT'S bad.

Oh I'm sorry, there IS a reason.

Unfortunately no there Isn't .


-From a writing perspective of course, If the Writers wanted the Collectors to kill Shepard the be my guest, but the only way for to accept as a major story element would be if the game endend after Shepards dead, It would be a very short game, but it would be believeable.

Modifié par Fixers0, 01 juin 2011 - 08:58 .

[Ragnarok521]

Mesina2 wrote...

There are only 3-4 side quests with choices and only 1 wasn't generic( one with Toombs) plot wise.

Other ones are generic, those who don't have choices are still generic plot wise.
Who cares that they have choices?! They are still generic!

Something generic is not something to be praised.

Note I also said conversation and exposition, in other words dialogue. The ME2 sidquests would have been much more engaging if there was some actual talking and such going on as exposition and development of the side quest plot instead of just datapads lying around with conveniently everything you need to know on them. ME1 was good in this respect in that in some side quests you'd be able to interact with NPCs in a way besides shooting them. This helped flesh out the stories. Even your squadmates have something to say from time to time about the conflict at hand.

Modifié par Ragnarok521, 01 juin 2011 - 08:27 .

[woods26]

onelifecrisis wrote...

I win.

I feel dumber having conversed with you. Congratulations.

[woods26]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

woods26 wrote...

(...)

Why are you quoting me? I never said if I liked the story in ME2 did I? How do you know I don't agree with you? I never said one way or the other and don't intend to.

Your comment seemed to imply a disagreement. Apologies if that wasn't the case. My post is still relevant, though.

I just disagree about the link is all.

[CroGamer002]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Oh I'm sorry, there IS a reason.

So the reason is to establish that
a) Shepard is not immune to giant space lasers (who'd have thunk it?) and
Shepard can be resurrected from any death (no matter the level of physical trauma) for 4 billion credits a pop.

Shepard's death didn't re-establish the reapers as a threat to anything other than Cerberus' bank account. The Collector attack on the Normandy cost humanity 4 billion credits and *nothing* else.

In other words, you didn't payed attention.
Which even smudboy gave a point to him. And we all know hoe smudboy is stubborn.

Let me quote what he actually said:

"Mass Effect 1 end on the high note. We killed the Reaper, yay! If we can kill one, we can kill all. Maybe we can beat them, maybe we can actually do this. This is bad for the Reapers. They don't want us having hope. So what's the best way to get rid of that hope? Well you find the person that created it and beat the crap out of them! Which is exactly what they did. In the begging of the game by the Collectors and thus the Reapers,finding Normandy and blowing it to bloody hell, it reminds everyone including Shepard, the crew and the gamer that Reapers are baddest threat that galaxy has ever seen. And just because you killed one of them that doesn't mean that they can't reach out and touch you, in very very not good way. I think it did excellent job in bringing the atmosphere of the game from one of hope to back down to one desperation."

Do I have to bold key parts?

[Dave666]

The thing about side quests in ME:1 that I really, really missed in ME:2 was actually something simple. Choices.

In ME:1 it was often possible to choose the right dialog options and avoid fighting at all. Major Kyle and his Biotic Cult springs to mind as an example. You could go in all guns blazing and kill everything in sight, or you could talk to them and resolve it peacefully. There was not a single instance in ME:2 where that was possible (that I can recall), every single time conversation ultimately led to a shoot out.

[Da Mecca]

Dave666 wrote...

The thing about side quests in ME:1 that I really, really missed in ME:2 was actually something simple. Choices.

In ME:1 it was often possible to choose the right dialog options and avoid fighting at all. Major Kyle and his Biotic Cult springs to mind as an example. You could go in all guns blazing and kill everything in sight, or you could talk to them and resolve it peacefully. There was not a single instance in ME:2 where that was possible (that I can recall), every single time conversation ultimately led to a shoot out.

Indeed.

Too many, "go here, flip switches" and "go here,  and shoot some mooks" missions.

As a matter of fact that's all N7 missions were.

That ship wreck thing was pretty cool, but movement was too restricted to make it great, sounds like it would have worked better in ME3 with Shepard's increased agility.

Modifié par Da Mecca, 01 juin 2011 - 09:08 .

[Smilietime]

You probably played the wrong class.

Some people focus on enjoying the JOURNEY, of the game. Mass Effect 2 is all about the characters. Love them, hate them. Bioware talks on and on about how story is important, but what they are actually good at is the characters. And that culminates with the suicide mission. The terror is about them, losing something you actually care about, more than the the faceless innocents of the first game (still present here, in the form of colonists).

If niether of those things is a good enough explanation, then keep in mind that Bioware's best writers are busy doing 8 rpg's worth of stories for Star Wars the Old Republic. I can't wait to play another Drew Karpyshyn story.

Modifié par Smilietime, 01 juin 2011 - 09:08 .

[Da Mecca]

Smilietime wrote...

You probably played the wrong class.

Some people focus on enjoying the JOURNEY, of the game. Mass Effect 2 is all about the characters. Love them, hate them. Bioware talks on and on about how story is important, but what they are actually good at is the characters. And that culminates with the suicide mission. The terror is about them, losing something you actually care about, more than the the faceless innocents of the first game (still present here, in the form of colonists).

If niether of those things is a good enough explanation, then keep in mind that Bioware's best writers are busy doing 8 rpg's worth of stories for Star Wars the Old Republic. I can't wait to play another Drew Karpyshyn story.

There shouldn't be a wrong class.

But I will say if he didn't play Vanguard he's missing out on some crazy fights.

[bc525]

I must admit that I missed the original Mass Effect when it came out. I caught on to ME2 and liked it so much that I went back and bought ME1. Having said that, I still prefer ME2 .... of course I also still think that they're both terrific games. In the end, I've spent more time in Mass Effect 2 so ultimately that's the deciding factor.

The loyalty missions in ME2 didn't bog me down as much as it sounds like they did for others that have commented here. I really enjoyed the character development in the recruitment and loyalty missions. The core storyline of ME1 was developed better, but the overall journey of ME2 appealed to me a bit more.

* - On the plus side for ME1 was the free roam of the Mako. That was a great positive over the sterile (and boring) planet scanning of ME2.