43 réponses à ce sujet

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Okay, so, I'm just going to toss this idea out here without editing myself much.

In Dragon Age II there is only one or two moments in the game where Varric is actually called on being unreliable in telling the story, (one, at the begining with 'superhawke' and two where he confronts his brother).  Which makes sense as if they overused the 'unrealiable narrator' bit too much people would start to question EVERYTHING about the story.

But why not?  Who is to say that those two moments were the exstent of his 'embellishments?'  Certainly, Varric says that he 'wants Hawke's story to be told,' and I think we should believe him but it just hit me that I may have found a bit where he may have, 'added' to the truth.

The Lyrium Idol.  The Lyrium Idol is a pretty Lame McGuffin... but is that becuase the writers intended us to doubt its existence in the first place?  The two (of the three) most traumatic betrayals to Varric are a direct cause of the idol's presence.  Bartrand was a bastard and he certainly didn't need a McGuffin to blame for betraying his brother.  And Maredith certainly has pleanty of motivation for the way she treated the circle...

Could it be that Varric 'invented' the idol, or at least 'overstated' its significance?  Was he just looking for an excuse for Bartrand and the Knight Commander's hainous deeds?

Something to think about at least...

[LT123]

But wouldn't there still be a Meredith-turned-statue in the Gallows? Unless they moved it somehow.

[SuicidalBaby]

that wasn't a statue so much as a crumbling pile of ashes.

[whykikyouwhy]

There is nothing to really cement Varric's reliability or credit as someone who speaks the truth, other than how we watch the story develop. He embellishes with Cassandra at the beginning possibly to toy with her, possibly to protect himself, possibly to protect Hawke. I always got the sense that he was sincere in his affection for his friends and his despair over some of what transpired during Hawke's time in Kirkwall.

The idol probably did exist, as there are probably several eyewitness accounts and records relating to the incident with Meredith. I doubt that the Seekers would question Varric if his account was the only one. Something did happen in Kirkwall, something caused a great rift between the templars and the mages, and something of tremendous power caused the death/destruction of the Knight Commander.

Varric doesn't exactly paint his brother in the fondest light, so I don't know that he excused any of his misdeeds.

[LT123]

@SuicidalBaby: Oh, you're right. Didn't notice the crumbling bits before.

Modifié par LT123, 01 juin 2011 - 01:15 .

[Rifneno]

It'd be the worst decision they could do. People are already extremely weary of the possible use of the "Varric lied" excuse. If they used it to say arguably the most significant and interesting part of the story, which people hotly debated and theorized over more than any other part of the story (well, not including morality questions) simply never happened... I can't even describe the enraged fanbase's reaction.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@Rifeno: Well I don't know if they would ever come out and say he lied. My point was that maybe they intended us to question ourselves. Remember 'there is no cannon,' in that developers WANT us to create our own stories as much as possible. And they want to 'get out of the way' so to speak when it comes to us interpreting the story...

Of course this is just the ideal. If everything was subjective then it would be hard to tell a compelling story.

So, who actually saw the idol? The people that went on the expedition. What about the Knight Commander's sword? Well, it glowed. But so does the Blade of Mercy. A glowy sword doesn't automatically mean an eldritch idol that messes with people's minds... How 'real' is the idol?

And what about the abandoned tiage?

[whykikyouwhy]

The templars, and several companions, at the final battle saw the idol-sword. Several servants were subject to Bartrand's idol-induced abuse (one survived, but his name escapes me). Granted, they could all be fluff and background scenery for Varric's tall tales, but still, something got the attention of the Seekers.

The abandoned thaig was being explored by the Grey Wardens after the expedition. Wardens being secretive and all, they probably didn't advertise their spelunking except for within their own records.

I think there are more kernels of "truth" in Varric's tale than there are pebbles, for lack of a better metaphor.

[Kaiser Shepard]

The talk of Varric being an unreliable narrator and comparisons to The Usual Suspects were only there to help sell the game.

The opening segment was 'exaggerated' for the gameplay purpose of allowing the player to check out the class they just picked, leaving just the encounter with Bartrand as the only moment where Varric was 'embellishing' the story. There even wasn't a Keyser Söze-ish caliber twist at the end.

Like I said in the topic about the framed narrative, it only seemed to be there to drive the story forward, allowing it jump several years forward without any other real use. Compared to Alpha Protocol narrative, where you - the main character - were basically the narrator himself, able embellish or hide facts as the interrogation goes, DA2's almost feels like an afterthought.

The way it led into the final scene, with Cassandra and Leliana, was nicely done, but it didn't add much else.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 01 juin 2011 - 01:58 .

[dragonflight288]

Cassandra does question Varic consistently in Act 1, especially before going into the deep roads. She believes the Champion 'knew' what was down there, so I'm guessing she knows about the idol.

I can see Varic embellishing the idol's significance in the sword and her madness in an attempt to make Hawke look like he or she had no choice in what happened. Remember, the Seekers are after Hawke since (s)he was there at the heart of the schism.

It could simply be Varic attempting to make Hawke look less a villain and more a man or woman forced into a situation by a mad woman in order to protect the Champion. If that was the case, I would guess that Hawke is more guilty than Varic lets on (although I agree with Varic in not calling Hawke 'innocent' exactly).

Could be the idol had less an impact in reality. Templars go mad with lyrium withdrawl, and they go mad when they've been on the stuff for long periods of time. An idol made of concentrated lyrium can't be good for anyone. But dwarves are mostly immune to lyrium. That shopkeeper in Orzammar (Origins) said not to inhale it or get it in the blood. When that happens, it can affect dwarves.

He may have pushed his mad brother section, even after the embellishment, in order to portray Meredith as being affected even more.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@kaiser: oh I think it was much more than an 'after thought.' The way they integrated it was great. Varric was really the heart of the group. He was pretty much on good terms with every party member and they all made references that foreshadowed his eventual role of story teller.

I especially like Merril's comments to Varric toward the end about the onrushing inevitable confrontation and Aveline's musings and Varric's reassurance that it will be "Sunsets and roses and the swift hand of the law sweeping everything aside."

That not describe the ending very well? The law in Kirkwall are the Templers (since Meradith is the defacto dictator) and they pretty much sweep the circle aside. Is this something Aveline really said, or just Varric setting up some sweet foreshadowing? A little of both I'd like to think.

No, I think it was implemented well. And I'd like to think his influence on the story was heavier than one would initially expect.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@Dragon. That was what I was getting at. I'm not saying he is entirely lying about the idol. But could he be overstating its importance or its powers? As much as he hated his brother, he was still his brother (given how he reminisces about the broken plate among other things) saying that his brother was 'pushed' to do the things he did by an idol is probably a bit easier for his heart than believing he did the things he just just out of greed alone.

Also, like Dragon mentioned, its makes Hawke less culpable for killing Meredith...

Could it be the idol was just a powerful and desirable artifact and not have any mind control powers at all? Remember he "it could be the idol, or Hawke, or Anders take your pick." Is he trying to 'sell' the idol more by giving it mind control powers?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I would think there were way too many witnesses to Meredith's moment as Kirkwall Idol for Varric to get away with a lie like that.

But the point of an unreliable narrator is so bits of the story can be labelled as hearsay and rumour at will, so you could be right. Heck, he probably even lied about calling his crossbow 'Bianca'; it just sounded better than 'Geoff' in bardsong.

[Dave of Canada]

I'm sure the idol existed, though I assume the entire final battle was an exaggeration on Varric's part. Namely how Meredith flies around, statues come to life and characters which shouldn't be anywhere near the Gallows showing up.

[Foolsfolly]

The Lyrium Idol. The Lyrium Idol is a pretty Lame McGuffin... but is that becuase the writers intended us to doubt its existence in the first place? The two (of the three) most traumatic betrayals to Varric are a direct cause of the idol's presence. Bartrand was a bastard and he certainly didn't need a McGuffin to blame for betraying his brother. And Maredith certainly has pleanty of motivation for the way she treated the circle...

Could it be that Varric 'invented' the idol, or at least 'overstated' its significance? Was he just looking for an excuse for Bartrand and the Knight Commander's hainous deeds?

Something to think about at least...

It is something to think about. Interesting idea.

[erynnar]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Lyrium Idol. The Lyrium Idol is a pretty Lame McGuffin... but is that becuase the writers intended us to doubt its existence in the first place? The two (of the three) most traumatic betrayals to Varric are a direct cause of the idol's presence. Bartrand was a bastard and he certainly didn't need a McGuffin to blame for betraying his brother. And Maredith certainly has pleanty of motivation for the way she treated the circle...

Could it be that Varric 'invented' the idol, or at least 'overstated' its significance? Was he just looking for an excuse for Bartrand and the Knight Commander's hainous deeds?

Something to think about at least...

It is something to think about. Interesting idea.

It is something to think about. But I think we are getting way too deep for a game that spent 8-18months in production? I could get more deep with the "Usual Suspects" sort of mind ****ery, if the game had been in production for the same amount of time as DAO. But when I get "ring" vs "ring", I just find it hard to believe that it goes that deep.

Did they want it to? I wouldn't doubt it. Are the writers capable of pulling off something like that and making it rock? Pfft, no question. Did it happen? Nope..insert reason of choice here<__>.

[Beerfish]

Cassandra seems to know about the idol before hand or at least something from the deep roads as she seems to indicate that the champ and his crew went down there for the express purpose of digging the thing up. Varric corrects her and talks about the fact that if they knew it was down there they wouldn't have gone or some such thing.

Edit...that's what I get for skim reading, Dragonflight already had pointed this out in his post above.

Modifié par Beerfish, 01 juin 2011 - 04:25 .

[Foolsfolly]

erynnar wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Lyrium Idol. The Lyrium Idol is a pretty Lame McGuffin... but is that becuase the writers intended us to doubt its existence in the first place? The two (of the three) most traumatic betrayals to Varric are a direct cause of the idol's presence. Bartrand was a bastard and he certainly didn't need a McGuffin to blame for betraying his brother. And Maredith certainly has pleanty of motivation for the way she treated the circle...

Could it be that Varric 'invented' the idol, or at least 'overstated' its significance? Was he just looking for an excuse for Bartrand and the Knight Commander's hainous deeds?

Something to think about at least...

It is something to think about. Interesting idea.

It is something to think about. But I think we are getting way too deep for a game that spent 8-18months in production? I could get more deep with the "Usual Suspects" sort of mind ****ery, if the game had been in production for the same amount of time as DAO. But when I get "ring" vs "ring", I just find it hard to believe that it goes that deep.

Did they want it to? I wouldn't doubt it. Are the writers capable of pulling off something like that and making it rock? Pfft, no question. Did it happen? Nope..insert reason of choice here<__>.

Of course they didn't mean for it. Cassandra has that whole "what you found down there" speech and all. The Idol also had to have statue'd Meredith in Varric's story because anyone can walk up to the Gallows and see the statue of Meredith.

The Idol existed and it's likely foreshadowing of another game.

Boring plot device that it is, it is 'real' and not one of Varric's lies.

But it's an interesting idea. I have to admit, I'm willing to believe just about anything to erase that stupid plot device. And having Varric lie to save his friend's life? That's cool.

[Lethys1]

 Here is Varric's story telling method:
So Hawke makes a deal with Flemeth after she swoops into save him in dragon form, yada yada yada now he's in Kirkwall trying to get into town.
Hawke performed jobs for some people for a year or so, then some more, yada yada yada we get an evil lyrium idol from the Deep Roads and my brother is a dick.


Varric --- .....................and then Orsino AND Meredith wanted to attack him.
Cassandra--- But that makes no sense.  Why, if Hawke supported Orsino the entire time, would he not only hide Quentin the necromancer, but also attack Hawke at the end of the game?
Varric --- Uh, well now you guys gotta look for Hawke and the Hero of Ferelden, right?
Cassandra --- Dude, answer my question, your story makes no sense bro.
Varric --- Well, lemme patch 1.03 up my story so it connects better with the events of the Hero of Ferelden's story.  Also, I'll tell you about some new adventures for the low price of $6.99 each.
Cassandra --- What the **** are you talking about?  That doesn't change the fact that your story makes absolutely no sense.
Varric --- Calm down, bra, it's just a game.  Plus, wasn't the new and improved way I described combat awesome?
Cassandra --- I never cared that much about the combat, I just want to hear your story make some amount of sense.  You're not fooling anyone with that ridiculous story.

Modifié par Lethys1, 01 juin 2011 - 04:42 .

[thedistortedchild]

Lethys1 wrote...

 Here is Varric's story telling method:
So Hawke makes a deal with Flemeth after she swoops into save him in dragon form, yada yada yada now he's in Kirkwall trying to get into town.
Hawke performed jobs for some people for a year or so, then some more, yada yada yada we get an evil lyrium idol from the Deep Roads and my brother is a dick.


Varric --- .....................and then Orsino AND Meredith wanted to attack him.
Cassandra--- But that makes no sense.  Why, if Hawke supported Orsino the entire time, would he not only hide Quentin the necromancer, but also attack Hawke at the end of the game?
Varric --- Uh, well now you guys gotta look for Hawke and the Hero of Ferelden, right?
Cassandra --- Dude, answer my question, your story makes no sense bro.
Varric --- Well, lemme patch 1.03 up my story so it connects better with the events of the Hero of Ferelden's story.  Also, I'll tell you about some new adventures for the low price of $6.99 each.
Cassandra --- What the **** are you talking about?  That doesn't change the fact that your story makes absolutely no sense.
Varric --- Calm down, bra, it's just a game.  Plus, wasn't the new and improved way I described combat awesome?
Cassandra --- I never cared that much about the combat, I just want to hear your story make some amount of sense.  You're not fooling anyone with that ridiculous story.

Awesome! 

[Foolsfolly]

Lethys1 wrote...

 Here is Varric's story telling method:
So Hawke makes a deal with Flemeth after she swoops into save him in dragon form, yada yada yada now he's in Kirkwall trying to get into town.
Hawke performed jobs for some people for a year or so, then some more, yada yada yada we get an evil lyrium idol from the Deep Roads and my brother is a dick.


Varric --- .....................and then Orsino AND Meredith wanted to attack him.
Cassandra--- But that makes no sense.  Why, if Hawke supported Orsino the entire time, would he not only hide Quentin the necromancer, but also attack Hawke at the end of the game?
Varric --- Uh, well now you guys gotta look for Hawke and the Hero of Ferelden, right?
Cassandra --- Dude, answer my question, your story makes no sense bro.
Varric --- Well, lemme patch 1.03 up my story so it connects better with the events of the Hero of Ferelden's story.  Also, I'll tell you about some new adventures for the low price of $6.99 each.
Cassandra --- What the **** are you talking about?  That doesn't change the fact that your story makes absolutely no sense.
Varric --- Calm down, bra, it's just a game.  Plus, wasn't the new and improved way I described combat awesome?
Cassandra --- I never cared that much about the combat, I just want to hear your story make some amount of sense.  You're not fooling anyone with that ridiculous story.

Most enjoyable.

[dragonflight288]

Varic: May I go?
Cassandra: Give me a minute to process your story.
Varic: It's been a minute.
Cassandra, that second you waited made just as much sense as the rest of your story.

[Rifneno]

"Varric. You make it sound like blood mages danced the remigold through Lowtown on a nightly basis." - Actual cut dialogue

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Oh, come on now. Lets not slide into makin fun of the game now. That wasn't the point of the thread... *sigh*

[Kajan451]

Rifneno wrote...

I can't even describe the enraged fanbase's reaction.

Although the most astonishing part in this is there being enough of a caring fanbase left. I do not know many 'fans' who haven't completely given up on DA2 and just consider the whole story to be Bull....


Actually, mind you. The idea of Varric telling lies from the first second he opens his mouth to the last, kind of allows to just assume all those hineous cameos they forced into the game, including the 'back from the dead' Cameos and such... would actually fit into the game if it was just one big lie.

Varric heard about the tales of the Warden and just decided to make up a person called hawke, meeting all those other amazing heroes from his home land.

In truth he has no clue whatsoever happened and possibly never even met the real champion in his whole life.

Actually i like that, i think i am going to make that my canon version.