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[Foolsfolly]

Although the most astonishing part in this is there being enough of a caring fanbase left. I do not know many 'fans' who haven't completely given up on DA2 and just consider the whole story to be Bull....

I find DA2 to be a disappointment. But I don't call it a horrible game. Just disappointing. And I continue to have hopes for DA3 and have faith in BioWare.

Perhaps this will change if more of their games disappoint but for now....it's just one meh game.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Ug. See this is why I find it hard to post here. Its hard to have a conversation with folks who say disparaging things about something you love. I love DA2. And it is hard to talk to people that hate it with such unbridled passion.

I can understand being disapointed with DA2. I played DAO and beat it like eight times myself. On multiple platforms. But I'm trying to have a conversation about DA2 and when the summation of the conversation amounts to "lol dragon age two was terrible" then I have to wonder why I even bother posting here?

Anyway. Maybe I will write a better post tomorrow...

[Wolfborn Son]

Personally, I've see Varric as an unrealiable narrator in the same sense that the narrator in 300 was.  Think about it for a moment - swarms of enemies, over-the-top combat manuvers, spectauclar violence, etc.. 

[Shimmer_Gloom]

That is actually a pretty decent analogy, Wolfborn, may man...

[Sajuro]

I support Wolfborn's theory that Varric does not lie, but embellishing to make Hawke seem better.

[Wolfborn Son]

To be honest, I'm surprised more people haven't came to that conclusion. Hell, with the tag that some advertisements where using 'fight like a Spartan', I would be surprised if subconsciously (or maybe conscientiously) that wasn't the vibe they were going for to begin with.

[Sister Helen]

Varric says something to Cassandra (paraphrase) "How will you know that I'm not telling the truth?" and Cassandra responds "I'll know."

I speculate from that comment that Seekers have some sort of ability to tell truth from falsehood. It would explain why the templars are so afraid of Seekers when they show up. (There's something in the codex about that - the people who watch the watchers...) Maybe it's a rare side effect from lyrium or an innate talent exhibited by a tiny fraction of templars - who then get recruited to be Seekers.

If Cassandra can tell when Varric is telling the truth, then you can trust most of his story to be true, if not accurate.

[Huntress]

I really hope he lied about siblings dieying and Mother as to put the seeker's far off the trail on finding any of them. Arg just thinking about it depress me and infuriate/angers me to no end.

[Kajan451]

And while this will lead us off topic, i will answer you.

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

when the summation of the conversation amounts to "lol dragon age two was terrible" then I have to wonder why I even bother posting here?

Because Forums, this late after release tend to be full of only those people who put up with all the horrible things and call it a good game, which it isn't... and without an odd opinion stating sh... remains sh... even if you try to sprinkle rose water on it to get rid of the smell, eventually we might end up getting another piece of.... sprinkled with rosewater for DA3.

And i don't want that, so i take my liberty to state my opinion and make it know how disappointed i was with all those decisions they made and to do my very best to make sure they won't forget the people who were fed up with the game and why.

Because with a lead designer who seems to be living the "The Emperor's New Clothes" story, its bound to be another The Emperor's New Clothes for Dragon Age 3.

Bioware has done amazing jobs in the past and only in the recent years, Mass Effect 2, albit still an ok game, already marked this new trend... and Dragon Age 2 just lead further down that road. So i feel like coming here and at times be one of those who voice their discontent among those of you who 'love' it. Because in a month or two.. maybe three you guys will be almost all thats left here, as the rest have moved on.

And with people left to laud this game and noone to say otherwise, it might jjust end up to delude that in the end it might not have been the huge disappointment it actually was.


And now back to discussing the wonderful possibility of Varric lieing all the time without telling one bit of truth.

[Wolfborn Son]

Kajan451 wrote...

And while this will lead us off topic, i will answer you.

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

when the summation of the conversation amounts to "lol dragon age two was terrible" then I have to wonder why I even bother posting here?

Because Forums, this late after release tend to be full of only those people who put up with all the horrible things and call it a good game, which it isn't... and without an odd opinion stating sh... remains sh... even if you try to sprinkle rose water on it to get rid of the smell, eventually we might end up getting another piece of.... sprinkled with rosewater for DA3.

And i don't want that, so i take my liberty to state my opinion and make it know how disappointed i was with all those decisions they made and to do my very best to make sure they won't forget the people who were fed up with the game and why.

Because with a lead designer who seems to be living the "The Emperor's New Clothes" story, its bound to be another The Emperor's New Clothes for Dragon Age 3.

Bioware has done amazing jobs in the past and only in the recent years, Mass Effect 2, albit still an ok game, already marked this new trend... and Dragon Age 2 just lead further down that road. So i feel like coming here and at times be one of those who voice their discontent among those of you who 'love' it. Because in a month or two.. maybe three you guys will be almost all thats left here, as the rest have moved on.

And with people left to laud this game and noone to say otherwise, it might jjust end up to delude that in the end it might not have been the huge disappointment it actually was.


And now back to discussing the wonderful possibility of Varric lieing all the time without telling one bit of truth.

Outside of the wonderful world of the internet, where everyone is a ****, I really haven't seen any real hate for Dragon Age II.  I've seen some people who don't like it as much as Origins and people whose expectations weren't met because they were expecting what amounted to a game-length expansion to the first game, but everyone enjoyed it.  At worst, much like the critical responce to the game, they viewed it as a good game that didn't seem like Dragon Age.

But hey, a handful of folks on the internet who think the game is horrible are the real voice.

Personally, I thought the game was enjoyable but flawed.  There were a lot of problems, sure.  I might have even enjoyed Origins more... But I had fun playing the game and look forward to my next playthrough after I finish my current Origins playthrough.  I also have faith in Bioware, that they're fix the faults in DAII when the next game roles around, since while they created a few more problems then they solved, the corrected main faults with Origins; it felt more like a cheapened version of Baldur's Gate than its own games.

[noxsachi]

I'd be upset if Varric's unreliable narrator was used as an excuse for anything other than 300 style embellishments as has been stated.

I'm one of the people who enjoyed DAII more than Origins, while I admit it was a flawed game, I like it way more. The companions were extremely well written overall, they are the most 'people' like companions I've seen in the Bioware games I've played. (ME1-2, DAO-II, JE) The story while a bit messy was a most interesting line to pursue, even if flawed. It had a structure and style I enjoy much more so than the typical hero saves world plot of Origins. If Origins had just been Human Noble only and focused on intrigue and Loghain's coup instead of the Darkspawn it'd have been 20x more amazing. Not that DAII is perfect. How buggy it was, how insane Act II is, the resued enviroments. All need to be fixed. But the direction we are moving is one I approve of. (Also F/R even without a middle neutral ground beats the hell out of Approval.)

Modifié par noxsachi, 03 juin 2011 - 09:10 .

[Kenshen]

The foundation of the story was true as Cassandra does say the reports she has seen match what Varric is saying. But I am sure she is aware how he likes to make things bigger than they are and even Varric confirms this to Hawke and the stories he makes up about him/her. You don't take everything he says at face value but overall the story is believable and true.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

aryon69 wrote...

The foundation of the story was true as Cassandra does say the reports she has seen match what Varric is saying. But I am sure she is aware how he likes to make things bigger than they are and even Varric confirms this to Hawke and the stories he makes up about him/her. You don't take everything he says at face value but overall the story is believable and true.

I agree with that assesment.  I'm just putting forth that maybe Varric's embelishments extend to more than 'and then Hawke killed an Acient Pride Demon that had been slumbering beneath KIrwall that could have threatened all of Thedas (Hybris) by himself.  With a sword.  Oh and there were about seven rage demons there too."

What is Varric's stake in this tale?  Of course he wants to authority, Cassandra, to know the truth about Hawke but I am starting to doubt some of the more 'dubious' parts of the plot, ie the idol's convient 'brain washing' power.

[Dermain]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

The foundation of the story was true as Cassandra does say the reports she has seen match what Varric is saying. But I am sure she is aware how he likes to make things bigger than they are and even Varric confirms this to Hawke and the stories he makes up about him/her. You don't take everything he says at face value but overall the story is believable and true.

I agree with that assesment.  I'm just putting forth that maybe Varric's embelishments extend to more than 'and then Hawke killed an Acient Pride Demon that had been slumbering beneath KIrwall that could have threatened all of Thedas (Hybris) by himself.  With a sword.  Oh and there were about seven rage demons there too."

Gaxkang comes to mind...as does Xebenkeck both of which are according to the lore far more powerful than a Pride Demon.

Hybris also seems to have been bound under Kirkwall, making the possibility of him threatening all of Thedas to be almost laughable.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Myrkale wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

The foundation of the story was true as Cassandra does say the reports she has seen match what Varric is saying. But I am sure she is aware how he likes to make things bigger than they are and even Varric confirms this to Hawke and the stories he makes up about him/her. You don't take everything he says at face value but overall the story is believable and true.

I agree with that assesment.  I'm just putting forth that maybe Varric's embelishments extend to more than 'and then Hawke killed an Acient Pride Demon that had been slumbering beneath KIrwall that could have threatened all of Thedas (Hybris) by himself.  With a sword.  Oh and there were about seven rage demons there too."

Gaxkang comes to mind...as does Xebenkeck both of which are according to the lore far more powerful than a Pride Demon.

Hybris also seems to have been bound under Kirkwall, making the possibility of him threatening all of Thedas to be almost laughable.

If I remember the codex right Hybris is a Personification of Pride.  Basically an Uber-Pride demon.  Or the most powerful iteration of the most powerful kind of Demon (lore wise AND, dare I say practically) in all of Thedas.  Just by the nature of what he is should be bad news.  The reason you kill him, remember, is becuase he is about to bust out of his cage.  The codex (couldn't find it online) if I remember seems to imply that having him go free would really mess things up for more than just Kirkwall.

And, as we are picking nits at this point I don't know if you could say that Xebenkek, though she is one of the Forbidden Ones, is any more or less powerful than Hybris.  Both are elite bosses.  Both can summon creatures from the fade.  Both are something more than just a pride or desire demon.  Though, since Hybris has better combat stats and uses a form that is generally considered to be higher on the demonic totum pole I would say there is a case to be made that they intended for him to seem like the stronger or more legitimate threat of the two.

Saying that comparing the two is  'laughable' is really hyperbolic.  It is debateabe which is stronger, from both a gameplay and lore standpoint.

And now we are off topic again.  Thanks Myrkale!

[Dermain]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Myrkale wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

The foundation of the story was true as Cassandra does say the reports she has seen match what Varric is saying. But I am sure she is aware how he likes to make things bigger than they are and even Varric confirms this to Hawke and the stories he makes up about him/her. You don't take everything he says at face value but overall the story is believable and true.

I agree with that assesment.  I'm just putting forth that maybe Varric's embelishments extend to more than 'and then Hawke killed an Acient Pride Demon that had been slumbering beneath KIrwall that could have threatened all of Thedas (Hybris) by himself.  With a sword.  Oh and there were about seven rage demons there too."

Gaxkang comes to mind...as does Xebenkeck both of which are according to the lore far more powerful than a Pride Demon.

Hybris also seems to have been bound under Kirkwall, making the possibility of him threatening all of Thedas to be almost laughable.

If I remember the codex right Hybris is a Personification of Pride.  Basically an Uber-Pride demon.  Or the most powerful iteration of the most powerful kind of Demon (lore wise AND, dare I say practically) in all of Thedas.  Just by the nature of what he is should be bad news.  The reason you kill him, remember, is becuase he is about to bust out of his cage.  The codex (couldn't find it online) if I remember seems to imply that having him go free would really mess things up for more than just Kirkwall.

And, as we are picking nits at this point I don't know if you could say that Xebenkek, though she is one of the Forbidden Ones, is any more or less powerful than Hybris.  Both are elite bosses.  Both can summon creatures from the fade.  Both are something more than just a pride or desire demon.  Though, since Hybris has better combat stats and uses a form that is generally considered to be higher on the demonic totum pole I would say there is a case to be made that they intended for him to seem like the stronger or more legitimate threat of the two.

Saying that comparing the two is  'laughable' is really hyperbolic.  It is debateabe which is stronger, from both a gameplay and lore standpoint.

And now we are off topic again.  Thanks Myrkale!

Your seriousness amuses me. Carry on.

The game is entertaining, and has a semi-decent story. I see little point in arguing over the fine points of side quests.

Modifié par Myrkale, 04 juin 2011 - 09:44 .

[bdcgvshujvgjvgsdjjgvsd]

Some people really do take things to the nth degree. If you really want to be pedantic on my first play through my party got smashed by the rock wraith so how could Varric have been telling the story when he's brown bread?

[Dean_the_Young]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Personally, I've see Varric as an unrealiable narrator in the same sense that the narrator in 300 was.  Think about it for a moment - swarms of enemies, over-the-top combat manuvers, spectauclar violence, etc.. 

Indeed.

I've always taken it in the sense 'story decisions/conversations are more or less literal, battles are exageraged.'

Which would also account for gameplay disreprency in the most annoying cases. So Hawke, instead of using magic freely and openly to save Templar X, 'in reality' was subtle enough to actually stay hidden.

A video game interpretation of real events, in a sense.

[Nightdragon8]

the problem with hawk useing magic in general isn't it because templars can sense it?? or was that the "blind guys" abiltiy in DAO

I don't see a huge issue of Varric being a complete lier Yes I think. Honestly he was repeating the story that was already out there in the begining of the game. More than likly it was a story he himself made up.

So really he was telling that story to teast the seeker. The other part when he started lying was for personal reasons most people dislike talking about family matters.

From the seekers reactions it seems that she has some outside sorces. She is just drawing the wrong conclutions. Also with the friendly Varric ending it seems more that he is wanting to tell her because he doesn't want all the blame to be put on Hawke his friend. And if what he is saying is true. then really there is alot of blame to go around. I mean Meredith wasn't exactly a great person even in the begining. Then we find out later the First Enchanter was working with the bloodmage that killed Hawkes mother. so in reality Merediths parranoia was founded. Just it didn't help that the Idol was screwing with her mind.

I mean the fact that she went right to the "Right of annulment" with the guilty party standing right there tells me she went off the edge. And then with that set down in place the 2 parties forcing you to choose, and if you try to stay out of it, Mereidth outright threatens you to join the templars or die with the mages. (sadly for me that is the one thing that erked me about Meredith during the last choice.

IMO we all should be more worried what Sandel is up to I mean seriously the guy has some killing power, and seems to be able to use magic... I mean the froozen Ogre with the "Not enchanment" (i played DA2 first then DAO) the fact that he does it in DAO, and DA2 makes me wonder what he is really.