208 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Ice Cold J wrote...

skcih-deraj wrote...

Sure. But being that if they were Shepard's love intrest and after two years of a supposed death and Shep just comming out of the blue with a terrorist organization... yeah I don't think they'd care to be rational. Even if they weren't you are still teaming up with a terrorist organization and I can't imagine they'd think any reason Shepard would expect yo be listened to.

Bad example but think of it this way, you find the person your seeing in bed with another. Are you going to care what the reason was? Or are you going to be angry and less agreeable first? Yeah bad example but still, would you expect Ash/ Kaiden to really care about what defense Shepard could make up for teaming with Cerberus?

If a best friend or GF went to work for a rival company, I'd feel slighted, but if they had a good reason, I'd try to understand and act more rational than Ash or Kaidan did.

They're NOT meeting the new LI. You don't HAVE a new LI at that point in the game. It's now more that you're working for a rival/assumed opponent. If I REALLY loved someone, I'd trust them enough to at least give them a  chance to explain themselves.

Shepard was announced dead. As far as the Alliance and the Normandy crew, he was. So why be mad that he had "disappeared" for two years? As it's said in LotSB, when Liara said "You were gone." Shep replies with, "I came back!"

A "rival company" is not a good analogy for Cerberus. Seriously, was I the only one who played UNC: Missing Marines, UNC: Cerberus, UNC: Hades Dogs and UNC: Dead Scientists in ME1? Was  I the only one who saw the corpse of Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs' anguish, and the scores of rachni and Thorian Creepers that Cerberus was experimenting on? That's not "rival company"-level aversion. That's ATROCITIES.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 juin 2011 - 04:15 .

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Kaiden and Ash both seem to have developed a severe case of Borderline Personality Disorder. Considering they go from a semi obsession state (I think at one point Ashley calls you a god) to a depressive state then to an anger state in a two and half minute long conversation By the way, everyone seems to think that they're Bipolar, they're not. A Bipolar's Manic and Depressive states last a few days, a few weeks, even a few months. But they don't change on the fly, that's BPD.

Ashley never called Shepard God. She said she believes in God. There's a difference. But hey, people can hate Ashley because they weren't paying attention to her dialogue properly if they want. Shepard is the badass who is always right, after all, and any NPCs who don't fall in line, well they suck!!!!<_<

It cracks me up that people judge characters based on knowledge that the characters themselves couldn't possibly have. Just because Shepard happens to be right about something doesn't mean other people automatically KNOW that. Some players can't step out of "third person omniscient" perspective to judge characters based solely on experiences that those characters directly observed. Ashley didn't play Mass Effect, she lived in her little piece of it. She has no idea what happened to Shepard, all she knows is her once-trusted commander has done a complete 180° turn, and after being presumed dead for two years, pops up on Horizon right after the colony is attacked. Ashley doesn't know what Collectors are. Ashley knows about the Reapers, but she also knows that Cerberus is Bad News. What is she supposed to think?

To be fair, she does say it:

"Commander Shepard, Captain of the Normandy, first human Spectre, savior of the Citadel. You're in the presence of a god Delan, back from the dead"

She probably didn't mean it literally though;)

I find it distressing that Ash/Kaidan seem to have forgotten that working with Shep led them to defying the Council stealing an Alliance warship, treason, mutiny, etc, etc.  for the sake of the galaxy.  But working for Cerberus...nope, there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that there's anything behind that but betrayal of ideals.  Must be treason.

[Siansonea]

vanslyke85 wrote...

I never said my Shep was an almighty-always right kind of guy. Hell he's done some messed up things to get to where he is today...but it's all been for the welfare of the galaxy and Ash knows that. I didn't romance her in ME1 and I never got an apology letter from her in ME2. This thread wasn't an I-Hate-Ashley thread, it was just to get opinions on if people would continue feeling the same way about her in ME2.

And that's fine, but my point was "try looking at things from Ashley's point of view". She wasn't just pitching a hissy fit for no reason, she had good reasons for saying the things she said, and Shepard has a LOT to answer for, regardless of whether he's a do-gooder or a n'er-do-well. You don't get to play nice with a group who murdered an Alliance Admiral and killed numerous Alliance Marines on Akuze and Edolus, as well as subjecting poor Corporal Toombs to unimaginable torture after his near-death on Akuze. The Alliance isn't going to just say "oh, is this about your Reaper vision thingie again Shepard? Oh, well then that's all right then." Not even someone like Ashley, as loyal as she is to Shepard, is going to just go along with that.

Ashley witnessed Shepard's activation of the Prothean Beacon on Eden Prime, and she witnessed Liara's mind-meld that led to information about Ilos, but she can't possibly know what the other effects of the Beacon were. For all she knows Shepard is completely brain-scrambled thanks to the Prothean Beacons on Eden Prime and Virmire, as well as Shiala's transfer of the Prothean Cipher to Shepard. That's a lot of mind-fuggling in a short time, and I know I'd be watching someone who experienced those things for signs of erratic behavior...

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Kaiden and Ash both seem to have developed a severe case of Borderline Personality Disorder. Considering they go from a semi obsession state (I think at one point Ashley calls you a god) to a depressive state then to an anger state in a two and half minute long conversation By the way, everyone seems to think that they're Bipolar, they're not. A Bipolar's Manic and Depressive states last a few days, a few weeks, even a few months. But they don't change on the fly, that's BPD.

Ashley never called Shepard God. She said she believes in God. There's a difference. But hey, people can hate Ashley because they weren't paying attention to her dialogue properly if they want. Shepard is the badass who is always right, after all, and any NPCs who don't fall in line, well they suck!!!!<_<

It cracks me up that people judge characters based on knowledge that the characters themselves couldn't possibly have. Just because Shepard happens to be right about something doesn't mean other people automatically KNOW that. Some players can't step out of "third person omniscient" perspective to judge characters based solely on experiences that those characters directly observed. Ashley didn't play Mass Effect, she lived in her little piece of it. She has no idea what happened to Shepard, all she knows is her once-trusted commander has done a complete 180° turn, and after being presumed dead for two years, pops up on Horizon right after the colony is attacked. Ashley doesn't know what Collectors are. Ashley knows about the Reapers, but she also knows that Cerberus is Bad News. What is she supposed to think?

To be fair, she does say it:

"Commander Shepard, Captain of the Normandy, first human Spectre, savior of the Citadel. You're in the presence of a god Delan, back from the dead"

She probably didn't mean it literally though;)

I find it distressing that Ash/Kaidan seem to have forgotten that working with Shep led them to defying the Council stealing an Alliance warship, treason, mutiny, etc, etc.  for the sake of the galaxy.  But working for Cerberus...nope, there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that there's anything behind that but betrayal of ideals.  Must be treason.

I forgot about that line, only one of my six Shepards saved Ashley on Virmire, so I've only seen that seen once. Kaidan says the line differently, calling Shepard a "legend, and a ghost".

[MisterJB]

Siansonea II wrote...
All Shepard knows about the Alliance is what Joker says, but by the time Shepard even talks to Joker, Shepard has already “signed on the dotted line” with TIM.

You must have a different definition of "signing on the dotted line" then. 
I remember you saying that Shepard should have taken the Normandy SR2 to the Alliance. How can he do that without, as you call it, "working with Cerberus"?

How does Shepard know for a fact that the Alliance won’t do anything, other than just taking Cerberus people at their word, I mean.

All Shepard has to do is check the Extranet and he'll see that the Alliance discredited everything he said about the Reapers and that they are blaming the disapearances on slavers and doing nothing about it.
Logically, they are not going to believe Shepard who claims he returned from the dead.

Really? When was that, exactly?

When they said that Shepard's warning of the Reaper threat were delusional and exagerated as soon as he was not around to defend himself.

Shepard was fine with the Alliance and the Council when the Normandy SR1 was attacked,

And how do you know that? As far as we know, Shepard could have been angry that he was being sidelined instead of looking for ways to stop the Reapers. I know I was.

Yeah, that all happens AFTER he’s ALREADY working with Cerberus. They probably think he’s mental BECAUSE he’s working with Cerberus.

Yes, because everyone who works with Cerberus is crazy.

[Siansonea]

MisterJB wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
All Shepard knows about the Alliance is what Joker says, but by the time Shepard even talks to Joker, Shepard has already “signed on the dotted line” with TIM.

You must have a different definition of "signing on the dotted line" then.
I remember you saying that Shepard should have taken the Normandy SR2 to the Alliance. How can he do that without, as you call it, "working with Cerberus"?

Yes, after TIM betrays Shepard, Kaidan/Ashley and the entire Horizon colony by luring the Collectors there. Shepard should have the option of putting his foot down, and refusing to work with TIM any further. You didn’t give the context of my earlier remark, you juxtaposed it with a point I was making about a separate sequence of events.

How does Shepard know for a fact that the Alliance won’t do anything, other than just taking Cerberus people at their word, I mean.

All Shepard has to do is check the Extranet and he'll see that the Alliance discredited everything he said about the Reapers and that they are blaming the disapearances on slavers and doing nothing about it.
Logically, they are not going to believe Shepard who claims he returned from the dead.

Well, if there was a scene of Shepard DOING THAT I would say you have a point. But even then, guess who is filtering everything through the Extranet? Cerberus. And more specifically EDI.

Really? When was that, exactly?

When they said that Shepard's warning of the Reaper threat were delusional and exagerated as soon as he was not around to defend himself.

That’s very nebulous, I’m not sure exactly when this takes place in the narrative and whether Shepard is hearing this first-hand or through someone else. It’s important to establish SEQUENCE OF EVENTS. Shepard went from hauling Joker’s sorry ass out of the dying Normandy SR1’s cockpit to Lazarus Station, with a two year coma in between. Shepard doesn’t speak to anyone not affiliated with Cerberus until after he’s taken command of the Normandy SR2 after Freedom’s Progress (after all, even Joker is Cerberus at that point).

Shepard was fine with the Alliance and the Council when the Normandy SR1 was attacked,

And how do you know that? As far as we know, Shepard could have been angry that he was being sidelined instead of looking for ways to stop the Reapers. I know I was.

Well, Shepard *might* be thinking all sorts of things. All we *know* about Shepard’s thoughts on the matter are what he says as the Normandy SR1 is going down in flames. I don’t recall any marked anti-Alliance sentiments at that point, and as I recall the neutral response was “The Alliance won’t abandon us”, which sounds pretty pro-Alliance to me. Not to mention the fact that they’re actually on patrol for the Alliance.

Yeah, that all happens AFTER he’s ALREADY working with Cerberus. They probably think he’s mental BECAUSE he’s working with Cerberus.

Yes, because everyone who works with Cerberus is crazy.

Well, everyone who works with Cerberus IS a terrorist. That fact is irrefutable. Akuze. Edolus. Binthu. Nepheron. Those names aren’t just going to go away because Cerberus tries to ‘re-brand’ themselves.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 juin 2011 - 04:43 .

[SIPES13]

"Well, everyone who works with Cerberus IS a terrorist. That fact is irrefutable. Akuze. Edolus. Binthu. Nepheron. Those names aren’t just going to go away because Cerberus tries to ‘re-brand’ themselves."

Yup... Shepard, Tali, Garrus, etc.... its pretty irrefutable.

Modifié par SIPES13, 02 juin 2011 - 04:48 .

[Iakus]

SIPES13 wrote...


"Well, everyone who works with Cerberus IS a terrorist. That fact is irrefutable. Akuze. Edolus. Binthu. Nepheron. Those names aren’t just going to go away because Cerberus tries to ‘re-brand’ themselves."

Yup... Shepard, Tali, Garrus, etc.... its pretty irrefutable.

Ash/Kaidan seemed to think so...

OF course, a turian and/or a salarian working with Cerberus... that should have been the first clue that Things Are Not As They Seem...

[ladyvader]

iakus wrote...

SIPES13 wrote...


"Well, everyone who works with Cerberus IS a terrorist. That fact is irrefutable. Akuze. Edolus. Binthu. Nepheron. Those names aren’t just going to go away because Cerberus tries to ‘re-brand’ themselves."

Yup... Shepard, Tali, Garrus, etc.... its pretty irrefutable.

Ash/Kaidan seemed to think so...

OF course, a turian and/or a salarian working with Cerberus... that should have been the first clue that Things Are Not As They Seem...

Or a korgan, because I always took Grunt with me on Horizon.  

[Iakus]

 ...or a krogan...

[skcih-deraj]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...

skcih-deraj wrote...

Sure. But being that if they were Shepard's love intrest and after two years of a supposed death and Shep just comming out of the blue with a terrorist organization... yeah I don't think they'd care to be rational. Even if they weren't you are still teaming up with a terrorist organization and I can't imagine they'd think any reason Shepard would expect yo be listened to.

Bad example but think of it this way, you find the person your seeing in bed with another. Are you going to care what the reason was? Or are you going to be angry and less agreeable first? Yeah bad example but still, would you expect Ash/ Kaiden to really care about what defense Shepard could make up for teaming with Cerberus?

If a best friend or GF went to work for a rival company, I'd feel slighted, but if they had a good reason, I'd try to understand and act more rational than Ash or Kaidan did.

They're NOT meeting the new LI. You don't HAVE a new LI at that point in the game. It's now more that you're working for a rival/assumed opponent. If I REALLY loved someone, I'd trust them enough to at least give them a  chance to explain themselves.

Shepard was announced dead. As far as the Alliance and the Normandy crew, he was. So why be mad that he had "disappeared" for two years? As it's said in LotSB, when Liara said "You were gone." Shep replies with, "I came back!"

A "rival company" is not a good analogy for Cerberus. Seriously, was I the only one who played UNC: Missing Marines, UNC: Cerberus, UNC: Hades Dogs and UNC: Dead Scientists in ME1? Was  I the only one who saw the corpse of Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs' anguish, and the scores of rachni and Thorian Creepers that Cerberus was experimenting on? That's not "rival company"-level aversion. That's ATROCITIES.

I played them to man. Some of th issue I think is either people seem to forget those points, they don't care or they didn't get to play them (as is the case for PS3 users) So in their defense they just don't know. But even then Cerberus does enough things in game to make you not trust them.

@Ice Cold J:

Not the point I was making. Cerberus was the "other" in that analogy.

You seem to miss the point though. Ash/Kaiden reacted the way they did becuase their once commanding officer is working with terrorists. Even if Garrus or Grunt is on the ground team it doesn't change that fact. Its because of what happened in the first game is why they react the way they do. Is it ok for them to just forget Cerberus and their involvement with the death of a Alliance Admiral, the experiments with the rachni.creepers and husks? Or how about the colony that got turned into husks and Cerberus' involvment?

Knowing all that, is how they reacted all that bad?

[Weiser_Cain]

I'll romance Ash if I can preform renegade interrupts whenever she starts going on about her wacky beliefs or spouting poetry instead of just talking to me.
/Jerk Shepard

[TheRevanchist]

Apologies for the Wall-O-Text....but like someone said...these topics are bad for me...they make me very heated...but their like crack...

This whole thing basicly boils down to one simple fact...the whole of ME2 was a giant ret-con in order to justify working for Cerberus only for them to want you dead the very next game...again...for example...The Council, as well as Udina was more then willing to accept the Reapers exsistence at the end of ME1. Oberseve Exibit A   Yet all of a sudden we get THIS in ME2?! . I don't know about the rest of you...but it reeks of ret-con to me. However my theories involveing the Council's dismissal of  the Reaper's is not something that appears to be seriously considered, which is of course that. Perhaps that since Shepard IS working for Cerberus they can't risk telling Shepard about their ACTUAL intel for fear of Cerberus finding out? Who's to say the Council and the Alliance isn't actually making full-scale preperations as we speak in remote colony worlds or what have you, and simpley lieing to the public to avoid mass panic? After all if these rumors about (insert name here) being indotronated are true that might very well explain WHY Cerberus is after you...(insert name here) found those seceret plans and wants to destroy you before Shepard finds out about it, meaning you would have reason to leave Cerberus and therefore might be out of the reach of You Know Who and considered an even BIGGER threat as a result. Afterall...we already know SOMEONE in the Allience has Intel on the Reapers. Observe Exibit B.





Look familiar? it should...its everyones bestest best fwend ever Nezzara!

But on a more serious note...forget the Carver jokes...Shepard has been stricken with Herp Derp syndrom since ME1...I blame Cerberus...easier to control that way. Everyone already knows the VS scene on Horizon is the fault of no one except Bioware for putting such a ****** poor effort into it. Ashley/Kaiden is totaly justified bytheir reactions...however what some people don't understand...is that many who play these games don't want characters to be individual's...they want characters to be nothing but playthings for the customers amusment...which Bioware responded to with the romance situation of DA2....-cringe's- and again by this outrageous get-up they have the nerve to call a uniform...

http://t3.gstatic.co...LN6RW0hxijv&t=1

However I'm not getting into THAT^ again...my extreamly heated views of it are summed up with this.  http://t2.gstatic.co...65LoBtEYV8Q&t=1

The last sentence of the OP also summerizes how we arrived at the result that is the horrendus picture above. "If they make her sexy I'll forgive her teehee." This mind-set is probably the most outrageous thing I've ever seen and am appauled it exsists in society, also...Miranda looks more realistic?...that was a failed attempt at humor I hope...because Miranda is nothing but the symbol of juvinile fantasy and Bioware knows it the way they sell it with those camera angles.

For the most part I agree with Sianosa II and others of similar mindest in regards to this issue, that is if you ignore the fact that while ME2 was a fantastic game it fails pretty hard as an actual sequal due to the massive 180 changes that occured. The neutral choices are the best avaliable...but far from the award winning writing that Bioware has been praised for *cough* b4DA2 *cough*. In fact...I think this about sums it up...


  Although to be fair I would probably go with the renagade choice...as long as I could do Paragon choice after anyway lol. I personaly can't understand how people think how the Allience just "gives Shepard the finger" we have no
 ACTUAL evidence of this...all we have is Cerberus sources TELLING US thats what happening...Shepard never bothers to see if their telling the truth, sure theres Anderson saying the Council thinks your bat s*** crazy, but again that goes back to my theory of them lieing to you because of your affiliations with Cerberus. Afterall Admiral Hackett is under the firm belief that the Reapers are a real threat and are indeed coming...who's to say the rest of the Allience don't feel the same? You never meet anyone else...only more Cerberus people CLAIMING thats the case. "Shepard can just check the Extranet" huh? Not if the Council is using every resource at their disposale to downplay Reaper related topics...which would include Shepard, not to mention...good luck getting actual information through a Cerberus filter. Sure my argument has holes in the logic...but thats what we all thought about Zulu's hairbrained "Trial" concept...and look where we are today. Really I could type another four paragraphs on the issue but I shall spare thee. In closing however I have more more thing to say...

http://t2.gstatic.co...nqeJEgxiwAg&t=1

Why you ask?




   

Modifié par kylecouch, 02 juin 2011 - 07:59 .

[Weiser_Cain]

Yeah.. or maybe Sovereign's remains have indoctrinated them. It's at least a shorter theory.

[Oblivious]

Gah! Kylecouch blew my mind, not with logic but with pictures!

[vanslyke85]

We'll see...I may have to do a new play through and romance Ash, maybe I'll feel differently about the situation. If I did that then I would understand her reaction more so since the only thing I can come up with to say is worse than what a 7th grader would say to his girlfriend he hadn't seen for the summer. kylecouch's new options are much better lol

[MisterJB]

Siansonea II wrote...
Yes, after TIM betrays Shepard, Kaidan/Ashley and the entire Horizon colony by luring the Collectors there. Shepard should have the option of putting his foot down, and refusing to work with TIM any further.

From a certain point of view, TIM never betrayed Shepard, not even on the Collector Cruiser since all that he did was to stop the Collectors and, quite frankly, I never expected anything more than that from him. Just because I think that working with Cerberus is the most logical choice, that doesn't mean I trust The Illusive Man.

I do agree that Horizon could have been much better handled. Even so, at that point it was obvious that the Alliance wasn't going to work with us and every day Shepard spent trying to convince them, it would be a day where more humans dissapeared.

Well, if there was a scene of Shepard DOING THAT I would say you have a point.

I don't see a scene of Shepard going to the bathroom, I just assume he does because it's logical, right?

But even then, guess who is filtering everything through the Extranet? Cerberus. And more specifically EDI.

And stopping Shepard from seeing anything Alliance related just proves they were lying, which they were not.
Also, you can acess the Extranet with an omnitool and, if you're still suspicious, use a computer on the Citadel.

That’s very nebulous, I’m not sure exactly when this takes place in the narrative and whether Shepard is hearing this first-hand or through someone else.

It happened, I believe, six months or so after Shepard died and he hears about it from Jacob, Gaby, Donelly and Joker when he first enters the Normandy SR2.

 

Shepard doesn’t speak to anyone not affiliated with Cerberus until after he’s taken command of the Normandy SR2 after Freedom’s Progress (after all, even Joker is Cerberus at that point)

Well, if you are just going to assume that everyone who is Cerberus is just going to lie to Shepard and play a role, even Joker, there's not much I can say. It's much more believable to think that TIM purposelly chose people who has been burned by the Alliance just like Shepard so he would be more comfortable and loyal to Cerberus.
Logically, you should have been able to question Garrus and Anderson if you still had doubts about it but the game doesn't let you. I can only assume Shepard felt no need.

Well, Shepard *might* be thinking all sorts of things. All we *know* about Shepard’s thoughts on the matter are what he says as the Normandy SR1 is going down in flames. I don’t recall any marked anti-Alliance sentiments at that point, and as I recall the neutral response was “The Alliance won’t abandon us”, which sounds pretty pro-Alliance to me. Not to mention the fact that they’re actually on patrol for the Alliance.

Being angry doesn't automatically mean hating the Alliance. At that point, the Alliance hadn't yet humilliated Shepard, ignored the dissapearing of dozens of colonies and tried to incarcerate him.

Well, everyone who works with Cerberus IS a terrorist.

No they aren't. Everyone who works with Cerberus is a criminal. but they are not terrorists. Killing Kahoku was murder but they didn't display his body on the news while claiming that's what happens to traitors of their own race.

 and the scores of rachni and Thorian Creepers that Cerberus was experimenting on? That's not "rival company"-level aversion. That's ATROCITIES.

How are those atrocities?
The Thorian Creepers and the Husks were already dead. As long as Cerberus wasn't purposely turning people into such, there's no reason not to experiment on them.
As for the Rachni, they stopped experiments when they realized they were sentient. Unfortunately,  by that point, the Rachni were already crazy due to being separated from the Queen. A tragic mistake, not an atrocity.

kylecouch wrote...
Not if the Council is using every resource at their disposale to downplay Reaper related topics...which would include Shepard,

The best way for the Council to downplay the Reapers threat is to spread through the Extranet that Shepard was wrong and the Geth did. There's no such thing as Reapers.
Not talking about him is just going to make people suspicious. It would be like George Bush pretending the 9/11 never happened.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 juin 2011 - 01:07 .

[Ice Cold J]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...

skcih-deraj wrote...

Sure. But being that if they were Shepard's love intrest and after two years of a supposed death and Shep just comming out of the blue with a terrorist organization... yeah I don't think they'd care to be rational. Even if they weren't you are still teaming up with a terrorist organization and I can't imagine they'd think any reason Shepard would expect yo be listened to.

Bad example but think of it this way, you find the person your seeing in bed with another. Are you going to care what the reason was? Or are you going to be angry and less agreeable first? Yeah bad example but still, would you expect Ash/ Kaiden to really care about what defense Shepard could make up for teaming with Cerberus?

If a best friend or GF went to work for a rival company, I'd feel slighted, but if they had a good reason, I'd try to understand and act more rational than Ash or Kaidan did.

They're NOT meeting the new LI. You don't HAVE a new LI at that point in the game. It's now more that you're working for a rival/assumed opponent. If I REALLY loved someone, I'd trust them enough to at least give them a  chance to explain themselves.

Shepard was announced dead. As far as the Alliance and the Normandy crew, he was. So why be mad that he had "disappeared" for two years? As it's said in LotSB, when Liara said "You were gone." Shep replies with, "I came back!"

A "rival company" is not a good analogy for Cerberus. Seriously, was I the only one who played UNC: Missing Marines, UNC: Cerberus, UNC: Hades Dogs and UNC: Dead Scientists in ME1? Was  I the only one who saw the corpse of Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs' anguish, and the scores of rachni and Thorian Creepers that Cerberus was experimenting on? That's not "rival company"-level aversion. That's ATROCITIES.

No, I've played ALL of those missions. 9 times over.
And I personally think it was a better analogy than finding your significant other cheating on you.
I'm not saying that Cerebus was innocent. Hellz no! They killed Kahoku, set-up his men (why is still a mystery), and experimented with Thresher Maws.
BUT... If you REALLY LOVED someone (as the term "LOVE interest" seems to imply), you should have enough trust in them to give them an opportunity to explain themselves. In this instance, Ash should've been onboard since the Collectors were attacking human colonies. Something she certainly could fight for. Same with Kaidan. As an alliance marine, he's sworn to protect humanity.

Anyway, I'm not saying Cerebus is an honorable organization. But that someone who trusts you enough to chase a rogue Spectre and a vision of a mythical machine apocalypse would at least hear you out.

I mean, LIARA does it. (IF you get LotSB).

[Heimdall]

Ice Cold J wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...

skcih-deraj wrote...

Sure. But being that if they were Shepard's love intrest and after two years of a supposed death and Shep just comming out of the blue with a terrorist organization... yeah I don't think they'd care to be rational. Even if they weren't you are still teaming up with a terrorist organization and I can't imagine they'd think any reason Shepard would expect yo be listened to.

Bad example but think of it this way, you find the person your seeing in bed with another. Are you going to care what the reason was? Or are you going to be angry and less agreeable first? Yeah bad example but still, would you expect Ash/ Kaiden to really care about what defense Shepard could make up for teaming with Cerberus?

If a best friend or GF went to work for a rival company, I'd feel slighted, but if they had a good reason, I'd try to understand and act more rational than Ash or Kaidan did.

They're NOT meeting the new LI. You don't HAVE a new LI at that point in the game. It's now more that you're working for a rival/assumed opponent. If I REALLY loved someone, I'd trust them enough to at least give them a  chance to explain themselves.

Shepard was announced dead. As far as the Alliance and the Normandy crew, he was. So why be mad that he had "disappeared" for two years? As it's said in LotSB, when Liara said "You were gone." Shep replies with, "I came back!"

A "rival company" is not a good analogy for Cerberus. Seriously, was I the only one who played UNC: Missing Marines, UNC: Cerberus, UNC: Hades Dogs and UNC: Dead Scientists in ME1? Was  I the only one who saw the corpse of Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs' anguish, and the scores of rachni and Thorian Creepers that Cerberus was experimenting on? That's not "rival company"-level aversion. That's ATROCITIES.

No, I've played ALL of those missions. 9 times over.
And I personally think it was a better analogy than finding your significant other cheating on you.
I'm not saying that Cerebus was innocent. Hellz no! They killed Kahoku, set-up his men (why is still a mystery), and experimented with Thresher Maws.
BUT... If you REALLY LOVED someone (as the term "LOVE interest" seems to imply), you should have enough trust in them to give them an opportunity to explain themselves. In this instance, Ash should've been onboard since the Collectors were attacking human colonies. Something she certainly could fight for. Same with Kaidan. As an alliance marine, he's sworn to protect humanity.

Anyway, I'm not saying Cerebus is an honorable organization. But that someone who trusts you enough to chase a rogue Spectre and a vision of a mythical machine apocalypse would at least hear you out.

I mean, LIARA does it. (IF you get LotSB).

  Liara was the one who gave Shepard's body to Cerberus, she knew they were trying to ressurect Shepard.  Ashley didn't.  The only logical thing for her to think when she sees Shepard is that he didn't die.  No logical person is going to jump to ressurection at the go.  You'd think if you REALLY LOVED someone, you'd tell them you were alive instead of letting them mourn you for two years only to find out you're alive and affiliated with a terrorist organization...  See where I'm going with this?  Ashley is perfectly justified in being outraged and would feel that the very same trust you describe had already been breached.  The writers failed a bit in that they didn't let Shepard really explain.

[amcnow]

I'm surprised this thread survives with way people tried to derail it early on. Anyway, Ash won't be in my ME3 playthrough AT ALL. Let's just say she lived up to her name on Virmire.

[Rogue Unit]

Lets pray ME3 has a "Virmire #2".

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 02 juin 2011 - 03:04 .

[sip and dip]

don't judge until ME3

[amcnow]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The writers failed a bit in that they didn't let Shepard really explain.

...because it would be totally logical for Ash to believe him even if he did find a way to explain it.  Even if the writing didn't happen to be FUBAR, this was a no-win situation for Shepard.

[Siansonea]

MisterJB wrote...


From a certain point of view, TIM never betrayed Shepard, not even on the Collector Cruiser since all that he did was to stop the Collectors and, quite frankly, I never expected anything more than that from him. Just because I think that working with Cerberus is the most logical choice, that doesn't mean I trust The Illusive Man.


I do agree that Horizon could have been much better handled. Even so, at that point it was obvious that the Alliance wasn't going to work with us and every day Shepard spent trying to convince them, it would be a day where more humans dissapeared.
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I don't see a scene of Shepard going to the bathroom, I just assume he does because it's logical, right?

Even an extranet check isn't conclusive enough. If Shepard is loyal to the Alliance, as Shepard appears to be during the destruction of the SR1, then Shepard ought to do everything possible to get the Alliance on board before even considering working with Cerberus. The fact is we don't SEE Shepard make ANY effort. Even talking to Anderson/Udina is optional. And that comes after Shepard's already got his Cerberus marching orders.

And stopping Shepard from seeing anything Alliance related just proves they were lying, which they were not. Also, you can acess the Extranet with an omnitool and, if you're still suspicious, use a computer on the Citadel.

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It happened, I believe, six months or so after Shepard died and he hears about it from Jacob, Gaby, Donelly and Joker when he first enters the Normandy SR2.

ALL OF WHOM WORK FOR CERBERUS.

Well, if you are just going to assume that everyone who is Cerberus is just going to lie to Shepard and play a role, even Joker, there's not much I can say. It's much more believable to think that TIM purposelly chose people who has been burned by the Alliance just like Shepard so he would be more comfortable and loyal to Cerberus. Logically, you should have been able to question Garrus and Anderson if you still had doubts about it but the game doesn't let you. I can only assume Shepard felt no need.

Well, if you're going to trust Cerberus at the beginning of the game because they happened to be right about the Collectors at the end of the game, there's not much I can say to you. I can only judge Shepard's actions by what Shepard knows first hand in that particular moment. And he just hops on the Cerberus railroad a little too quickly to suit me. I don't have a problem with Shepard working with Cerberus IF Shepard has already exhausted every other option, and then grudgingly reaches out the Cerberus. Shepard's objections to Cerberus in ME2 were universally weak given what we KNOW about Cerberus activities and methods. 

Being angry doesn't automatically mean hating the Alliance. At that point, the Alliance hadn't yet humilliated Shepard, ignored the dissapearing of dozens of colonies and tried to incarcerate him.

None of which Shepard experienced first-hand, and all of which Shepard heard through the Cerberus grapevine. Sorry, but I'm not going to base my opinion on the Alliance, an organization I've sworn oaths to and worked for years for, because a bunch of terrorists say "they're bad, mmkay?".

No they aren't. Everyone who works with Cerberus is a criminal. but they are not terrorists. Killing Kahoku was murder but they didn't display his body on the news while claiming that's what happens to traitors of their own race.

You think it's perfectly alright to murder an Alliance Admiral? That it's merely a "crime". You have a very Renegade idea about this whole situation, and that's the basic disconnect here. You think the end justifies the means. I don't. There is no justification for killing Admiral Kahoku, and even if there was somehow a 'greater good' effect, the Alliance wouldn't see it that way. Cerberus KILLED an ALLIANCE ADMIRAL. That is a big deal!

How are those atrocities?
The Thorian Creepers and the Husks were already dead. As long as Cerberus wasn't purposely turning people into such, there's no reason not to experiment on them.
As for the Rachni, they stopped experiments when they realized they were sentient. Unfortunately,  by that point, the Rachni were already crazy due to being separated from the Queen. A tragic mistake, not an atrocity.

Even if they thought the rachni were merely "dumb animals", and there's no reason why anyone should be that naive, it would still be an atrocity in my book. Sick experiments on animals are not somehow less atrocious than sick experiments on sapient beings. 


The fact of the matter is that you'll never see anything Cerberus does as all that bad, because you "like" them. But if you look at all of the evidence in the game, they are not a well-meaning organization who've made some unfortunate mistakes, as they'd like Shepard to believe. The Illusive Man might disavow responsibility for Akuze, Edolus, Pragia, etc., saying his cells "went too far" without his knowledge, but I call BS on that. He knew who he was putting in charge of those cells, and he knew that without rigorous oversight people would commit heinous acts. And he wouldn't care about those acts if they got results, he's only backpedaling because those cells screwed up. Again, it's that "end justifies the means" mentality. And because TIM successfully manipulated events leading up to Shepard going through the Omega-4 relay, we're supposed to just overlook all the horrific things done by Cerberus? I don't think so. 

[Silver]

I was more pissed that there was no chance to convince Ash (Kaidan gets vaporized every time) that what Shepard is doing is the right thing to do.
I understand her reaction, and if she would have reacted any other way I would have had to ask myself if the writers just pulled a 180 turn of the character.
Being able to explain him/herself would have been great for Shepard, but sadly the writers didn't give us that option.

I like Ash as a character and friend of my femShep, and the scene on Horizon is always gut-wrenching when she just turns and leaves, doesn't matter how often you see it (and I've seen it VERY often now).