208 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

SIPES13 wrote...


"Well, everyone who works with Cerberus IS a terrorist. That fact is irrefutable. Akuze. Edolus. Binthu. Nepheron. Those names aren’t just going to go away because Cerberus tries to ‘re-brand’ themselves."

Yup... Shepard, Tali, Garrus, etc.... its pretty irrefutable.

They really should all be brought up on charges, and Joker and Dr. Chakwas as well. As for Zaeed, Kasumi and Jack, they're criminals anyway, and Miranda, Jacob, Kelly, Ken, Gaby, et al. are card-carrying Cerberus people. They should ALL be brought up on charges in a human court.

The aliens are another matter, they would have to answer to their own governments primarily. The asari government probably wouldn't even say anything to Samara, she IS the law among asari. The salarians probably wouldn't care about Mordin's work with Cerberus, especially if he tells them about stopping Maelon with Shepard's help. The turian government probably already considers Garrus a renegade, but I doubt they would care too much about his actions, he's kind of not on their radar from what I can tell. The quarian government should have been a LOT more upset about Tali showing up on a Cerberus vessel, and frankly should never even allowed the Normandy SR2 to dock with the Rayya. We already know what the Urdnot clan thinks of Grunt, I doubt they are in any way concerned about Cerberus. I also doubt that the hanar government cares about Thane working with Cerberus either. But Shepard, Joker, and Dr. Chakwas, as well as the Cerberus-affiliated humans on the SR2 SHOULD be hauled into an Alliance court and questioned at the very least, and ideally they should all stand trial.  

[MisterJB]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
 The fact is we don't SEE Shepard make ANY effort. Even talking to Anderson/Udina is optional. And that comes after Shepard's already got his Cerberus marching orders.
[/quote]
Talking to our Councillor isn't enough? What do you want him to do? Try to convince every Admiral, one by one, while humans dissapear?

[quote]
Well, if you're going to trust Cerberus at the beginning of the game because they happened to be right about the Collectors at the end of the game, there's not much I can say to you. [/quote]
Define Cerberus. The Illusive Man and Miranda? I didn't trust them at first, and I still don't trust TIM.
But Joker is still Joker, Jacob didn't hide from me that he had doubts about Cerberus and Gaby and Donelly didn't hide that they knew little about Cerberus in general.
If I believe them in that, why should I not believe what they tell me about the Alliance?

[quote]
None of which Shepard experienced first-hand, and all of which Shepard heard through the Cerberus grapevine.
[/quote]
You experience first hand the Alliance abandoning you so much that you actually have no choice but to work for Cerberus. Everytime you go to a desert colony, you experience first hand the Alliance abandoning those who don't live in Council Space.
And you learn about the Alliance wanting to incarcerate you through the Shadow Broker files, not Cerberus. Unless you think that the Yagh predicted Shepard would kill him and read those files, you have to believe in what they say. 
 
[quote]
Sorry, but I'm not going to base my opinion on the Alliance, an organization I've sworn oaths to and worked for years for, because a bunch of terrorists say "they're bad, mmkay?".
[/quote]
It's your rigth. Personally, I never trusted the Alliance. Alliance, Cerberus...one gets results.
The only Alliance officer I have any sort of respect to is Hackett and even he is very much willing to use Shepard.


[quote]You think it's perfectly alright to murder an Alliance Admiral? [/quote]
No more than it is alrigth to murder anyone else.

[quote] There is no justification for killing Admiral Kahoku, and even if there was somehow a 'greater good' effect, the Alliance wouldn't see it that way. Cerberus KILLED an ALLIANCE ADMIRAL. That is a big deal!
[/quote]

Reread what I said. I didn't try to justify the murder of Kahoku. What I said is that killing Kahoku doesn't make Cerberus terrorists. They would only be terrorists if they had showed the body to show how powerful they are and to terrify the Galagtic Community.
The Alliance can label them terrorists all they want, that doesn't make them so.


[quote]and there's no reason why anyone should be that naive[/quote]

So, when you first saw a Rachni, you tought they were sentient beings?
[quote]Sick experiments on animals are not somehow less atrocious than sick experiments on sapient beings. 
[/quote]

Hum, yes they are? There's a certain difference between an animal and a human.
If the Rachi were animals who could be controlled in order to use as shock troopers, why shouldn't we? Lifes would be saved and it's no different that human ridings horses into war.
Turns out they were sentient, let's stop the experiments.


[quote]The fact of the matter is that you'll never see anything Cerberus does as all that bad, because you "like" them. [/quote]
Wrong. I am simply more open minded to this subject than you are.

Experimenting on Husks? Good.
Turning people into Husks to experiment? Wrong.
Exposing children to Element Zero in order to develop Biotic talent (which the Alliance also did, BTW)? Good.
Torturing said children to develop their biotics? Wrong

Project OVerlord? Wrong, just...wrong.

 
[quote]they are not a well-meaning organization who've made some unfortunate mistakes, as they'd like Shepard to believe.[/quote]
No, Cerberus is a dark Organization with a shadowy past. However, they don't kick puppies for fun like most people would have you believe.

 [quote]Pragia
[/quote]
The videologs in the facility proved that TIM didn't know to what extent the scientists were pushing the children. 

 
[quote]And he wouldn't care about those acts if they got results, [/quote]
He did actually. He punished the doctors who survived the riot on Pragia.
I am absolutely certain that TIM would have still used Subject Zero had she not escaped; no point in wasting; but that doesn't mean he approves the torture of children.


[quote]we're supposed to just overlook all the horrific things done by Cerberus?[/quote]
Who said I intend to? The Illusive Man is EVIL. I want to kill/arrest him and place Miranda on his seat. She'll still help humanity but without stealing babies from their mothers (Subject Zero) or sick experiments.
But what's the point in destroying the whole organization? Sometimes, you need to work outside the law.
If it wasn't for Cerberus, the Alliance wouldn't have done anything until the Collectors attacked Earths. By that time, every single human living in the Termynus System would be dead.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 juin 2011 - 04:19 .

[Wulfram]

MisterJB wrote...

You experience first hand the Alliance abandoning you so much that you actually have no choice but to work for Cerberus. Everytime you go to a desert colony, you experience first hand the Alliance abandoning those who don't live in Council Space.

Erm, what?  The Alliance is very interested in defending human colonies in the Terminus systems, despite those colonies chief reason for existence being to get away from the Alliance and Council.

It's TIM who refuses to tell the Alliance about the imminent attack on Horizon.

[MisterJB]

Wulfram wrote...
Erm, what?  The Alliance is very interested in defending human colonies in the Terminus systems, despite those colonies chief reason for existence being to get away from the Alliance and Council.

Instaling a few turrets doesn't qualify as "very interested". Also, they did a very poor job at it.

It's TIM who refuses to tell the Alliance about the imminent attack on Horizon.

I don't think you understood what happened in Horizon.
The Illusive Man had a theory that the Collectors were interested in Shepard. In order to prove this theory, he sent out rumours that Shepard was alive and working for Cerberus and that he would be in Horizon soon.
The Alliance suspected that Cerberus was behind the dissapearing colonists (very intelligent of them, BTW) and so, they sent the VS to Horizon because of his/her connection with Shepard.
Since the Collectors were after everything Shepard related, they went to Horizon to capture the VS, thus proving TIM's theory that the Collectors were interested in Shepard. Then, he sent the Commander to Horizon to do some damage control.
Yeah...this was stupid of TIM, he could have used the VS to set up an actual trap for the Collectors. It would be hard since the VS wouldn't trust him or Shepard, tough.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 juin 2011 - 04:37 .

[Siansonea]

MisterJB wrote...


Exposing children to Element Zero in order to develop Biotic talent (which the Alliance also did, BTW)? Good.

You think exposing unborn children to element zero in order to induce biotic talent is okay? You do realize that the vast majority of such children die of cancer and stuff like that, right? But hey, the end justifies the means, sucks for those mothers of dead children, but humanity gets a few more biotic potentials, yay Konatix/Cerberus/whoever... 


If you think that type of thing is perfectly okay, then you're so "open-minded" you'll believe anything. You'll rationalize anything Cerberus does, you'll shift blame to any scapegoat that's convenient, and you'll lawlessly do whatever you want, because after all, YOU know better than everyone else what's best for humanity. 


I fundamentally disagree with your philosophy. I believe people should be held accountable for their actions, I don't agree with the Renegade philosophy. And I will leave it at that.


 

[Wulfram]

I'm referring to TIMs refusal to inform the Alliance after he tells Shepard about the imminent attack on Horizon.

The Alliance responds to every attack we here of. They don't have the capabilities to defend every colony - and frankly I very much doubt the Terminus system would accept the military occupation of a whole bunch of colonies.

The Cerberus response shows no signs of being any more active or competent than the Alliance. They just get a piece of fluky luck when they find Veetor.

[Siansonea]

MisterJB wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Erm, what?  The Alliance is very interested in defending human colonies in the Terminus systems, despite those colonies chief reason for existence being to get away from the Alliance and Council.

Instaling a few turrets doesn't qualify as "very interested". Also, they did a very poor job at it.

It's TIM who refuses to tell the Alliance about the imminent attack on Horizon.

I don't think you understood what happened in Horizon.
The Illusive Man had a theory that the Collectors were interested in Shepard. In order to prove this theory, he sent out rumours that Shepard was alive and working for Cerberus and that he would be in Horizon soon.
The Alliance suspected that Cerberus was behind the dissapearing colonists (very intelligent of them, BTW) and so, they sent the VS to Horizon because of his/her connection with Shepard.
Since the Collectors were after everything Shepard related, they went to Horizon to capture the VS, thus proving TIM's theory that the Collectors were interested in Shepard. Then, he sent the Commander to Horizon to do some damage control.
Yeah...this was stupid of TIM, he could have used the VS to set up an actual trap for the Collectors. It would be hard since the VS wouldn't trust him or Shepard, tough.

Something tells me that TIM's "brilliant plan" is no comfort to Lilith as she's being processed into Reaper Chow on Collector Station. But hey, the end justifies the mean, right? TIM confirmed a theory, and if a few thousand colonists died as a result, oh well. 

[ADLegend21]

So yeah...how about that Ashley Williams.....?

[MisterJB]

Siansonea II wrote...
You think exposing unborn children to element zero in order to induce biotic talent is okay? You do realize that the vast majority of such children die of cancer and stuff like that, right? But hey, the end justifies the means, sucks for those mothers of dead children, but humanity gets a few more biotic potentials, yay Konatix/Cerberus/whoever... 


If you think that type of thing is perfectly okay, then you're so "open-minded" you'll believe anything. You'll rationalize anything Cerberus does, you'll shift blame to any scapegoat that's convenient, and you'll lawlessly do whatever you want, because after all, YOU know better than everyone else what's best for humanity. 

Good to se you ignored all my other points where I said I don't agree with other things Cerberus did and focused on just this one thing.
Yes, it's terrible. But Humanity needs Biotics. The best we can do is treat those who survive humanly.
And if you are forgetting, this was actually something the Alliance did.

Wulfram wrote...
The Cerberus response shows no signs of being any more active or competent than the Alliance. They just get a piece of fluky luck when they find Veetor.

Really? Who boarded a Collector Cruiser? Who obtained a Reaper IFF?

Siansonea II wrote...
Something tells me that TIM's "brilliant plan" is no comfort to Lilith as she's being processed into Reaper Chow on Collector Station. But hey, the end justifies the mean, right? TIM confirmed a theory, and if a few thousand colonists died as a result, oh well. 

I did not say I agreed with it. It was a stupid and heartless plan which sacrificed thousands of civilians just to confirme one of TIM's theories.
I was just explaining his reasoning, that doesn't mean I agree with it.

[Siansonea]

ADLegend21 wrote...

So yeah...how about that Ashley Williams.....?

Well, the whole thread started with "Ashley is a b¡tch, who does she think she is talkin' to me like that on Horizon?" And then it devolved into a discussion about how Ashley, from her point of view, has every right to doubt Shepard and be against Cerberus. It's tangential in some respects, but it's really the basic issue. Cerberus has a lot to answer for, and so does Shepard, no matter how many times Cerberus happened to back the winning horse, they still got their hands very dirty, and they need to answer for that.

[Wulfram]

MisterJB wrote...

Really? Who boarded a Collector Cruiser? Who obtained a Reaper IFF?

All based on Veetor's omni-tool data, and the defences developed from it by Doctor Solus.  I see no reason to believe the Alliance couldn't or wouldn't have done the same.

[MisterJB]

Wulfram wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Really? Who boarded a Collector Cruiser? Who obtained a Reaper IFF?

All based on Veetor's omni-tool data, and the defences developed from it by Doctor Solus.  I see no reason to believe the Alliance couldn't or wouldn't have done the same.

And just what amazing data is that? As I recall it, the only thing that data proved was that the Collectors were behind the attacks.
Shepard told this to the Alliance, they did nothing.

[Siansonea]

MisterJB wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
You think exposing unborn children to element zero in order to induce biotic talent is okay? You do realize that the vast majority of such children die of cancer and stuff like that, right? But hey, the end justifies the means, sucks for those mothers of dead children, but humanity gets a few more biotic potentials, yay Konatix/Cerberus/whoever... 


If you think that type of thing is perfectly okay, then you're so "open-minded" you'll believe anything. You'll rationalize anything Cerberus does, you'll shift blame to any scapegoat that's convenient, and you'll lawlessly do whatever you want, because after all, YOU know better than everyone else what's best for humanity. 

Good to se you ignored all my other points where I said I don't agree with other things Cerberus did and focused on just this one thing.
Yes, it's terrible. But Humanity needs Biotics. The best we can do is treat those who survive humanly.
And if you are forgetting, this was actually something the Alliance did.

I certainly don't excuse anything the Alliance did. What Konatix did was wrong. They were dismantled after the incident with Vyrrnus. The Alliance should have intervened before it got to that point. The Alliance isn't perfect, and I would never claim that they are. They have a lot that THEY need to be held accountable for as well. But Cerberus is a rogue organization who has committed numerous HEINOUS crimes. They don't get a "get-out-of-jail-free" card because they stopped the Collectors for the time being. My point has never been about the Alliance being 100% Lawful Good. My point is that Shepard is an Alliance Marine. Shepard took oaths to the Alliance. Shepard owed the Alliance a lot more of a chance to step up to the plate after the events on Freedom's Progress, but instead, Shepard just dances to the Illusive Man's tune with only the faintest of objections. That was an awful quick sellout, if you ask me. And I think Ashley, who probably thought Shepard has been alive for two years and secretly working with Cerberus the whole time, is 100% justified for going off on Shepard on Horizon. Given all the evidence she has access to, and given Shepard's weak protestations, how could she possibly just fall in line the way some people expect her to. Some players have a very simplistic notion of how NPCs should behave. They should just be worshipful admirers of the player character who don't have minds or lives of their own, and they should just agree with whatever the PC says or "STFU". <_<

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 juin 2011 - 05:14 .

[MisterJB]

Siansonea II wrote...

 Shepard took oaths to the Alliance. Shepard owed the Alliance a lot more of a chance to step up to the plate after the events on Freedom's Progress, but instead, Shepard just dances to the Illusive Man's tune with only the faintest of objections. That was an awful quick sellout, if you ask me.

That works both ways, The Alliance owed to Shepard to act on his warnings to the Reapers, instead they humilliated him. Shepard owes Cerberus since they brought him back to life.

But again, Shepard went to our Councillor, warned him, was ignored, called mental. What else do you suggest Shepard do?
This is a serious question, BTW. What do you think Shepard should have done after he was ignored by the Council? And have in mind that thousands of humans are dissapearing every day.

and I think Ashley, who probably thought Shepard has been alive for two years and secretly working with Cerberus the whole time, is 100% justified for going off on Shepard on Horizon.

I wouldn't say 100%. I didn't expect Ashley to join a Cerberus crew (I expected Kaidan to be more reasonable, tough) but Shepard can clearly say that he was in a comma for two years and that the Alliance has turned its back on our colonies. And all she seems to hear is "Cerberus".
Did she think Shepard was lying to her?

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 juin 2011 - 05:23 .

[Halo Quea]

Siansonea II wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Erm, what?  The Alliance is very interested in defending human colonies in the Terminus systems, despite those colonies chief reason for existence being to get away from the Alliance and Council.

Instaling a few turrets doesn't qualify as "very interested". Also, they did a very poor job at it.

It's TIM who refuses to tell the Alliance about the imminent attack on Horizon.

I don't think you understood what happened in Horizon.
The Illusive Man had a theory that the Collectors were interested in Shepard. In order to prove this theory, he sent out rumours that Shepard was alive and working for Cerberus and that he would be in Horizon soon.
The Alliance suspected that Cerberus was behind the dissapearing colonists (very intelligent of them, BTW) and so, they sent the VS to Horizon because of his/her connection with Shepard.
Since the Collectors were after everything Shepard related, they went to Horizon to capture the VS, thus proving TIM's theory that the Collectors were interested in Shepard. Then, he sent the Commander to Horizon to do some damage control.
Yeah...this was stupid of TIM, he could have used the VS to set up an actual trap for the Collectors. It would be hard since the VS wouldn't trust him or Shepard, tough.

Something tells me that TIM's "brilliant plan" is no comfort to Lilith as she's being processed into Reaper Chow on Collector Station. But hey, the end justifies the mean, right? TIM confirmed a theory, and if a few thousand colonists died as a result, oh well. 

Yeah, I've always had a problem with this.   When Ash or Kaidan confront Shepard on Horizon, they actually hit the nail right on the head.   Cerberus wasn't working with the Collectors, but TIM put a human colony on their radar and hundreds of thousands of innocent people died as a result.

Shepard's reaction afterwards was utterly ridiculous and TIM just goes right back to smoking his cigarettes.  So we know exactly what he thinks about the loss of human life there. 

[Siansonea]

MisterJB wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


Shepard took oaths to the Alliance. Shepard owed the Alliance a lot more of a chance to step up to the plate after the events on Freedom's Progress, but instead, Shepard just dances to the Illusive Man's tune with only the faintest of objections. That was an awful quick sellout, if you ask me.

That works both ways, The Alliance owed to Shepard to act on his warnings to the Reapers, instead they humilliated him. Shepard owes Cerberus since they brought him back to life.

No they don't. NO THEY DON'T. They don't owe Shepard that AT ALL. For all they know, Shepard is completely mental. "Visions" are not hard evidence, and much of Shepard's story can't be directly verified beyond a shadow of a doubt. The Alliance doesn't owe Shepard anything, Shepard pledged an oath to the Alliance, not vice versa. The Alliance would be derelict in their duty to lend undue credence to every crazy story one of their Marines brings to them. And Shepard was injured on Eden Prime, and everything Shepard has said, while consistent and plausible, can't be verified. The Alliance has to proceed carefully. Shepard's word might carry some weight, but Shepard isn't God.

But again, Shepard went to our Councillor, warned him, was ignored, called mental. What else do you suggest Shepard do?
This is a serious question, BTW. What do you think Shepard should have done after he was ignored by the Council? And have in mind that thousands of humans are dissapearing every day.

OMG, do you not understand how TIME works? Shepard agreed to work with Cerberus BEFORE talking to the Council. BEFORE. As in, before. NOT AFTER.

Sequence of events is important

...or have I not said that enough times? What do I think Shepard should do AFTER talking with the Council and getting nowhere? Go talk to Cerberus! I've said that from the beginning. But you are trying to justify Shepard's prior actions based on events that occur later in the game. It doesn't matter that the Council stonewalled Shepard. What matters is that Shepard agreed to work for Cerberus BEFORE giving the Council and the Alliance a chance to stonewall him. Really, is this thing on? Hello? Testing, 1-2-3?

and I think Ashley, who probably thought Shepard has been alive for two years and secretly working with Cerberus the whole time, is 100% justified for going off on Shepard on Horizon.

I wouldn't say 100%. I didn't expect Ashley to join a Cerberus crew (I expected Kaidan to be more reasonable, tough) but Shepard can clearly say that he was in a comma for two years and that the Alliance has turned its back on our colonies. And all she seems to hear is "Cerberus". Did she think Shepard was lying to her?

Maybe. Why wouldn't she at least think it was possible for Shepard to be lying? Just because they did some things two years prior, some very important things, doesn't give Shepard carte blanche to say and do whatever Shepard wants. After all, Shepard DID steal the original Normandy. Yes, it turned out to be the right call, but it also shows that Shepard is going to do whatever Shepard wants to do, and it may be that what Shepard has been up to for the last two years (coma? maybe.) isn't at all consistent with Ashley's goals at that moment on Horizon. Shepard isn't freakin' God, he's just a man/woman. I would have told Shepard to go to hell too. Showing up with Cerberus, and expecting me to break MY oaths to the Alliance—all just because Shepard says so? Who does Shepard think she/he is?

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 juin 2011 - 05:46 .

[MisterJB]

Siansonea II wrote...
No they don't. NO THEY DON'T. They don't owe Shepard that AT ALL. For all they know, Shepard is completely mental. "Visions" are not hard evidence, and much of Shepard's story can't be directly verified beyond a shadow of a doubt. The Alliance doesn't owe Shepard anything, Shepard pledged an oath to the Alliance, not vice versa. The Alliance would be derelict in their duty to lend undue credence to every crazy story one of their Marines brings to them. And Shepard was injured on Eden Prime, and everything Shepard has said, while consistent and plausible, can't be verified. The Alliance has to proceed carefully. Shepard's word might carry some weight, but Shepard isn't God.

Shepard called Saren a traitor, he was correct. Shepard said the Geth fleet would attack, he was correct. Shepard said Saren was looking for the Conduit, he was correct.
Starting to see a tendency here? The least they owed Shepard was a bit of trust after all he did.
And you are actually loyal to these people? Because you said a few words? What did they ever do for Shepard?
Put his name foward as a Spectre? Only because it would serve their own purposes.

...or have I not said that enough times? What do I think Shepard should do AFTER talking with the Council and getting nowhere? Go talk to Cerberus! I've said that from the beginning. But you are trying to justify Shepard's prior actions based on events that occur later in the game. It doesn't matter that the Council stonewalled Shepard. What matters is that Shepard agreed to work for Cerberus BEFORE giving the Council and the Alliance a chance to stonewall him.

Sigh. You are giving too much importance to Shepard being given the Normandy or agreeing to investigate Freedom's progress.
The only time Shepard could have "escaped from Cerberus's clutches and returned to the Alliance" was on Freedom's Progress (because it was the only time he knew where the hell he was) and even then it would involve shooting Miranda (the person who brough him back to life, mind you) and Jacob and hoping that the Quarians would give him a lift off world. That or shoot everyone on the second Lazarus Station and hope that he can find a comm chanel and contact the Alliance or a ship that he can somehow fly by himself before TIM detonates the station remotelly.
How do you want him to seek the Alliance before he was given the Normandy?

And if Shepard bothered to think a little, he would have reached the conclusion that he could not afford to antagonize Cerberus because chances are, the Alliance would detain him for interrogation in order to discover where he spent the last two years, somehow I think they would have a hard time believing he was dead, while humans are dissapearing. If the Alliance burned, which was logical, he needed somewhere to return to.

Maybe. Why wouldn't she at least think it was possible for Shepard to be lying? Just because they did some things two years prior, some very important things, doesn't give Shepard carte blanche to say and do whatever Shepard wants.

Trust means that little to you? The least she should have done was give him the benefit of doubt.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 juin 2011 - 06:45 .

[Wulfram]

MisterJB wrote...

And just what amazing data is that? As I recall it, the only thing that data proved was that the Collectors were behind the attacks.
Shepard told this to the Alliance, they did nothing.

Mordin's defence from the seeker swarms is based on it.  Without this defense, Shepard would have been as helpless as Alenko/Williams on Horizon

[MisterJB]

Wulfram wrote...
Mordin's defence from the seeker swarms is based on it.  Without this defense, Shepard would have been as helpless as Alenko/Williams on Horizon

Fair enough but Shepard would have shared Mordin's defenses if the Alliance had agreed to help them.

The problem here is not that the Alliance was unlucky and Cerberus got to Veetor first. The problem is that even when confrontated with visual evidence that the Collectors were behind the attacks, they still preferred to do nothing instead working for once with "The Enemy" Cerberus.

[Siansonea]

MisterJB wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
No they don't. NO THEY DON'T. They don't owe Shepard that AT ALL. For all they know, Shepard is completely mental. "Visions" are not hard evidence, and much of Shepard's story can't be directly verified beyond a shadow of a doubt. The Alliance doesn't owe Shepard anything, Shepard pledged an oath to the Alliance, not vice versa. The Alliance would be derelict in their duty to lend undue credence to every crazy story one of their Marines brings to them. And Shepard was injured on Eden Prime, and everything Shepard has said, while consistent and plausible, can't be verified. The Alliance has to proceed carefully. Shepard's word might carry some weight, but Shepard isn't God.

Shepard called Saren a traitor, he was correct. Shepard said the Geth fleet would attack, he was correct. Shepard said Saren was looking for the Conduit, he was correct.
Starting to see a tendency here? The least they owed Shepard was a bit of trust after all he did. And you are actually loyal to these people? Because you said a few words? What did they ever do for Shepard?
Put his name foward as a Spectre? Only because it would serve their own purposes.

BECAUSE I TOOK AN OATH. Shepard doesn't get to just go along with whomever suits his purpose at the time.  I hope you never get called to take an oath, because you obviously don't understand what it means. Honestly, sometimes I wonder if I'm dealing with a child or a sociopath. You really don't see anything wrong with breaking an oath? Please, don't ever join the military, I don't want you going over to the enemy's side because 'they made a good case'.

...or have I not said that enough times? What do I think Shepard should do AFTER talking with the Council and getting nowhere? Go talk to Cerberus! I've said that from the beginning. But you are trying to justify Shepard's prior actions based on events that occur later in the game. It doesn't matter that the Council stonewalled Shepard. What matters is that Shepard agreed to work for Cerberus BEFORE giving the Council and the Alliance a chance to stonewall him.

Sigh. You are giving too much importance to Shepard being given the Normandy or agreeing to investigate Freedom's progress.

Sigh. And you're not giving it enough importance. Because you can apparently think in terms of the past, present and future all at once. I couldn't help but notice that you got the sequence of your two examples mixed up in your statement as well. Sigh.

The only time Shepard could have "escaped from Cerberus's clutches and returned to the Alliance" was on Freedom's Progress (because it was the only time he knew where the hell he was) and even then it would involve shooting Miranda (the person who brough him back to life, mind you) and Jacob and hoping that the Quarians would give him a lift off world. That or shoot everyone on the second Lazarus Station and hope that he can find a comm chanel and contact the Alliance or a ship that he can somehow fly by himself before TIM detonates the station remotelly. How do you want him to seek the Alliance before he was given the Normandy?

Shepard SHOULD have left Freedom's Progress with Tali, you know, a loyal person that Shepard trusts? Rather than just going along with Miranda and Jacob. After all, Tali is VERY alarmed that Shepard is there with Cerberus, and Prazza completely flips out. Sure, Shepard might have to kill Miranda and Jacob in order to leave with Tali, but so what? From Shepard's point of view, the sequence of events was:


1. Normandy blows up, and Shepard is Lost In Space
2. Blurry scene of some guy and some woman in a hospital-like setting. Hey look, I have hands!
3. Boom, Lazarus Station is under attack, and some woman is yammering over the intercom at him. Hey! I know what thermal clips are!


Shepard doesn't know two years have passed until he talks to Jacob. And even then, Shepard's natural assumption would be that he was in a coma for two years, not that he is the first person in human history to come back from the dead after being spaced for an undetermined amount of time. The first thing Miranda does when Shepard sees her is shoot Wilson. Shepard doesn't *know* that Miranda 'brought him back to life* regardless of what that Cerberus lackey Jacob Taylor says. I wouldn't believe anything that Jacob, Wilson OR Miranda said, but I'd believe Tali. I'd shoot Miranda and Jacob, and leave with Tali, then go to the Alliance and the Council and find out what's really going on without relying on dubious intel from a "shadowy organization". Yeah, like you're going to get straight answers from Cerberus? Pfft.

And if Shepard bothered to think a little, he would have reached the conclusion that he could not afford to antagonize Cerberus because chances are, the Alliance would detain him for interrogation in order to discover where he spent the last two years, somehow I think they would have a hard time believing he was dead, while humans are dissapearing. If the Alliance burned, which was logical, he needed somewhere to return to.

Well, thank you for making my point for me. This is exactly what any reasonable person WOULD think. Of course Shepard knows different—if he believes what Cerberus tells him. But why is antagonizing Cerberus such a bad idea? Shepard hasn't played the Horizon mission yet, hasn't played the Collector Ship or Derelict Reaper missions yet, hasn't recruited Mordin, Jack, Archangel, or Okeer. Shepard has very little to go on, but he just signs right up with Cerberus, easy as pie.

Maybe. Why wouldn't she at least think it was possible for Shepard to be lying? Just because they did some things two years prior, some very important things, doesn't give Shepard carte blanche to say and do whatever Shepard wants.

Trust means that little to you? The least she should have done was give him the benefit of doubt.

Funny, you are not willing to give the Alliance 'the benefit of the doubt'. You don't doubt for a second that Cerberus is telling you the truth. And you later learn that the Illusive Man is more than happy to withold vital mission intel from you 'for your own good', so you're really not even being autonomous, you're just doing TIM's bidding. And you think everyone should just automatically trust you, even though you've broken your oaths to the Alliance by working with Cerberus? Trust may not be the thing I hold most dear, but LOYALTY is, something Shepard threw out the window without so much as a fare-thee-well. Ashley has every right to wonder what the hell is going on with Shepard, because Shepard's actions do not make sense.

[MisterJB]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...

 Shepard doesn't get to just go along with whomever suits his purpose at the time. [/quote]
Why not? Shepard's purpose is to save the Galaxy, if working with Cerberus is what accomplishes that, then that's what he should do.

[quote]Honestly, sometimes I wonder if I'm dealing with a child or a sociopath.[/quote]
Namecalling, that's mature.

[quote]Please, don't ever join the military, I don't want you going over to the enemy's side because 'they made a good case'.[/quote]
If I see my people on foreign countries dissapearing every day and my government doing nothing...
Besides, Cerberus is not the enemy. They want to protect humanity as much as the Alliance, they just have different methods.

[quote]And you're not giving it enough importance. Because you can apparently think in terms of the past, present and future all at once. [/quote]
No, I am able to analyze te situation at hand, the mentality of the Alliance and reach the most logical conclusion based on those facts. 

[quote] After all, Tali is VERY alarmed that Shepard is there with Cerberus, and Prazza completely flips out.[/quote]
Yes, because Cerberus and Quarians don't get along and Alliance propaganda paints Cerberus as the Devil.
 
[quote]Sure, Shepard might have to kill Miranda and Jacob in order to leave with Tali, but so what? [/quote]
Miranda had saved his life twice by then (bringing him back and Wilson) and she and Jacob were under his command. Good leadership, eh?

 [quote]And even then, Shepard's natural assumption would be that he was in a coma for two years, not that he is the first person in human history to come back from the dead after being spaced for an undetermined amount of time.Shepard doesn't *know* that Miranda 'brought him back to life*
 [/quote]

Shepard was on open space, with a breach on his suit and caugth on the gravitational field of a planet. People tend to die from that. Also, remember the videologs of Miranda and Wilson you can find laying around on the Station? Do you think they recorded those on purpose just in case Shepard woke up without security?

Even had he not died, Cerberus were the ones who nursed him back to health. And the first thing they do is trust him with a squad. 
You should show some gratitude.

[quote]go to the Alliance and the Council and find out what's really going on without relying on dubious intel from a "shadowy organization". 
 [/quote]
And they would have sidelined Shepard again, kept him away from anything to do with Reapers or worse, incarcerated him.

[quote]Yeah, like you're going to get straight answers from Cerberus? 
[/quote]
And you did actually. Jacob told Shepard rigth away he was working for Cerberus. "Lying to the Commander isn't the best way to get him to join our cause."
You just don't trust them because they are Cerberus.


[quote].[/quote][quote]But why is antagonizing Cerberus such a bad idea?
[/quote]

Shepard was missing for two years. You think the Alliance would believe anything he says, would trust him with a ship? They want Shepard silenced so that he stops spreading fear by warning people of the Reapers.



[quote] .[/quote]


[quote]Funny, you are not willing to give the Alliance 'the benefit of the doubt'. You don't doubt for a second that Cerberus is telling you the truth[/quote]

I did, on both accounts. That's why I went to the Citadel where it turned out everything Cerberus had said was true.

[Siansonea]

You know what, you're right. If Shepard knows as much at the beginning of the game as the player does at the end of the game, then Shepard's actions make perfect sense. So you go on being a Cerberus apologist all you want, but no amount of "Cerberus is not the Devil" campaigning is going to erase Cerberus' past actions in my book. They are still to be held accountable. And Shepard was disloyal and stupid to agree to help them without exhausting every other possibility FIRST (there's that sequence of events thing again).

And you're right about something else, I don't trust them BECAUSE they are Cerberus. I think that's 100% reasonable given what I know about Cerberus up to that point. (Sequence of events....) Call me inflexible, but people who go around killing Alliance Admirals, torturing and killing Alliance Marines, etc., don't get to just sweep all that under the rug. Cerberus may have been on the right track, but that's not something that Shepard could possibly have known at that point, (sequence of events...) and your assumptions about the Alliance are immaterial—Shepard owed the Alliance a chance to do something, even if he didn't expect them to help. Shepard doesn't know about "Ah, yes Reapers" until Shepard HEARS "Ah, yes Reapers" (sequence of events...). He can't decide to work with Cerberus because he already played through ME2 once and remembered the turian councilor saying that. 

[Iakus]

ADLegend21 wrote...

So yeah...how about that Ashley Williams.....?

Yeah, I hope that Horizon scene gets revisited in ME 3.  The writers can't leave that hanging like a cloud over them, can they?

[MisterJB]

Siansonea II wrote...

And you're right about something else, I don't trust them BECAUSE they are Cerberus. I think that's 100% reasonable given what I know about Cerberus up to that point. (Sequence of events....) 

What do we really know or think we know at that point?
Cerberus saved Shepard's life, clearly they don't want him dead.
Cerberus was described as a human supremacist group in ME1, clearly they don't want our colonies to disapear.
I think we should at least hear what they have to say. They gain nothing by lying to Shepard, because as soon as he has a ship, he can confirm everything.

and your assumptions about the Alliance are immaterial—Shepard owed the Alliance a chance to do something, even if he didn't expect them to help. Shepard doesn't know about "Ah, yes Reapers" until Shepard HEARS "Ah, yes Reapers" (sequence of events...). He can't decide to work with Cerberus because he already played through ME2 once and remembered the turian councilor saying that. 

Joker witnessed Shepard being spaced, logic dictates he would relate this to the Alliance. Shepard is missing for two years and then suddenly return, logic dictates that the Alliance will want to know where he was.
This is logic, I don't need to play the game first to know this.

The Alliance migth trust Shepard or, they migth not. If they don't, they'll incarcerate Shepard until he tells them the truth. And our colonies will still be disapearing.
In this situation, it's a good idea to have some backup. Cerberus.

[Heimdall]

MisterJB wrote...

The Alliance migth trust Shepard or, they migth not. If they don't, they'll incarcerate Shepard until he tells them the truth. And our colonies will still be disapearing.
In this situation, it's a good idea to have some backup. Cerberus.

  I don't think there's any might about it.  Who in their right mind would believe that a missing soldier was ressurected instead of not having died in the first place.  They might not even believe it was really him, but an imposter.