208 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

MisterJB wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


And you're right about something else, I don't trust them BECAUSE they are Cerberus. I think that's 100% reasonable given what I know about Cerberus up to that point. (Sequence of events....) 

What do we really know or think we know at that point? Cerberus saved Shepard's life, clearly they don't want him dead.

Who said anything about Cerberus wanting Shepard dead?


"Not wanting Shepard dead" is not the same as having Shepard's—or humanity's—best interest at heart. Cerberus serves its own agenda, and who knows what that is (besides the Illusive Man, of course)? All we know is what they tell us. Well, and that they're a bunch of criminals who will kill and torture Alliance personnel just to satisfy some scientific curiosity. And that's not something we "think we know". The Illusive Man won't even tell us his NAME. And we're supposed to just trust him? After Akuze? After Edolus? Nuh-uh.

Cerberus was described as a human supremacist group in ME1, clearly they don't want our colonies to disapear.
I think we should at least hear what they have to say. They gain nothing by lying to Shepard, because as soon as he has a ship, he can confirm everything.

Yeah, because the Illusive Man has proven to be so ham-handed with managing the flow of information. I'm sure he has every confidence that he can make Shepard believe anything he wants Shepard to believe. TIM seems to have no qualms about giving Shepard free reign to do whatever he wants, because he knows he can manipulate Shepard into doing whatever he wants anyway.


And Shepard actually does do everything TIM tells him to. Dossiers? Check. Does Shepard try to recruit anyone who hasn't been vetted by the Illusive Man first? Nope. Even Tali and Garrus are recruitable only after TIM gives the thumbs-up. Horizon? Check—and Shepard even discovers that it was a setup by the Illusive Man. More dossiers? Yes sir, Illusive Man sir. Collector Ship? Check—wait, another setup by the Illusive Man? No problem. Derelict Reaper? Okay, sign me up. It's only at the very end of the Suicide Mission, that Shepard even has the option of openly defying the Illusive Man. Seriously, Shepard acts like a complete idiot throughout the entire story—or like someone who has been implanted with a Cerberus control chip.

and your assumptions about the Alliance are immaterial—Shepard owed the Alliance a chance to do something, even if he didn't expect them to help. Shepard doesn't know about "Ah, yes Reapers" until Shepard HEARS "Ah, yes Reapers" (sequence of events...). He can't decide to work with Cerberus because he already played through ME2 once and remembered the turian councilor saying that. 

Joker witnessed Shepard being spaced, logic dictates he would relate this to the Alliance. Shepard is missing for two years and then suddenly return, logic dictates that the Alliance will want to know where he was.
This is logic, I don't need to play the game first to know this.


The Alliance migth trust Shepard or, they migth not. If they don't, they'll incarcerate Shepard until he tells them the truth. And our colonies will still be disapearing. In this situation, it's a good idea to have some backup. Cerberus.

And all I said was that Shepard should only come around to the idea of working with Cerberus AFTER (after—sequence of events...) giving the Alliance a chance and explaining everything he saw on Freedom's Progress FIRST (before—sequence of events...). Cerberus should be Plan B, not Plan A. 


And perhaps if Shepard showed up on the Citadel aboard a quarian vessel, the Alliance would lend more weight to his words than if he shows up waving a Cerberus flag around. Seems "logical" to me. At least that would be less likely to result in Insta-imprisonment.

[Siansonea]

Lord Aesir wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Alliance migth trust Shepard or, they migth not. If they don't, they'll incarcerate Shepard until he tells them the truth. And our colonies will still be disapearing.
In this situation, it's a good idea to have some backup. Cerberus.

  I don't think there's any might about it.  Who in their right mind would believe that a missing soldier was ressurected instead of not having died in the first place.  They might not even believe it was really him, but an imposter.

I'm not even convinced it's really Shepard. Resurrection is a preposterous idea, especially after so much cellular damage to the BRAIN. How did they reconstruct Shepard's neural pathways? I mean COME ON.

[whywhywhywhy]

Lord Aesir wrote...
 That is the problem, the game doesn't give you a decent chance to explain yourself or even tell her that you couldn't tell her about being alive because you were incapacitated.  Granted I don't think that reply would work.  She would tell you the Cerbreus is putting the wool over your eyes.

I agree that's why I said even if it came to blows trying to get through to her when she has obvious anger inside her that's bordering on rage.  It's like poking a bear with a stick, sheperds following her around "come on ash talk to me" but she's pissed and not listening to a word you say then she turns around and slugs you.

[Heimdall]

Siansonea II wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Alliance migth trust Shepard or, they migth not. If they don't, they'll incarcerate Shepard until he tells them the truth. And our colonies will still be disapearing.
In this situation, it's a good idea to have some backup. Cerberus.

  I don't think there's any might about it.  Who in their right mind would believe that a missing soldier was ressurected instead of not having died in the first place.  They might not even believe it was really him, but an imposter.

I'm not even convinced it's really Shepard. Resurrection is a preposterous idea, especially after so much cellular damage to the BRAIN. How did they reconstruct Shepard's neural pathways? I mean COME ON.

  Exactly

[vanslyke85]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Alliance migth trust Shepard or, they migth not. If they don't, they'll incarcerate Shepard until he tells them the truth. And our colonies will still be disapearing.
In this situation, it's a good idea to have some backup. Cerberus.

  I don't think there's any might about it.  Who in their right mind would believe that a missing soldier was ressurected instead of not having died in the first place.  They might not even believe it was really him, but an imposter.

I'm not even convinced it's really Shepard. Resurrection is a preposterous idea, especially after so much cellular damage to the BRAIN. How did they reconstruct Shepard's neural pathways? I mean COME ON.

  Exactly

Interesting idea.  He's Shepherd enough to watch Ash's butt as she walks away...she must work out.  That would take a huge leap of faith for the audience to not get pissed if they just said oh yea Shep really died this is a clone.

[MisterJB]

Siansonea II wrote...
Cerberus serves its own agenda, and who knows what that is (besides the Illusive Man, of course)?

If you don't believe ANYTHING the Illusive Man says, we're not going anywhere. At the end of the game, he just comes out and says "human domination". It doesn't get much worse than that but you still think he was lying.
Judge Cerberus by its action then, obviously they have always been with the best interests of humanity in mind. For example, puting a radical xenophobe as the leader of Terra Firma.

I can just as easily claim that Hackett knew exactly what Kenson intended on doing and just wanted to use Shepard as a scapegoat.

 

that they're a bunch of criminals who will kill and torture Alliance personnel just to satisfy some scientific curiosity.
 

Yes, because Toombs is clearly the best person to tell us why he was being experimented upon. It couldn't have been to increase human resistance to Tresher Maw acid. No, it was a scientific curiosity.

 

And we're supposed to just trust him?
 

I don't trust him on a personal level but I do trust him to have humanity's best interests at heart. He has been doing this for a long time and has many followers. Clearly, he is doing something rigth for humanity.

 

And Shepard actually does do everything TIM tells him to. Dossiers? Check. Does Shepard try to recruit anyone who hasn't been vetted by the Illusive Man first? Nope. Even Tali and Garrus are recruitable only after TIM gives the thumbs-up. Horizon? Check—and Shepard even discovers that it was a setup by the Illusive Man. More dossiers? Yes sir, Illusive Man sir. Collector Ship? Check—wait, another setup by the Illusive Man? No problem. Derelict Reaper? Okay, sign me up. It's only at the very end of the Suicide Mission, that Shepard even has the option of openly defying the Illusive Man. Seriously, Shepard acts like a complete idiot throughout the entire story—or like someone who has been implanted with a Cerberus control chip.
 

And how is that any different from doing the Alliance's dirty work? And then they grounded Shepard.
The Alliance is no more trushworthy that Cerberus, they'll both use Shepard or need I remind you about "Arrival" and the trial.

And all I said was that Shepard should only come around to the idea of working with Cerberus AFTER (after—sequence of events...) giving the Alliance a chance and explaining everything he saw on Freedom's Progress FIRST (before—sequence of events...). Cerberus should be Plan B, not Plan A. 

But by killing Miranda and Jacob and going with the Quarian you are left without plan B, Cerberus, and if/once plan A, the Alliance, turns on you, you're screwed.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 juin 2011 - 09:36 .

[Weiser_Cain]

It's what? 200 years in the future with the boost from Prothean and alien tech?
I have to think we could un-jerky a human brain by then.

[vanslyke85]

amcnow wrote...

I'm surprised this thread survives with way people tried to derail it early on. Anyway, Ash won't be in my ME3 playthrough AT ALL. Let's just say she lived up to her name on Virmire.

Yea all the Ashley lovers flocked here pretty quick to get their 2 cents in.  I was a big fan of Ash up till then.  Although now I half blame the writing.  Im sure they wanted Ash away from Shep for ME2 though so for ME3 they could say she was doing Spectre training and on her way to becoming a Spectre, or already a Spectre when Horizon happened since she says I'm gonna go report to the Council. 

[whywhywhywhy]

I have to disagree with most of the pro-cerebus crew comments Garrus & Tali are pretty adamant they join because of him, work for him and ready to betray cerebus at his word. Dr. Chakwas also expresses similar disdain for cerebus and that she is there for him. Ken and Gabby also state they left the alliance when they swept the reaper threat under a rug and discredited sheperd. I have no doubts these crew members are loyal not to cerebus but Sheperd.

Mordin joined for the challenge of fighting the collector, I in no way see him working for a pro-human organization bordering on anti-alien. Similar to Thanes reasoning though his reasons stem more from a redemption pov.

Grunt is out for grunt he respects sheperd and would turn on cerebus in a sec if they made a move against Sheperd.

Kasumi, money talks and she owes you one. Same for Zaeed.

Legion will follow Sheperd commander until he goes home, probably taking every opportunity to spy on cerebus.

Jack out for self unless you romance her, but no way in H, e double L is she pro cerebus.

joker is out for self and ship, period.
Both Morinth and Samara have self serving interest.

Leaves Miranda & Jacob. They were with cerebus from the beginning(shep wakes up).

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 02 juin 2011 - 10:06 .

[whywhywhywhy]

MisterJB wrote...



Shepard called Saren a traitor, he was correct. Shepard said the Geth fleet would attack, he was correct. Shepard said Saren was looking for the Conduit, he was correct.
Starting to see a tendency here? The least they owed Shepard was a bit of trust after all he did.
And you are actually loyal to these people? Because you said a few words? What did they ever do for Shepard?
Put his name foward as a Spectre? Only because it would serve their own purposes. 

 
I agree

MisterJB wrote...

Sigh. You are giving too much importance to Shepard being given the Normandy or agreeing to investigate 
Freedom's progress.
The only time Shepard could have "escaped from Cerberus's clutches and returned to the Alliance" was on Freedom's Progress (because it was the only time he knew where the hell he was) and even then it would involve shooting Miranda (the person who brough him back to life, mind you) and Jacob and hoping that the Quarians would give him a lift off world. That or shoot everyone on the second Lazarus Station and hope that he can find a comm chanel and contact the Alliance or a ship that he can somehow fly by himself before TIM detonates the station remotelly.

got to admit on my first or second play through, given the option that's exactly what I would have done.

MisterJB wrote...

How do you want him to seek the Alliance before he was given the Normandy?
 

 stolen shuttle

not that I don't understand your point but when I first played through the game I was looking for every option to escape and I was disappointed when I had no way to.

[MisterJB]

whywhywhywhy wrote...
  stolen shuttle

Shuttles can't interact with Mass Relays.

[Siansonea]

MisterJB wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Cerberus serves its own agenda, and who knows what that is (besides the Illusive Man, of course)?

If you don't believe ANYTHING the Illusive Man says, we're not going anywhere. At the end of the game, he just comes out and says "human domination". It doesn't get much worse than that but you still think he was lying. Judge Cerberus by its action then, obviously they have always been with the best interests of humanity in mind. For example, puting a radical xenophobe as the leader of Terra Firma.


I can just as easily claim that Hackett knew exactly what Kenson intended on doing and just wanted to use Shepard as a scapegoat.

Could be. I have issues with Hackett too. But that's a totally separate thing. 

that they're a bunch of criminals who will kill and torture Alliance personnel just to satisfy some scientific curiosity.

Yes, because Toombs is clearly the best person to tell us why he was being experimented upon. It couldn't have been to increase human resistance to Tresher Maw acid. No, it was a scientific curiosity.

So, it's okay to kidnap people and test them for resistance to Thresher Maw acid? Against their will? Human subjects? Alliance Marines? REALLY????? Your last name wouldn't be "Mengele" would it? Seriously, you have GOT to be kidding. "It's perfectly okay to commit atrocities if we could learn something valuable in the process." I think I may have broken my nose, I facepalmed so hard. I just don't get you at all.

And we're supposed to just trust him?

I don't trust him on a personal level but I do trust him to have humanity's best interests at heart. He has been doing this for a long time and has many followers. Clearly, he is doing something rigth for humanity.

Moammar Ghadafi has been doing what he's doing for a long time, and has many followers, clearly he's doing something right for humanity. Seriously that is NOT a compelling argument AT ALL.

And Shepard actually does do everything TIM tells him to. Dossiers? Check. Does Shepard try to recruit anyone who hasn't been vetted by the Illusive Man first? Nope. Even Tali and Garrus are recruitable only after TIM gives the thumbs-up. Horizon? Check—and Shepard even discovers that it was a setup by the Illusive Man. More dossiers? Yes sir, Illusive Man sir. Collector Ship? Check—wait, another setup by the Illusive Man? No problem. Derelict Reaper? Okay, sign me up. It's only at the very end of the Suicide Mission, that Shepard even has the option of openly defying the Illusive Man. Seriously, Shepard acts like a complete idiot throughout the entire story—or like someone who has been implanted with a Cerberus control chip.

And how is that any different from doing the Alliance's dirty work? And then they grounded Shepard.
The Alliance is no more trushworthy that Cerberus, they'll both use Shepard or need I remind you about "Arrival" and the trial.

This isn't about the Alliance being Perfect  and Cerberus being Always In The Wrong. It's about Shepard's loyalty to the Alliance, and how quickly and easily it was brushed aside to work with Cerberus at the beginning of ME2. BEFORE Arrival. Seriously, how many time-indicating prepositions do I have to use...

And all I said was that Shepard should only come around to the idea of working with Cerberus AFTER (after—sequence of events...) giving the Alliance a chance and explaining everything he saw on Freedom's Progress FIRST (before—sequence of events...). Cerberus should be Plan B, not Plan A. 

But by killing Miranda and Jacob and going with the Quarian you are left without plan B, Cerberus, and if/once plan A, the Alliance, turns on you, you're screwed.

Killing Miranda and Jacob is only necessary if they try to stop Shepard from going with the quarians. If they don't, they are free to return to wherever they were. And at that point, Shepard shouldn't be considering Cerberus as a contingency anyway, he should only come to that way of thinking AFTER the Alliance stonewalls him. Again, SEQUENCE OF FREAKIN' EVENTS. You just don't get it at all do you? You are judging everything from a third-person omniscient perspective, and that is a failure of logic when dealing with the personal motivations of a character with limited knowledge of circumstances.


But you know what? WHATEVER. You're a Cerberus cheerleader, and nothing I say will ever change that, and none of your faulty logic is going to convince me that they're anything but a bunch of brutal killers who just happened to have a worthwhile goal in stopping the Collectors that one time. I'm not going to give them a Nobel Peace Prize. Shepard is an Alliance Marine working for an avowed enemy of the Council and the Alliance, and he should have been arrested as soon as the Normandy SR2 showed up on the Citadel, and so should Joker, Dr. Chakwas, and Jacob Taylor. But the Alliance was a lot more lenient than I would have been. 


I'm done trying to reason with you. Once you understand the difference between subjectivity, objectivity and the linear nature of time MAYBE we can try again, but as long as you're using fail logic like this and "it's okay to expose children to dangerous substances if a small percentage of them are biotics and even though the rest either die or are severely harmed" and "experimenting on captives is fine if you might learn something useful", then we're just going to have to "agree to disagree". 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 juin 2011 - 11:46 .

[MisterJB]

I'm just going to repost this:

Joker witnessed Shepard being spaced, logic dictates he would relate this to the Alliance. Shepard is missing for two years and then suddenly return, logic dictates that the Alliance will want to know where he was.
This is logic, I don't need to play the game first to know this.

The Alliance migth trust Shepard or, they migth not. If they don't, they'll incarcerate Shepard until he tells them the truth. And our colonies will still be disapearing.
In this situation, it's a good idea to have some backup. Cerberus. These are all conclusions that Shepard can reach before he is stone wallked by the Council.

And maybe then you'll understand why Shepard should be careful dealing with the Alliance. Otherwise, I give up.

The world really works in Black and White to you, doesn't it?

[Siansonea]

Yep. Shades of grey are often just people trying to rationalize their own self-interest. And none of the examples you mention are even particularly grey by the standards of you "shades of grey" types. They're pretty much black. Poisoning children in the womb in order to improve the odds that a few of them might be biotics: Not a shade of grey. Torturing a captive to learn more about Thresher Maw acid: Not a shade of grey. You clearly have no morals or ethics whatsoever. And that's fine if that's your thing, but don't kid yourself that you're actually a moral or ethical person.

[MisterJB]

By creating Biotics we get better soldiers, less humans will die if we have to go to war with one of the other races. Biotics also allow us to expand our interests in the Galaxy, pressure the Council to give us more worlds to colonize, thus giving better quality of life to thousand of humans.
Grey

For the record, I do not aprove of forcing the tests on Toombs but it's justifiable if, in the future, all humans are able to withstand acid.
I wouldn't foce those experiments on anyone but it's still a grey area.
Maybe I'm not a moral person but I also have lines I wouldn't cross.

And there are other examples I mentioned.
Experimenting on Husks and Creeper allows us to create expendable troops which would save many human lifes. Husks and Creepers are already dead, how is that not a grey area?
As long as we don't purposelly turn them into such, ofc.

[Heimdall]

MisterJB wrote...

By creating Biotics we get better soldiers, less humans will die if we have to go to war with one of the other races. Biotics also allow us to expand our interests in the Galaxy, pressure the Council to give us more worlds to colonize, thus giving better quality of life to thousand of humans.
Grey

For the record, I do not aprove of forcing the tests on Toombs but it's justifiable if, in the future, all humans are able to withstand acid.
I wouldn't foce those experiments on anyone but it's still a grey area.
Maybe I'm not a moral person but I also have lines I wouldn't cross.

And there are other examples I mentioned.
Experimenting on Husks and Creeper allows us to create expendable troops which would save many human lifes. Husks and Creepers are already dead, how is that not a grey area?
As long as we don't purposelly turn them into such, ofc.

  Creepers were never even originally human.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 03 juin 2011 - 05:00 .

[MisterJB]

If we managed to gain control over an army of Husks or Creepers, we could even send them inside the Reapers to destroy their Cores. There would be no risk of indocrination.

[vanslyke85]

MisterJB wrote...

If we managed to gain control over an army of Husks or Creepers, we could even send them inside the Reapers to destroy their Cores. There would be no risk of indocrination.

Those would be good shock troops for sure. 

[Iakus]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

It's what? 200 years in the future with the boost from Prothean and alien tech?
I have to think we could un-jerky a human brain by then.

Prothean tech gave humanity mass effect fields, eezo, and biotics.  Thus the ability to manipulate mass and gravity.  I can't for the life of me figure out how that could be used to reconstruct a brain.

To be honest, when Ash suggests that Cerberus is manipulating Shepard somehow, it actually gave me pause to wonder if TIM somehow lied about Shepard, that maybe Shep isn't Shep or there is a control chip of some kind keeping him from saying or doing something to ally with the Alliance.  It would certainly explain a few things.

I really wish SHepard could have talked to Chakwas or Mordin about that. 

[Weiser_Cain]

iakus wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

It's what? 200 years in the future with the boost from Prothean and alien tech?
I have to think we could un-jerky a human brain by then.

Prothean tech gave humanity mass effect fields, eezo, and biotics.  Thus the ability to manipulate mass and gravity.  I can't for the life of me figure out how that could be used to reconstruct a brain.

To be honest, when Ash suggests that Cerberus is manipulating Shepard somehow, it actually gave me pause to wonder if TIM somehow lied about Shepard, that maybe Shep isn't Shep or there is a control chip of some kind keeping him from saying or doing something to ally with the Alliance.  It would certainly explain a few things.

I really wish SHepard could have talked to Chakwas or Mordin about that. 

Advances in one field are never isolated. The ability to build mass effect generators small enough to be implanted (I'm assuming it's complex) means we can build almost anything on a scale so small it would change everything in ways no science fiction series (including this one) has shown. Every human would be a virtual superhero.
More back on topic, Miranda apparently did want to put some kind of controlling chip in Shepard but the Illusive Man vetoed that idea. No, you can blame Shepards actions, especially early on... on the railroad plot.

And anyway you're ignoring however many years of normal human technical advancement that we'd need to be exploring Mars in the first place befopre we got derailed by prothean (reaper?) tech.

[TheRevanchist]

MisterJB wrote...

By creating Biotics we get better soldiers, less humans will die if we have to go to war with one of the other races. Biotics also allow us to expand our interests in the Galaxy, pressure the Council to give us more worlds to colonize, thus giving better quality of life to thousand of humans.
Grey

For the record, I do not aprove of forcing the tests on Toombs but it's justifiable if, in the future, all humans are able to withstand acid.
I wouldn't foce those experiments on anyone but it's still a grey area.
Maybe I'm not a moral person but I also have lines I wouldn't cross.

And there are other examples I mentioned.
Experimenting on Husks and Creeper allows us to create expendable troops which would save many human lifes. Husks and Creepers are already dead, how is that not a grey area?
As long as we don't purposelly turn them into such, ofc.

And by "exposeing" these unborn children to eezo...you lose more lives to cancer and whatever else it causes then you save by having a few extra biotics around. Also for the record...ALL Husks were once organic lifeforms...they can't just be mass produced on an assembly line to be used as shock troops unless you have a whole field of Dragon's Teeth to sacrifice people to the cause.

Clearly they don't want Shepard dead? ME3's calling...it wants to speak to you...

For the record...The Allience didn't ground Shepard...Ambassador Udina did just to score bonus points in his endless attempts to be named the first human councilor.
These actions are not very "Grey"...Templars VS Mages before DA2 came out was "Grey"...because both sides were correct. However DA2 only proves the Templar's right...but thats another issue...

You have to keep in mind....the Allience don't know everything the player does...they don't have an omiscent third person perpesctive...in fact The Allience knows little to nothing about what Shepard is doing. They have NO IDEA what happend during the events of Arrivel...all they know is that Shepard blew up a Mass Relay and killed 300,000 people....which alone without context sounds like terrorism...so a trial I think is being leanient. 

Yes...Shepard was right about Saren...however that was supported by undenyable evidence...He was right about the Geth attack on the Citadel...but again theres evidence due to the Geth being all over the place in Council Space through-out...Not to mention two previous assaults on colonys and the discovery of a top seceret base with a Krogan army. 

However...Shepard has NEVER been able to actually PROVE the Reaper's exsist...from their perspective hes just running around like Paul Reveir screaming "The Reaper's are Coming The Reaper's are Coming!!" However he has nothing to actually PROVE this...if he did the Council and Allience would be MORE then happy to do everything in their power to take precautions. Sure Soverign attacked the Citadel...however they told you since most of the ship was basiclly stolen before they would recover it makes verifiying it's origins damn near impossible...what WAS found resembled Geth technology...and considering the Geth are capable of amazeing technological advancments it only made sence given their situation. Now granted...if the Asari Counsilor would just mind meld with Shepard all of this would be avoided, but sadly the logical option isn't available. 

Also the Quarians have every right in the universe to hate Cerberus guts...which tranlates very poorly into the ease Tali has of docking...TIM just plain and simply don't give a s*** about the cost of his actions and thinks ANY price is worth it. He freely admitted his experiments on Paul was about personal revenge for betrayel. The attack on the Migrant Fleet as another selfish move by TIM to re-secure a valuable "asset"...he didn't give a flying **** about the fallout it might cause...they just go in guns blazeing. TIM said "Diplomacy is great when it works" yet never even attempts it. Many people think what Shepard says at the end of the game is moronic and stupid. "I'll do it without sacrificeing the soul of our species to do it" and just counter with a response like "Cerberus aren't the Reapers so STFU" is basicly the response. Many fail to realize how important Shepards sentament is...if your willing to  just forgo ALL ethics and morals to achive progress what is the point of fighting? If you use the methods of your enemies in order to defeat your enemies your no better than them. 

The Allience "abadoning" those colonists? I beg to differ...they deliberatly LEFT The Allience because they don't "like how they do things". The Allience has no obligation to assist people who want nothing to do with them, however they attempted to help Horizen regardless. Not to mention the Allience investigates every single attacked colony trying to figure out wtf is going on. The Allience does not act because they don't know where to start...Cerberus however does...and absolutely refuses to tell The Allience any damn thing, despite the fact they have spies in every level of The Allience government (or so they claim). Also they don't "Shoot Shepard down". Shepard didn't actually bring Veetor's data with him to prove any of it. So again it falls on a lack of proof.  

[TheRevanchist]

vanslyke85 wrote...

We'll see...I may have to do a new play through and romance Ash, maybe I'll feel differently about the situation. If I did that then I would understand her reaction more so since the only thing I can come up with to say is worse than what a 7th grader would say to his girlfriend he hadn't seen for the summer. kylecouch's new options are much better lol

[MisterJB]

kylecouch wrote...

And by "exposeing" these unborn children to eezo...you lose more lives to cancer and whatever else it causes then you save by having a few extra biotics around. Also for the record... 

I did explain that by creating human biotic we can gain more worlds to colonize, rigth? You're telling me you wouldn't trade those unborn children for entire planets for the human race?
Besides, as time goes one we'll be able to diminish the risks involved.

ALL Husks were once organic lifeforms...they can't just be mass produced on an assembly line to be used as shock troops unless you have a whole field of Dragon's Teeth to sacrifice people to the cause.  

I distinctly remember figthing hordes of Husks. So, instead of just killing them, let's capture them.
We still get our shock troops and we didn't sacrifice anyone in the process.

Clearly they don't want Shepard dead? ME3's calling...it wants to speak to you...

Actually, it's for you. It's saying that we don't yet know why Cerberus is after Shepard or what they want to do with him.

all they know is that Shepard blew up a Mass Relay and killed 300,000 people....which alone without context sounds like terrorism...so a trial I think is being leanient.

Actually, they do. Shepard wrote a report and at least Admiral Hackett believes in Shepard.
Obviously, they'll have to call Shepard a liar and punish him in order to improve human-batarian relation.
I'm not saying that I don't agree with the trial because, even tough it was the only way to stop the Reapers, Shepard had no authority to do what he did. However, this proves that the Alliance doesn't has Shepard's back.

Yes...Shepard was right about Saren...however that was supported by undenyable evidence...He was right about the Geth attack on the Citadel...but again theres evidence due to the Geth being all over the place in Council Space through-out...Not to mention two previous assaults on colonys and the discovery of a top seceret base with a Krogan army. 

However...Shepard has NEVER been able to actually PROVE the Reaper's exsist...from their perspective hes just running around like Paul Reveir screaming "The Reaper's are Coming The Reaper's are Coming!!" However he has nothing to actually PROVE this...if he did the Council and Allience would be MORE then happy to do everything in their power to take precautions. 

That shows how close-minded the Council and the Alliance are. I understand why they don't want to believe the Reapers exist, I really do.
However, at the end of the day, it's Cerberus who was willing to act and take a risk in case Shepard's warning were true.
I also understand that Cerberus is a clandestine organization and thus, not responsible for the lifes of billions, but I still respect Cerberus a lot more than the Council or Alliance. 

if the Asari Counsilor would just mind meld with Shepard all of this would be avoided, but sadly the logical option isn't available. 

It wouldn't help. The only reason Liara was able to make sense of the vision was because she spent over 50 years studying the Protheans.

if your willing to  just forgo ALL ethics and morals to achive progress what is the point of fighting? If you use the methods of your enemies in order to defeat your enemies your no better than them.

I agree. It migth surprise you but I always destroy the Base.

The Allience "abadoning" those colonists? I beg to differ...they deliberatly LEFT The Allience because they don't "like how they do things".

Even if they did, they are still human. If the Alliance is not willing to defy the Council and enter the Termynus System, that's what Cerberus is for. Just accept their help.

The Allience has no obligation to assist people who want nothing to do with them, however they attempted to help Horizen regardless.

 A few turrets that can't shoot straigth and a soldier. And only because Cerberus let out the rumour that Shepard would be on the colony soon.
Forgive me if I'm not impressed.

Not to mention the Allience investigates every single attacked colony trying to figure out wtf is going on. The Allience does not act because they don't know where to start...Cerberus however does...and absolutely refuses to tell The Allience any damn thing, despite the fact they have spies in every level of The Allience government (or so they claim). Also they don't "Shoot Shepard down". Shepard didn't actually bring Veetor's data with him to prove any of it. So again it falls on a lack of proof.

That's probrably because the Alliance has the bad habit of shooting on sigth when it involves Cerberus. Miranda says it herself in the beginning of the game, the Alliance or the Council would never accept Cerberus's help.
Even when proof has been provided and there are dozens of Collector corpses lying around in Horizon, the VS is much more willing to believe that Cerberus is working with the Collectors and, by extension, the Reapers.
No, sorry. Cerberus is not the friendliest group around but this is ridiculous.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 juin 2011 - 02:44 .

[Dean_the_Young]

MisterJB wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Cerberus serves its own agenda, and who knows what that is (besides the Illusive Man, of course)?

If you don't believe ANYTHING the Illusive Man says, we're not going anywhere. At the end of the game, he just comes out and says "human domination". It doesn't get much worse than that but you still think he was lying.
Judge Cerberus by its action then, obviously they have always been with the best interests of humanity in mind. For example, puting a radical xenophobe as the leader of Terra Firma.

I don't have the time to really read much else, but (a) Charles really doesn't qualify as a radical xenophobe, and ( we've no basis to claim that Charles was worse than the alternative (the one TIM killed).

[TheRevanchist]

Actually Charles seems like a moderate...a true representivtive of what Terra Firma stands for...he don't seem to hate aliens...just wants to make sure Earth is ready to go it without their help. he admits many in Terra Firma are just racists...however he don't seem like one of those people.