16 réponses à ce sujet

[C Barchuk]

I know it's widely accepted that fighter/thieves are better backstabbers and general fighters than assassins due to reasons that have been pointed out time and time again even though I personally really dig the assassin kit. I recently added the rogue rebalancing mod that adds the new and improved short sword of backstabbing with a +3 version for SoA and then a +5 version for ToB. I had a few questions about this:

1. This would give the assassin a X8 backstab multiplier. Does this weapon make the assassin more viable compared to the fighter/thief?

2. I usually dual wield with a fighter/thief using katanas and scimtars. Is worth swapping out the celestial fury for the improved short sword backstabbing? Though I haven't tried it out yet, seems your backstabs would be better9 (x6) though general damage would lower I think.

Just curious. Thinking of playing an assassin or fighter/thief again just to try out this sweet weapon.

[Ishad Nha]

Celestial Fury should be equipped by someone at all times, it really stuns the monsters.

More viable backstabbing has two parameters, THAC0 and damage dealt out.
Thief THAC0 increases at only half the rate of Fighter THAC0. Depends what other weapons are available to the the Thief. Presumably they are about the same "plus". Fighter/Thief should be ahead in THAC0, even after the multiclass lag in xp becomes a problem at higher levels.
Damage: "Assassin - Backstab reaches x7 instead of x5."
Does the Short Sword of Backstabbing add any levels of backstabbing damage? Is it only usable by Assassins?
At higher levels the multiclassing of the Fighter/Thief will cause him to fall behind the Assassin in Thief levels. Assassin should be ahead in damage done.

[C Barchuk]

Hey Ishad Nha. Thanks for the response. The improved short sword of backstabbing can only be used by thieves so both the assassin and fighter/thief can use it. Its SoA version stats are:

It's a +3 short sword with a speed factor of 0 just like the original. In the hands of a thief it raises the backstab multiplier by 1 and gives a +2 to THACO.

I know threads like this have been done many times over and I've read through all of them. I just can't seem to decided what to go with. I end up going back and forth. The assassin feels more like..well...an assassin in which I usually open up with a backstab and then I will hide and backstab again or change over to the crimson dart +3 and attack from ranged all the while using poison. The fighter/thief feels tougher generally speaking cause I can fight toe to toe but I seem to end up playing it more like a fighter at times. But I do remember a while back when I took my assassin through ToB, he felt practically useless cause it seemed most of the monsters could see through stealth, were immune to backstab, and were immune to poison. That sucked let me tell ya. At that point he was just a plain o' thief hanging back throwing darts. So I do like some of the options the fighter/thief brings to the table but I love the backstabbing of the assassin and poison. So there ya go. Not sure why I can't seem to settle on one or the other. Kind of irritating actually...lol.

[Dante2377]

lets assume for a fully leveled assassin (x7) and f/t (x5) along with specialization for the f/t
ave hit die of damage is 5.5 for a d10 and 3.5 for a d6

f/t
celestial fury 5.5 + 3 (weapon) + 2(specialization) = 10.5x5 = 52.5 ave before strength
st sword of bs = 3.5 + 3 + 2 =8.5x6 = 51 ave before strength

not much difference, although there is a speed factor (CF is 1 not zero, but shouldn't be a big deal). If you're not swapping between using single weapon (for double critical chance) and then to dual wielding, not much of a backstabbing difference, although you'll see more variance in damage with fury.

assassin (no specialization)
celestial fury 5.5 + 3 (weapon) +1 (kit) = 9.5x7 = 66.5 ave before strength
st sword of bs = 3.5 + 3 +1 (kit) =7.5 x8 = 60 ave before strength

not counting items, there is also a 4 pt damage difference from 18 and 18/00 strength.

That's just for fully leveled, if you wanted to compare at a given XP level, just figure out what each characters level (and thus backstab multiplier) is and do the same as above.

the calcs above also assume you hit at the same chance, obv the F/T will have better thaco, but at a certain point it won't matter. the real question is that point too far along where most of the powerful enemies are immune to backstab.

EDIT - forgot the +1 damage from the assassin kit.  So the assassin ends up about 20-25% more backstab damage prior to strength add-in, fully leveled with those weapons.

Modifié par Dante2377, 02 juin 2011 - 08:34 .

[C Barchuk]

Wow, not much of difference. So if my F/T is dual wielding should go with CF in the main hand and the Short Sword of Backstabbing in the off? Or is still better to use Kundane or Belm in the off hand for the extra attack?

I'm still completely flabbergasted by those numbers. I thought a full developed assassin, single wielding the short sword of backstabbing, would be light years ahead of the fighter/thief on backstab damage. Man that is a disappointment. I've been misinformed all this time. Fighter/Thief it is then. Thanks for the help as well as the number crunching. It really puts things into perspective.

[C Barchuk]

I just realized I posted this in the wrong forum. Sorry about that.

[Dante2377]

the extra 2 pts of specialization that get multiplied by 5 (or 6 if modified SSoB) really even it out for the F/T. If you're using multiclass and true grandmastery it can change even more toward that way.

Remember though, that's for fully leveled characters above (or at least enough to reach max backstab level). A true comparison though would compare the XP at a given time - that might push it back into the assassin's favor until higher levels when both reach max backstab.

EDIT - I forgot the Assassin kit gets +1 to hit and dmg, ill edit my post above.

Modifié par Dante2377, 02 juin 2011 - 08:31 .

[C Barchuk]

So the assassin does do more backstab. Dante, thanks again for the comparison. The assassin is more of a niche kit but I really dig the feel and flavor of it for sure. But even if the opponent is immune to backstab, that's where poison and/or using a ranged weapon comes into play. But still the difference in damage isn't much and the F/T will hit more often as well as stand toe to toe. Decisions, decisions...

[Thailog]

Since you're playing with Rogue Rebalancing, go with the Assassin for the unique kit abilities. In particular, I found Death Attack a very cool addition during one of my runs. The generic F/T may be more powerful overall, but the Assassin is a lot more fun to play.

Also, if you want an easier start, Id suggest going with a Half-Orc and getting 19 strength right away. Your backstabs will do much more damage in the beginning and the THAC0 bonus from high STR will help as well. Later on, go with dual-wielding and keep the Short Sword of Backstabbing in your off hand.

[Ishad Nha]

I have never backstabbed yet. I was into Fireball, now it is Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting. My Rogue is also an Archer. Celestial Fury is more my style. Each to his own sort of thing.

[C Barchuk]

Hey Thailog. I read your chronicles of Gar and it was an awesome read man. Felt like I was reading some great novel or something. What's the new assassin kit like in the rogue rebalancing mod? Towards the end of the game, what were you using in your main hand? What other gear and items were you using? Just curious man, thanks for the reply.

[Thailog]

I'm not really sure, it's been a while and I don't have the saves from that run anymore.

As I recall, my main char dual wielded Celestial Fury and the Short Sword of Backstabbing most of the time. He also used a poisonous short sword and some other gear from the battle with the Cyricists which the Rogue Rebalancing adds.

[C Barchuk]

Lol, I just realized that your Gar runthrough was 10 months ago. If you can remember, how was your overall experience with the new assassin kit? I'm going to try one as well. Just wanted to get your thoughts. If you can't remember, no biggie. I appreciate your feedback nonetheless and I throughly enjoyed your story. Have you done any other no reloads or minimal reloads runthroughs since then?

[Thailog]

C Barchuk wrote...

Lol, I just realized that your Gar runthrough was 10 months ago. If you can remember, how was your overall experience with the new assassin kit? I'm going to try one as well. Just wanted to get your thoughts. If you can't remember, no biggie.

I remember that I enjoyed using Death Attack which deals a ton of damage when coupled with an 8x backstab since it makes you auto-crit for one hit. Those backstabs were sometimes dealing over 200 damage!

I appreciate your feedback nonetheless and I throughly enjoyed your story. Have you done any other no reloads or minimal reloads runthroughs since then?

Thanks, I'm glad you found it helpful.

My most recent no-reload attempts were with Tyrus (a berserker) and Grimm (a wizard slayer). Unfortunately, neither of them made it to the end.

Modifié par Thailog, 06 juin 2011 - 01:57 .

[C Barchuk]

Hey Thailog, where did you get that portrait for Gar? I'm thinking of rolling a half-orc assassin myself and I would love to use that same portrait. It's sweet. Thanks man

[Thailog]

I made it from a pic I found somewhere on the net, as I do with most of my portraits. It's pretty easy, all you need to do is crop and re-size it properly and then convert it to BMP format.

Anyway, I've uploaded the portrait to photobucket so you can use it if you like.

[C Barchuk]

Thanks a bunch Thai, I appreciated bud