Guest_Saphra Deden_*
thurmanator692 wrote...
If Legion is to be trusted at all, then it sounds as if the geth havn't given Rannoch back simply because the quarians haven't asked or tried making contact at all for that matter
Guest_thurmanator692_*
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
thurmanator692 wrote...
The whole situation is a powder keg, i guess. I could see it working out peacefully, given time, but time is something nobody has, i guess
If I had to make an unfounded guess, I expect that mutual peace will be impossible of the Heretic Geth were converted and their views assimilated. As the Heretics return and influence the Geth, when push comes to shove you have a choice between a stronger Geth OR the Quarians, but the Heretic influence blocks the path of compromise.Saphra Deden wrote...
thurmanator692 wrote...
If Legion is to be trusted at all, then it sounds as if the geth havn't given Rannoch back simply because the quarians haven't asked or tried making contact at all for that matter
Legion also makes it clear that the geth regard the quarians as a threat. If the quarians asked they'd either get silence or gun shots in return.
Guest_thurmanator692_*
Saphra Deden wrote...
thurmanator692 wrote...
If Legion is to be trusted at all, then it sounds as if the geth havn't given Rannoch back simply because the quarians haven't asked or tried making contact at all for that matter
Legion also makes it clear that the geth regard the quarians as a threat. If the quarians asked they'd either get silence or gun shots in return.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
If the Quarian population can be placed somewhere temporarily, the Migrant Fleet provides three incredibly useful opportunities, all of which combined can be incredibly potent.
1) Logistical lift (military) ...
2) Logistical lift (evacuation) ...
3) Disposable firing platform ...
ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Saphra Deden wrote...
thurmanator692 wrote...
If Legion is to be trusted at all, then it sounds as if the geth havn't given Rannoch back simply because the quarians haven't asked or tried making contact at all for that matter
Legion also makes it clear that the geth regard the quarians as a threat. If the quarians asked they'd either get silence or gun shots in return.
The Geth view the Quarians as a threat because that's what they are. They still have fancy dreams of either enslaving them ore destroying them all. Do you blame the Geth for viewing someone whoose happy dream is to see you dead as a threat?
He makes it very clear that peace can only happen if all the Quarians want to have peace and not Geth destruction/enslavement. If there were less Xens in the Fleet and more Qwib-Qwibs than the Geth might view them differently.
SIPES13 wrote...
Here's to hoping the Quarians put the Geth back in their place.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
If the Quarian population can be placed somewhere temporarily, the Migrant Fleet provides three incredibly useful opportunities, all of which combined can be incredibly potent.naledgeborn wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
I fully agree with your position
What's your take on this Dean? You often make solid points. Maybe you can convince me otherwise, but I have a hard time seeing the Quarians pulling their weight in the coming war against the Reapers.
1) Logistical lift (military)
A ship's value is more than the strength of its hull or its power generator: at its heart, every ship's value is in what it can carry. Some ships carry soldiers who fight. Some ships carry supplies that allow soldiers need to fight. Some ships carry weapons. At their heart, every warship is simply a craft to carry a weapon somewhere else.
The migrant fleet offers the galaxy's best ability to pick up some element of power and take it somewhere relevant. That could be resupplying an Earth on the brink of collapse. That could be ferrying a Krogan army to fight Reapers. That could be providing all the necessary support-craft functions to allow the Citadel fleets to rapidly deploy and sustain any action.
Logistics is war power. The reason the United States remains the military hyper-power in the world today isn't because it has the most people on the ground, not even because it has the best of everything, but because it can be there in the first place. The United States has a better ability to move around the world than anyone else because of unglamorous transports which allow it to take the fight anywhere.
The first massive value of the Migrant Fleet is as a force multiplier for everyone else. The Migrant Fleet can supplement and boost everyone's ability to fight the Reapers, without firing a shot. They can carry your allies better than your allies can carry themselves. They can carry supplies to those allies, and by weight of numbers soak up losses in transit.
The migrant fleet, in a word, changes the single greatest problem of deployment, that of having the vehicles to move with, and replaces it with the much more desirable problem of 'how do I handle this capability'?
2) Logistical lift (evacuation)
While I focused on the direct military applications, the migrant fleet can also act as a significant life savior and diminisher of casualties by the other aspect of logistics: sustenance, aid, and evacuation.
This was someething that's actually already been brought up already in Mass Effect, in Bring Down the Sky: the Migrant Fleet can evacuate a lot of people very quickly. Entire colonies, at the threat of the Reapers, could be picked up and carried to safety in a matter of hours/days, instead of weeks and monthes. On Earth or on Pavlon or Tuchanka anywhere else, entire cities or continents faced with crumbling defenses and approaching Reapers could be flown away to safety.
This isn't only valuable humanitarian reasons, this is valuable for other aspects as well. Every civilian who isn't killed by the Reapers is one who can live on to contribute to the Reapers elsewhere. Every emergency convoy that allows a city to continue fighting for another day is another day the Reapers are tied down, damaged, and occupied.
And every Dunkirk, every salvaged army, of course, is an army with another chance to fight and win.
The Migrant Fleet is an undisputed master of logistical lift, in both cargo and evacuation capacity. The entire Fleet's existence, after all, was based upon that principal.
3) Disposable firing platform
Here's the military application that a lot of people think is irrelevant. Here's the military application I think many people underestimate.
The largest objection that people have to arming and militarizing the Migrant Fleet is that, well, it's old. It isn't as good as modern vessels. It won't last. In a fight between a Turian frigate and a Quarian freighter, Turian wins every time.
But from an engineering perspective, this is irrelevant: all that matters in engineering is the alternative to the situation at hand. A crappy old ship that can't take a shot isn't worse in a situation where no one can take a shot. 'Bad enough' is just as doomed as 'worst.' And since Sovereign rather aptly demonstrated entire cruisers being torn apart in single shots, endurance really isn't a significant advantage for most of the ships of the galaxy. A cruiser that costs fifty times as much for shield one hundred times as strong that still gets gutted in one shot is simply a target that costs fifty times as much.
Moreover, armament is exceptionally feasible for 'lesser' craft with the development of the Thannix. Even fighters can supply the firepower of a cruiser with the Thannix canon, and the Normandy 2 demonstrated the applicability for retrofitting such weapons on ships never designed for them. The development of Thannix is a game-changing technology in its own right: even if only a hundred Quarian vessels are fit to be retrofitted with such, that's a hundred cruiser's worth of firepower, and without meaningful loss of endurance (due ot, well, paper-shields compared to Reapers in the first place).
But the central aspect of all this is that, by and large, there is no necessary mutual exclusivity. A hundred, or a thousand, or ten, Quarian vessels that bring modern/old weapons to the battlefield are a hundred, a thousand, or ten ships you didn't have beforehand, while all the rest of the fleet is still providing awesome logistical power. Quarian ships change the limiting factor from the number of ships to be fielded, to the number of weapons that can be attached. This is an amazing reduction in the costs of power-deployment, and a massive advantage in force addition.
No one expects Quarian ships to go toe to toe with the Reapers. They don't need to. No one to date can. What the Quarian Flotilla brings in terms of military options is the opportunity to bring a lot more guns than you would have otherwise. Is each gun as desirable as a dedicated military craft? No. But then, you don't have the option of a dedicated military craft instead. The Migrant Fleet isn't an 'instead of' factor, it's an addition.
And those are some thoughts. These ignore all suspicion and expectation and possibility that he Quarian-Geth delimma may be resolved by helping Xen take control of the Geth, giving the player access to both the Fleet and Geth forces.
Slidell505 wrote...
If it were real, I think the Quarianas would get their asses handed to them if they fought the geth. In game I wouldn't be surprised to see them win just because of the fandom they have.
Amakiir wrote...
I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a few dozen quarians can hack the geth at this point. Quarians in their prime were unable to reverse the course the geth were on, despite likely having many times their current resources and dealing with a relatively primitive geth collective intellect.
Besides, if a few dozen quarians can hack the geth in such a manner then why can't the Reapers? Each Reaper is effectively billions of minds working in harmony and thinking at light speed. A single Reaper would be able to match years of quarian research on hacking the geth in a matter of seconds.
Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 02 juin 2011 - 10:26 .
Ryzaki wrote...
Mesina2 wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
Mesina2 wrote...
Why do people want Quarian genocide?
That's not pragmatic, that's just evil.
Some people are sick of Quarians.
Myself included.
Feels like a bunch of whiners whenever their planet and the geth are brought up.
And?
How does that make rational to kill them off?
Rational?
It's not rational.
I still want the option.
Or hell just let them get blown up by the Reapers as a distraction. I don't want to waste resources trying to help them is all.
Guest_Aotearas_*
Amakiir wrote...
I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a few dozen quarians can hack the geth at this point. Quarians in their prime were unable to reverse the course the geth were on, despite likely having many times their current resources and dealing with a relatively primitive geth collective intellect.
Besides, if a few dozen quarians can hack the geth in such a manner then why can't the Reapers? Each Reaper is effectively billions of minds working in harmony and thinking at light speed. A single Reaper would be able to match years of quarian research on hacking the geth in a matter of seconds.
That's a fair enough point. I'm not sure how applicable it would be in practice (most groups would reasonably not want the Quarians too familiar with their gear, plus the time to acclimate), but the Quarians could provide exceptional tech-support (fixing weapons, tweaking, salvaging), and even provide a basis for AI-warfare capabilities.Thompson family wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
If the Quarian population can be placed somewhere temporarily, the Migrant Fleet provides three incredibly useful opportunities, all of which combined can be incredibly potent.
1) Logistical lift (military) ...
2) Logistical lift (evacuation) ...
3) Disposable firing platform ...
Agreed on all points. One more to add ...
4) Highly trained crew.
Quarians LIVE on their ships and have wandered the glaxy for 300 years. They know how to navigate. They know all the all the nooks and crannies of explored space. They are a spacefaring species. They're the best "sailors" in the galaxy.
/speculationAmakiir wrote...
I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a few dozen quarians can hack the geth at this point. Quarians in their prime were unable to reverse the course the geth were on, despite likely having many times their current resources and dealing with a relatively primitive geth collective intellect.
Besides, if a few dozen quarians can hack the geth in such a manner then why can't the Reapers? Each Reaper is effectively billions of minds working in harmony and thinking at light speed. A single Reaper would be able to match years of quarian research on hacking the geth in a matter of seconds.
Mesina2 wrote...
So you're basically asking for evil choice just because you don't like them?
You know a lot of people hate choice between Samara and Mornith since there's no pragmatic reason to choose Morinth over Samara.
Morinth is a monster and killing Samara over her is just evil.
Renegade≠Evil
Bioware would drop the ball with that choice.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 juin 2011 - 02:40 .
thurmanator692 wrote...
if i had to choose between having the quarians in a reaper war and having the geth in a reaper war, id pick quarians. Sorry Legion
Ryzaki wrote...
Mesina2 wrote...
So you're basically asking for evil choice just because you don't like them?
You know a lot of people hate choice between Samara and Mornith since there's no pragmatic reason to choose Morinth over Samara.
Morinth is a monster and killing Samara over her is just evil.
Renegade≠Evil
Bioware would drop the ball with that choice.
I hate to burst your bubble but making a sacrifice isn't necessarily evil. (and by god do I hate that word).
There's plenty of pragamatic reasoning to pick Morinth over Samara. Especially when Samara has threatened to kill you.
But of course I'm "evil" for wanting the choice to abandon a limb I feel would hold me back. Whatever. I'll be evil then. Just like killing theRachni is "evil".
BW wouldn't drop the ball with the choice anymore than they dropped the ball ith the Overlord decision.
Besides I already get a "evil" choice in game. All I have to do is side with Legion during his and Tali's fight. The Geth then know about Rael's experiements. I wonder how they're gonna react?
Modifié par Rogue Unit, 02 juin 2011 - 02:53 .
Rogue Unit wrote...
Just want to point out that while Samara has threatened to kill you, Monrith has attempted to kill us. Not only has Morinth tried to kill Shepard once but she doesn't hesitate to try again. I'll take my chance with Samara, thank you.
On topic: I hope the geth hand the quarian's asses to them for a second time. See ya in another 300 years.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 juin 2011 - 03:01 .
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