459 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

I noticed that in Origins, the player could control whether The Warden was religious or not. However, we lack the same control over the protagonist of Dragon Age 2 to determine whether Hawke is Andrastian or not. Hawke's battlecries are supposed to be Andrastian, he says lines of dialogue that make it clear he's Andrastian, and the player has no control over this. It doesn't make any sense to me that this would be the case when Origins provided us with control over the protagonist's religious convictions, or lackthereof. Atheism is a concept that's been around for many centuries, and it's been noted historically all over the world. Thedas is supposed to reflect some aspects of our society, like the comparisons between England and Ferelden, for instance, but it seems this degree of control is gone for the protagonist. I don't understand why this is the case. Why are we denied the right to determine Hawke's religious convictions in an RPG where we're supposed to "create" the character? Why do we have no choice in the matter?

[Mister_Shepard]

It's nothing to gripe about lol

[LobselVith8]

Mister_Shepard wrote...

It's nothing to gripe about lol

It's something to discuss, considering this is general discussions.

[Aesieru]

Because he would be killed off for being blasphemous by any Templar who learned of it.

Kind of like Atheists against the crusaders...

[mesmerizedish]

She can be an atheist. Just don't pick any lines that imply otherwise.

The opacity of the dialogue system makes this difficult, however.

[DiebytheSword]

I was personally annoyed that they didn't have an analog for Mayan religions. I wanted my Hawke to rip out hearts and offer them to the sun god. As a person with Mayan heritage I feel slighted, Mayan gods were worshipped for many, many years. Its not a new concept.

Oh well, I suppose its just one belief amongst many.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 01 juin 2011 - 04:26 .

[Chuvvy]

I've never heard any dialog that implies he does or doesn't believe in the Maker.

[Mister_Shepard]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mister_Shepard wrote...

It's nothing to gripe about lol

It's something to discuss, considering this is general discussions.

Discuss then. No one's stopping you 

[Aesieru]

DiebytheSword wrote...

I was personally annoyed that they didn't have an analog for Mayan religions. I wanted my Hawke to rip out hearts and offer them to the sun god. As a person with Mayan heritage I feel slighted, Mayan gods were worshipped for many, many years. Its not a new concept.

Oh well, I suppose its just one belief amongst many.

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So... jokes aside?

[ipgd]

Pretend Hawke's battle cries are a figure of speech? I'm as militant an atheist as you can get and I still use "oh my god" and "go to hell" et al.

[Aesieru]

Technically you can't... without being hypocritical, actually.

Also be sure not to use "God", even if you're a hypocrite, that's worse because that's Jesus's Father, not just any old "god".

[ipgd]

Aesieru wrote...

Technically you can't... without being hypocritical, actually.

Also be sure not to use "God", even if you're a hypocrite, that's worse because that's Jesus's Father, not just any old "god".

What?

[TheBlackBaron]

The easy fix is to not play Diplomatic!Hawke, and chalk up the rest as figures of speech.

[Aesieru]

ipgd wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Technically you can't... without being hypocritical, actually.

Also be sure not to use "God", even if you're a hypocrite, that's worse because that's Jesus's Father, not just any old "god".

What?


Ahem...

"God" is a name, hence the capitalization, in only one case is it capitalized and only when referring to Old-testament God and New-testament God, which are of course, one and the same, but without the forgiveness because of the 'plan.'

The use of "god"; however, is merely the use of any random deity...

So, to be an Atheist, and yet refer in any capacity to "gods" especially the "God", is hypocritical if not in a discussion based method.

This is merely, how hypocrisy works.

[LobselVith8]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

She can be an atheist. Just don't pick any lines that imply otherwise.

The opacity of the dialogue system makes this difficult, however.

Hawke's battlecries have religious connotations, with the Champion of Kirkwall saying, "May Andraste guide you!" and "Send my regards to The Maker" so we really don't have a choice in the matter.

Mister_Shepard wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's something to discuss, considering this is general discussions.

Discuss then. No one's stopping you  

This might sound strange, but if you didn't want to discuss it, why did you post in this thread?

[kglaser]

DiebytheSword wrote...

I was personally annoyed that they didn't have an analog for Mayan religions. I wanted my Hawke to rip out hearts and offer them to the sun god. As a person with Mayan heritage I feel slighted, Mayan gods were worshipped for many, many years. Its not a new concept.

Oh well, I suppose its just one belief amongst many.

Awesome.

[Zanallen]

I want my Hawke to worship Fen'Harel the Dread Wolf and, in honor of his god, play both factions against each other in an awesome "A Fistful of Dollars" type ploy.

[LobselVith8]

DiebytheSword wrote...

I was personally annoyed that they didn't have an analog for Mayan religions.

The Avvar tribes and the Chasind Wilders believed in a multitude of gods, as the traditional Mayans did.

Slidell505 wrote...

I've never heard any dialog that implies he does or doesn't believe in the Maker.

Hawke confirms his Andrastian beliefs in dialogue with Merrill and Sebastian.

[ipgd]

Aesieru wrote...

Ahem...

"God" is a name, hence the capitalization, in only one case is it capitalized and only when referring to Old-testament God and New-testament God, which are of course, one and the same, but without the forgiveness because of the 'plan.'

The use of "god"; however, is merely the use of any random deity...

So, to be an Atheist, and yet refer in any capacity to "gods" especially the "God", is hypocritical if not in a discussion based method.

This is merely, how hypocrisy works.

That isn't what hypocrisy means, guy. Consult your dictionary.

Regardless, those particular phrases long diverged away from having strong religious connotations. They've divorced themselves from their base etymological parts through repetition until they're practically meaningless apart from their purpose in conveying a specific sentiment not necessarily related to the actual words involved, and they're so pervasive in the language you have to make a conscious effort not to use them. It's a figure of speech.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke's battlecries have religious connotations, with the Champion of Kirkwall saying, "May Andraste guide you!" and "Send my regards to The Maker" so we really don't have a choice in the matter.

Not that much of a stretch to assume that's something like "save me a seat in hell".

Edit: Hell (SEE WHAT I DID THERE), you can pretend Hawke is being sarcastic and mocking religion if you want.

Modifié par ipgd, 01 juin 2011 - 05:02 .

[Leonia]

Don't know what you're talking about, my overly sarcastic Hawke had no Maker-related battlecries and even if she did.. how does that make one religious? Lots of people say "christ" or "jesus" when they stub their toe, does that mean they are damning a god they may or may not believe in?

I'd argue that in Origins you didn't necessarily get to choose your religious-ness, certain Origins just didn't give you an option. You don't see Dalish Wardens converting or dwarves. Actually, dwarves ARE atheists. Regardless, there's no "Check your religion here" on character creation in either game.

You can RP anything you want, you could be a transvestite worshipper of the qun for all we know (not that it would be canon, but hey that's what fanfiction is for).

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 05:02 .

[DiebytheSword]

Aesieru wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

I was personally annoyed that they didn't have an analog for Mayan religions. I wanted my Hawke to rip out hearts and offer them to the sun god. As a person with Mayan heritage I feel slighted, Mayan gods were worshipped for many, many years. Its not a new concept.

Oh well, I suppose its just one belief amongst many.

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So... jokes aside?

I supposed I do owe some interaction for my cheap shot, so I will indulge you

Jokes aside, I do feel for your dilemma.  You want to have a particular philosophy represented and its not.  I've played many, many years of table top RPGs, and I love the freedom that comes with that.  You can do as you like.  Realisitcally, however, you can't achieve this on any kind of computer RPG.  Recording a Hawke, for each gender, and each belief system, would not be feasible, for the same reasons that they restricted race.  I suppose they could ask you what you wanted your hawke to utter in battle, its not unprecidented.  But then you open a can of worms.  Why is there not an Alamari Hawke who believes in tribal spirits?  What about the Hawke who wishes you well on your trip to nirvana for reincarnation's sake?  What about the animist Hawke who apologizes to the flagstone for smearing gibs all over it?  How about the Karashok who was once named Hawke who knows his/her place in the Qun?

My point is, you see it as Religious Hawke vs Atheist Hawke.  It is really a question of what hawke would likely be and a question of how many philosophical bases we can realistically cover.  Bethany is obviously religious, Hawke was born in Andrastian central (think of an Atheist born just outside Mecca, Jerusalem, or the Vatican).  Its highly unlikely that Hawke would be an atheist.  That aside, Atheism is just one philosophical view point amongst many.  It does not automatically gain 50% weight status of the whole just because it opposes all religions.  All other views would also have that same automatic 50% of the whole representation because every other philosophy supposes that it alone is the right one and the only truth.

[mesmerizedish]

Aesieru wrote...

Ahem...

"God" is a name, hence the capitalization, in only one case is it capitalized and only when referring to Old-testament God and New-testament God, which are of course, one and the same, but without the forgiveness because of the 'plan.'

The use of "god"; however, is merely the use of any random deity...

"God" isn't a name. God is a word we use to avoid saying His name, which is YHWH.

[DiebytheSword]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

I was personally annoyed that they didn't have an analog for Mayan religions.

The Avvar tribes and the Chasind Wilders believed in a multitude of gods, as the traditional Mayans did.

Quite true, but I can't make Hawke aknowledge their awesomeness in battle.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

I want my Hawke to worship Fen'Harel the Dread Wolf and, in honor of his god, play both factions against each other in an awesome "A Fistful of Dollars" type ploy.

I prefer the original it was based on, Akira Kurosawa's film Yojimbo.

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke's battlecries have religious connotations, with the Champion of Kirkwall saying, "May Andraste guide you!" and "Send my regards to The Maker" so we really don't have a choice in the matter.

Not that much of a stretch to assume that's something like "save me a seat in hell".

In addition to the confirmation of his Andrastian beliefs in his discussion with Merrill and Sebastian, isn't that simply ignoring what the creators did in making Hawke Andrastian, regardless of how we wanted to handle the protagonist's views?

[mesmerizedish]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In addition to the confirmation of his Andrastian beliefs in his discussion with Merrill and Sebastian, isn't that simply ignoring what the creators did in making Hawke Andrastian, regardless of how we wanted to handle the protagonist's views?

The writers gave my Warden the last name "Mahariel." I ignore that. It's the same. Her name is Claudia Asperanna Aurelia Invicta. Mahariel is what the other elves called her because her real name was too "Latiny" for them.

It's an RPG. The player makes sh*t up all the time. This is no different.