459 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
I know plenty of religious people who believe very strongly in certain major issues "with the exception of me/my family!" but that would be getting into reeel wowld exampuhls that would make people angry

Irrelevent. Not all religious people have to be like this.

You can believe in something very strongly and still violate it repeatedly.

You can also believe in something and not violate it repeadetly, an option that we do not have.

I am not questioning the validity / possibility / plausibility of RPing a hypocrit with a variety in scale. What I am saying is that we can't RP as a strict loyalist.

The door is completely open for a Hawke who believes mages must be controlled but is willing to sin, with or without a healthy dose of self-loathing.

The door should also be open to a Hawke who believes mages must be controlled and is willing to try and apply this belief, and yes with a sibling

Which wouldn't really work, at least as a mage, as it could ruin the whole story, in the way it's set up. But that goes with the idea that mage / non-mage should have had different Origins to help us define them more.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 juin 2011 - 06:13 .

[Ariella]

leonia42 wrote...

Real-life arguments getting in the way of my imaginary fun.

Thedas is NOT a mirror image of the real world, it is based loosely on some of the same ideas but you can't use real world history to explain Thedas.

Lots of atheists are born and raised by "believers". Why is that such a strange idea?

Interesting you air quote, as it were, the word believers. Most of those believers aren't really at all, or are the spare the rod spoil the child kind. In an enviroment where kids are raised lovingly and faith is a daily part of life, children tend to follow their parents example. And it's pretty obvious that a) Hawke's family was a loving unit there was faith there, if not direct practice of every ritual.

Plus, unless one converts to the Qun, there's no philisophical basis for the concept itself in Thedas. Free thinking about religion isn't something that has been encouraged or really exists yet in Thedas.

[Leonia]

What. So loving Christian families always produce well-loved children who will be Christians themselves. My parents were doing it wrong. Makes sense!

I still wish we had an option to convert to the Qun (though I see that more as a lifestyle choice than a religious choice, kind of like Buddhism).

Modifié par leonia42, 01 juin 2011 - 06:20 .

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
I know plenty of religious people who believe very strongly in certain major issues "with the exception of me/my family!" but that would be getting into reeel wowld exampuhls that would make people angry

Irrelevent. Not all religious people have to be like this.

You can believe in something very strongly and still violate it repeatedly.

You can also believe in something and not violate it repeadetly, an option that we do not have.

I am not questioning the validity / possibility / plausibility of RPing a hypocrit with a variety in scale. What I am saying is that we can't RP as a strict loyalist.

Sure. Being consistent isn't an option, but that's different from "true belief" (which you can certainly have without consistency), so this was basically just a semantic argument :innocent:

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

First of all, where does it give that the Warden (if they were human, Dalish or city elves) could not believe in the Maker or elven gods.

 
Cousland Warden, for instance, can say he (or she) doesn't believe in the Maker. All of the Wardens can tell Brother Burkel that they aren't religious. I don't see why you take such an issue with the idea that atheism can happen, even in Thedas.

Ariella wrote...

Second, Morrigan was raised OUTSIDE societial norms by an abomination. Not exactly helpful to your case.

Why does that even matter? Morrigan is proof that an atheist exists in Thedas. Avernus' dialogue gives me the impression that he doesn't believe in the Maker. The Warden can explicitly say he (or she) doesn't believe in the Maker. Aveline can say she doesn't believe in the Chant, and it's argued whether that means she's an atheist or that she has agnostic views.

Ariella wrote...

Aveline doesn't believe in the Chant, but she never comes out and says she doesn't believe in the Maker.

In other words, Aveline doesn't adhere to the religious atttiudes of her Andrastian upbringing. Why do you think it can't it be the same for Hawke?

Ariella wrote...

 There, however, is no indication that there was EVER in Hawke's family life a reason for Hawke to being to disbelieve.

This pertains to Hawke's views, so it's independent of his family's views.

Ariella wrote...

And there's a substancial difference between doubting or questioning God or, the Marker in this case, and doubting He exists.

There's no reason Hawke couldn't be an atheist, regardless of the social and religious upbringing that he's received with Malcolm and Leandra.

Ariella wrote...

Atheism isn't about not adherring to religious doctrine. There's a difference between FAITH and doctrine. I don't keep kosher, yet I believe in God, and I don't go to temple every Saturday but I consider myself a Jew.

I'm well aware of what atheism is, and having a debate on word usage doesn't actually change the fact that there's no reason Hawke can't be an atheist, regardless of his upbringing.

Ariella wrote...

But even Morrigan's "atheism" can be questioned considering she believes in the Old Gods. She doesn't worship them, but she believes.

Everyone believes in the Old Gods, but not everyone believes they are deities meant to be worshipped.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
 so this was basically just a semantic argument :innocent:

I should have said "strict Chantry loyalist" from the start, better way to say it. Mea culpa

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The vids you wanted: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3  

Yay thanks! :happy:

That was good.
Pity that the choice was not refined and explored like it should have.

 

Yeah. I just like the standoff the two have.  

[Pistolized]

So, when John Mclane in Die Hard 1 says "Yippie kay yay M.F.er," it actually reveals that he is a cowboy, and not city-raised after all. This changes everything.

Well, I'll admit I didn't go through the whole thread, but I figured I would add my own anecdote to the pile, as there are surely many that I skipped over.

[LobselVith8]

Ariella wrote...

Interesting you air quote, as it were, the word believers. Most of those believers aren't really at all, or are the spare the rod spoil the child kind. In an enviroment where kids are raised lovingly and faith is a daily part of life, children tend to follow their parents example. And it's pretty obvious that a) Hawke's family was a loving unit there was faith there, if not direct practice of every ritual.

Atheism isn't prohibited simply because a person grew up in a loving home.

Pistolized wrote...

So, when John Mclane in Die Hard 1 says "Yippie kay yay M.F.er," it actually reveals that he is a cowboy, and not city-raised after all. This changes everything.

Well, I'll admit I didn't go through the whole thread, but I figured I would add my own anecdote to the pile, as there are surely many that I skipped over.

I was thinking more along the lines of Hawke's dialogue with Merrill as a LI and Sebastian at the end, although I'd love to hear Hawke say "Yippie kay yay M.F.er!"

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was thinking more along the lines of Hawke's dialogue with Merrill as a LI and Sebastian at the end, although I'd love to hear Hawke say "Yippie kay yay M.F.er!"

Do you have any links to videos of these instances? I don't remember what was said there.

[MerinTB]

Like Shepard, Hawke is the game designers' character, not your character.

Their Hawke is religious.

Accept that a role-playing game (not trying to get into this) can give you a partially or even mostly pre-established character to play the role of.

It's not your Hawke, and it's not your story. It's Hawke's story and you get to play as him and influence his reactions and, in some small cases, his decisions.

Problem solved.

EDIT - or her, as you can play as a female Hawke as well - you can influence her reactions and decisions.

Modifié par MerinTB, 01 juin 2011 - 06:41 .

[ipgd]

MerinTB wrote...

Like Shepard, Hawke is the game designers' character, not your character.

Their Hawke is religious.

Again, he doesn't have to be.

[ipgd]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Like Shepard, Hawke is the game designers' character, not your character.

Their Hawke is religious.

Again, he doesn't have to be.

I never got that scene. Do you have to visit Elthina after some sort of event to trigger that? If it's in the Exiled Prince DLC, I don't have it.

It's from Anders's act III quest.

[Ariella]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...

There's a different between being non-religious and atheism as a societal norm. [/quote]

People have questioned the existance of the gods and God for centuries in our own history, it's nothing new. Atheism has been around for many centuries, including before the medieval time period of England that Ferelden is very loosely based on.
[/quote]

Again you miss the point. You keep mentioning this medieval period in England. Prove it beyond just a mention as I've never seen ANY mention in any history book I've read of atheism as a real philophy with a following existing until the 1800s... 1700s at the earliest.

[quote]
[quote]Ariella wrote...

Atheism prior to the time period I was referring to was used as a charge like herasy. Christians were once condemned to death in the Roman Empire as atheists. Atheist was an insult up until the 1700s. [/quote]

And scholars have questioned the existance of a higher power for many centuries. We see atheists in Thedas, as others have noted; I don't see why you seem to be disputing this.
[/quote]

We've seen Morrigan who was raised by Flemmeth. A single human not raise in human society, or exposed to human cultural norms.

I'm disputing this because the cultural norms of the society we've been presented with don't allow for an atheistic viewpoint at the moment. Hawke's no scholar, and had no reason to rebel against this specific set of cultural norms (ie belief in the Maker).

[quote]


[quote]Ariella wrote...

But it wasn't until the late 1800s, early 1900s that atheism became soceitial accaptable and a positive concept. [/quote]

Atheists have existed long before the late 1800s and were known publically as atheists, and even some cultures didn't adhere to worship of deities. However, this does not pertain to the discussion at hand about atheism in Thedas.

[/quote]

Rather than taking my quote out of context and using only one sentence use the whole segment:

There's a different between being non-religious and atheism as a
societal norm. Atheism prior to the time period I was referring to was
used as a charge like herasy. Christians were once condemned to death in
the Roman Empire as atheists. Atheist was an insult up until the 1700s.
But it wasn't until the late 1800s, early 1900s that atheism became
soceitial accaptable and a positive concept. We're talking about
societal norms. It would take an extrodinary individual who was raised
outside of those norms (Morrigan) to be able to pull it off in a
reasonable manner.

The point is the atheism you refer to is not the "atheism" of that period, which DOES have relevence because if atheism is going to be used as a term in Thedas, it's most likely going to be used as an accusation by the chantry not an affirmative philosophy.


[quote]Ariella wrote...

And since ES has a completely different history that DA, bringing ES:M up is kinda silly. [/quote]

Bringing up that it's nothing new for protagonists not to be religious isn't silly.
[/quote]

Elder Scrolls is a completely different fantasy world, which a completely different history. Thedas is a heck of a lot closer to the real world in it's religious development. Elder Scrolls does not. 

It's also nothing new for protagists to be religious. I can come up with several myself, but that's a non-argument.

[quote]

[quote]Ariella wrote...

Atheism as an accusation and insult may have but not as an accepted way of thinking or a philopsophical movement. [/quote]

This is historically incorrect since you're addressing certain parts of the world where this isn't universally true and making it seem that it's universally true, and this has no place in a discussion about the fictional world of Thedas, where atheists exist.
[/quote]

Prove it. I'm talking about Western medieval civilization, which is the model for Thedas as it is in the Dragon Age. In that civilzation the societal norm was belief, and atheism considered an aberration. The "atheism" you're talking about in England comes from accusations being tossed back and forth between rivial polito-religious groups during the Age of Enlightenment. The accused were atheists as we consider them today.

[quote]

[quote]Ariella wrote...

If Hawke was raised in a believing home, which seems to be the case, why would Hawke be an atheist? [/quote]

The same reason anyone else is.

[/quote]

Which is what? Change in belief tends to happen with an exposure to new ideas. Where is Hawke, a farmer, later mercenary/smuggler and noble going to be exposed to these ideas? The ONLY exposure to philosophies other than that of the Andrastian Chantry come later from Merrill, Fenris (who talks about the Tevinter Chantry), and the Qunari. There are no major writers talking about defying the Maker and not believing in Him in human society. There are no tectonic changes in the world that would make people doubt the existance of the Maker.

And that's the entire point. Even conversion to the Qun is belief in something, but there's no terrible event that has happened prior to DA 2 to make your average human in Thedas doubt the Maker. This is I brought up those philosophies, and scientific therioes in the first place. They shook the foundation of Western society making grey what was once black and white, in perception. And then the war came, and the terrible destruction perpetrated on humans by other humans (nerve gas, gatling guns, tanks) cause a reevaluation of religion, belief and God on a societal level. This has yet to happen in Thedas, because with very few exceptions, this kind of questioning hasn't even begun to take place on the kind of scale required for what we call atheism today.

[AngelicMachinery]

Ariella wrote...

Interesting you air quote, as it were, the word believers. Most of those believers aren't really at all, or are the spare the rod spoil the child kind. In an enviroment where kids are raised lovingly and faith is a daily part of life, children tend to follow their parents example. And it's pretty obvious that a) Hawke's family was a loving unit there was faith there, if not direct practice of every ritual.

I'm not even sure what to think about this at all,  but for some reason it makes me want to slam my head into the nearest hard object.

[Ariella]

leonia42 wrote...

What. So loving Christian families always produce well-loved children who will be Christians themselves. My parents were doing it wrong. Makes sense!

I still wish we had an option to convert to the Qun (though I see that more as a lifestyle choice than a religious choice, kind of like Buddhism).

Does the word tend, which is what I used in the sentence you responded too, mean always? If so, when did they rewrite the dictionary?

There are always going to be some exceptions, Hawke, however, doesn't fit the profile for one of them, especially in the age she's living in where information is NOT available at one's fingertips.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Ryzaki wrote...

Riight. That's totally why in the Human Noble origin you have the option to tell Mother Mallol (who a elf/dwarf would never speak too) that you "don't believe in the Maker." 

That was 100% a sassy remark.  It's pretty clear.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

LobselVith8 wrote...

[snips Morrigan trolling.

Morrigan was clearly teasing Leliana.

[Ariella]

ipgd wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Like Shepard, Hawke is the game designers' character, not your character.

Their Hawke is religious.

Again, he doesn't have to be.

I never got that scene. Do you have to visit Elthina after some sort of event to trigger that? If it's in the Exiled Prince DLC, I don't have it.

It's from Anders's act III quest.

Actually it's interesting because that IS part of the doctrine of the Chantry (something I always felt was MPD but hey) that on the death of Andraste the Maker abandoned the world a second time, and only by bringing the Chant to the four corners of the world will the Maker return to the world. Lelianna's beliefs that the Maker still hears the prayers of the faithful and answers is the hearasy.

[Ryzaki]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Riight. That's totally why in the Human Noble origin you have the option to tell Mother Mallol (who a elf/dwarf would never speak too) that you "don't believe in the Maker." 

That was 100% a sassy remark.  It's pretty clear.

I said earlier my snark meter was broken! 

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Ryzaki wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Riight. That's totally why in the Human Noble origin you have the option to tell Mother Mallol (who a elf/dwarf would never speak too) that you "don't believe in the Maker." 

That was 100% a sassy remark.  It's pretty clear.

I said earlier my snark meter was broken! 

I meant the noble.  :-)

[Ryzaki]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
I meant the noble.  :-)

 

Now you're just confusing me. 

I really really could've done without Hawke's maker remarks. Did the Warden have any religious remarks? He/she had combat barks as well didn't he/she? 

[Ariella]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Interesting you air quote, as it were, the word believers. Most of those believers aren't really at all, or are the spare the rod spoil the child kind. In an enviroment where kids are raised lovingly and faith is a daily part of life, children tend to follow their parents example. And it's pretty obvious that a) Hawke's family was a loving unit there was faith there, if not direct practice of every ritual.

Atheism isn't prohibited simply because a person grew up in a loving home.

To put it simply: belief begins at home. A person's first socialization is usually the strongest, and that come from childhood. A loving home, where parents treat their children with respect and affection as well as having faith, tend to cement a child's belief into adulthood unless something tramatic happens to change that faith, and even trauma doesn't mean said example will loose faith with trauma.

The kind of "believers" I'm talking about are the ones who aren't really believers at all. They tend to be hypocritical S.O.B.s' who use religion as an excuse to excercise power over their children to abuse them. Thus the huge difference between religion and faith.

[Wulfram]

Hawke is culturally Andrastean. They don't have to believe.